Seven figure success starts when you start thinking like a CEO.
Welcome to the John Kitchens Coach podcast experience as your host, John Kitchens.
Get ready to think bigger and transform your business into
a path to lasting freedom.
What is happening?
Kristen?
Great.
So great to see you.
Um, I was, you know, kind of, kind of thinking back as getting ready for,
for you to jump in here and just.
Kind of at, at that point to where I, I know for us, when we, on the real
estate side of things really started to piece, piece things together
was when we really fully embraced.
Strategy in strategic planning and what the heck does this even mean?
And, you know, really diving deep.
The book for us was mastering the Rockefeller Habits, Verne Harnish's work.
And really just, just embracing it and, and just being a student, just having
faith in the process, just trusting the process because it allowed us to give
a, get a level of clarity to, to like.
Really get a solid plan in place.
I mean, we learned so much and just, you know, navigating the 90 day,
you know, work cycles and, and not drifting and, you know, we spent.
Seven, eight years, just, uh, you know, in, in Vern's world,
um, just, just following to the tee, scaling up comes out.
Just really embracing it and, you know, it got really complex.
I mean, it was like a lot of stuff was challenging and especially what we were
learning and then adapting and then also applying on the coaching side of things
back to other, other real estate agents.
It was, it was way, it was just hard.
It was just flat out hard and then comes along, you know, Gino's work with, with,
um, you know, obviously for most people getting introduced through traction,
being able to, you know, start to apply the tools that he provides in there.
And then really going down the EOS rabbit hole.
Um, and, and, and obviously the, um, you know, getting connected with
Jamie and Strategic Coach getting introduced to you and, and how you
really played an integral part in.
You know, what we were putting together and, and trying to do and,
and really pouring into, you know, my right hand as I see even, even
in the real estate space, right?
A lot of, you know, um, on the, on the way up and especially they
get into that million to 3 million kind of, kind of in that, where
most people just get stuck phase.
That's it.
I mean, that's just kind of where they, they, they tap out
their capabilities, but, um.
You know, so responsible for production and you gotta rely on,
on having that, that that right hand person that can, that can execute.
And understanding, you know, the three character types in any endeavor, right?
You gotta have somebody that has the ideas.
You gotta have somebody that executes the ideas, but you also gotta have
somebody that manages the ideas.
Hmm.
And you know, I guess by what, by definition, if you, if you wear all
three of those hats, you're a solopreneur and you know, coach, you know, the
top team in Penn, you know, in pa.
And.
They operate as a, as a solopreneur.
I mean, they have for a long time because you got, you know, the
guy at the, you know, head of the company that's also executing
the ideas and managing the ideas.
And I'm like, bro, you realize you're a solopreneur.
And it's like, you know, it's just one of those things.
It's like you realize when you can let go and you get that right hand
that can just execute for you.
You can move at lightning speed.
And so it was really, it was really cool being able to, you know.
Me wanting to be able to pour, I just didn't have the time.
But Ben, you know, introduced to you to be able to, to come in and, and help us
lay the foundation, you know, the EOS framework and just, you know, getting
everybody in sync, getting everybody on the same page is, uh, so key.
Oh, such a good introduction to kind of kick off our time together, John.
And, you know, it was interesting getting started with your team because sometimes
when I'm getting into these engagements.
Clients don't have much of an idea of what it should look like, and they
haven't explored other operating systems.
I will say that your comments on scaling up, that's something that I have heard
from different clients, that they feel like scaling up is um, they feel
like it's a bit oversized for what they initially need, and it's what.
Pushes many people over to Traction and the entrepreneurial operating system.
So Traction by Gino Wickman is the book.
Anyone who's like, what are they talking about?
I recommend that's where you begin, is by reading Traction
and in traction they explain the entrepreneurial operating system.
And I will say, you know, as someone who came from.
Everything from small business to large corporate international environments.
Um, everything I write in there, I was like, well, duh.
Like this is just the basics, but it's really beautifully and simply packaged.
And we know that simple doesn't necessarily always translate into easy.
And to support that, that journey and help people really, our business owners, really
maximize how they're using the system.
Because we hear many stories of, oh, well, I read it and then I, I
told someone on my team to take the book and go figure out how to do it.
So I. One of the things that we do is we work with companies who are attempting
to do that, go through what we call a self-led implementation, and we do help
them get more, um, depth and width out of the system and really maximize that.
Your team was unique too, because you already had a really good team in place.
So to your point, even when we have the right people arguably
sitting even in the right seats.
The power of getting them mobilized around a common vision and executing together.
It's really that concept of like rowing in the same direction.
Mm-hmm.
And even the best people can't do that without our, our guidance at
the leadership level to really point them and then keep those bumpers up
on the bowling lane, if you will.
So.
Yeah.
No, it is, and and I appreciate that because, you know, as, as visionary
leaders that, that understand the frameworks, but like are also we, you
know, out mowing yards every day, right.
And do doing the work, it's hard to, to give the time allocation required.
But being able to have a team that you're able to get them in their right
lanes so that they can, that they can do their thing and, and for us to
get out of the way and let them do, to do their thing is, is really key.
And I know, you know, obviously with Jamie and, and coming in and, and kind of where,
where you really, you know, help and with your new endeavor, your new company, um.
Really on the fractional side of things.
And you know, a lot of people, they, they hear that, right?
Like we used to, you know, when we were building the coaching company,
we would always say, Hey, you need a jk, which was integrated before an
integrator was even, was even a thing.
And uh, you can unpack and define that.
Um, and, and so how do you, and, and, and I know you, you, you have.
Many different industries, right?
So you see, you know, um, common themes across multiple different,
different industries, which I love.
Right?
That's, I think that's why.
I've always been so drawn to Jay Abraham and the way he thinks and you know,
just being able to see so many different angles in so many different industries.
'cause that's, I just, I believe that's where the exponential growth
can happen, is applying what works in a different industry into yours.
Um, that everybody else is just doing the incremental little things and you
bring a whole new idea into your industry and that's where you see the growth.
But, um.
Small business entrepreneurs, right?
They, they tend to like the solopreneur.
They, they tend to grab on and do, do everything.
Um, what, where do you see, um.
They feel that, oh man, I just, I, I gotta get a full-time person.
I gotta wear this hat until I can get that person.
It's just a lack of, of knowledge and awareness that you can go get
fractional talent that can, you know, in the fractional time, do
more than what you can probably think that you can bring in full time.
A fractional person can do it, you know, 10, 20, 30 times
better, faster, um, in a smaller.
Incremental timeframe.
Yeah, it's interesting because it is this, I would say, newer little
cottage industry that has popped up since a little bit like in the midst
of COVID, and it's great for as far as who we see going into fractional work.
We see very powerful, widely and deeply experienced executives.
Who specialize in certain areas of the business or in a certain,
you know, tool set or methodology going into this fractional space.
So what the heck is it?
So it's really that bridge between I have to do everything myself and
I'm ready to hire a full-time person at a pretty substantial salary.
And we're seeing the, the cost to bring in someone that has.
That level of experience that your business probably needs, you're
either gonna sacrifice on the talent and the expertise of the person to
fit it into your budget, or you're gonna end up, you know, paying
for maybe even more than you need.
That's something I hear as well, right?
I'm paying this massive salary, but I really just need kind of this piece of it.
So fractional becomes this beautiful bridge because to your point,
a fractional executive, and in our case it's a fractional COO.
Or EOS integrator.
We offer both services.
And the reason we do that is because we don't work exclusively
with companies that run on EOS.
So we do have our own operating system tool set, and we're capable
and knowledgeable of others, but we bring this person in and I
want you to think of them as, yes.
Fraction of the time.
Fraction of the cost, but full horsepower.
And I think that's really important.
I often equate it.
Um, I used to work in, in technology for what's called a managed service
provider, and that's a business that one technology team serving
hundreds of businesses, right?
Because these businesses don't necessarily need like.
The full gamut of a full tech team, or they can't afford it, so they contract
a managed service provider to handle it.
And we used to joke that we're hiring these guys and the difference
between what they get exposed to knowledge-wise across all these different
technology environments compared to working in a singular environment.
Environment.
Being a CIS admin for one company, it's like human years.
To dog years.
So since I've been doing this work, it's incredible the learning curve because
I'm exposed to so many businesses and industries and different personalities
and leadership, team dynamics and, and complexity, um, and stages of growth.
It's like I've got this front row seat, like real time
mastery of all of these things.
And that's what our, the fractional people get to then take to your
point, and bring it into these businesses to share that knowledge.
Because often we find that within industry, what do we all do?
We go to our industry events.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And so we start to hear a lot of the same messaging and same talk tracks.
I'm a huge fan of that because consistency is a. Superpower.
So I love the guys that are banging the drum on the industry specific stuff that's
mission critical and you wanna couple that so that you don't get too stuck
inside of the tunnel looking at your own stuff and your own headlines all the
time and see like what else is out there.
There are so many relevant.
Professional service industries that we work with that are facing the same
types of challenges as real estate and to see how those things can like
intermingle and the way that we can bring value to the real estate industry.
Like, Hey, here's what's going on over in this little corner.
You may not have thought to look there, but we're gonna bring that
into you also becomes really useful.
What is, what is the biggest challenge that you see and, and maybe.
I can kind of give a contrast, just small business in general to.
You know, to what the real estate agents, the real estate profession is, is facing.
It's a great question, and I've worked with quite a few large real
estate teams across the country over the last four, four years or so.
So I've seen everything from the smaller.
A, you know, team that is the high producing agent owned, they're trying
to get out of so much production, but still really being pulled back
into that because they're the biggest revenue driver in the, in the firm.
Mm-hmm.
And then I've also seen teams that have done a really beautiful job of embracing.
This type of methodology when they were hitting that growth ceiling that you
talked about earlier, and they really doubled down on putting an operating
system foundation in place that enabled them to get out of that function of
production inside of their business.
And when we say elevate, we're elevating in them into what we call more of
that visionary founder, uh, position.
And it doesn't mean that you just sit up on the observation deck and kind of look
out at what everyone's doing all day.
That's a bit of a misnomer.
It's actually a very active position, critical to the future of the business
because they're the person that is really doing the vision casting.
Mm-hmm.
They're predicting where we're going to go.
They're making sure, like they, they know where that big, long-term target
is, and they're continuing to pull the rest of the team back to it so
that everything that we're executing on is aligned with putting us toward.
Vision.
So it's not like a passive, when I say I'm gonna free you from
your business, it's not because I want you out of the business.
That is a misconception.
It is that I actually just want you in the right seat for the business.
Mm-hmm.
And if we do it right, then it is something that creates a reduction in
what we call, um, owner dependency.
And it creates increase then in value growth of your business and the
freedom that you're feeling from it.
So that's one of the things that we're super passionate about when
we're starting in early days of these engagements, because we need to create.
A visionary seat that is exciting and thrilling and compelling that the,
the owner actually wants to be in.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
And um, you know, uh, thanks to, thanks to Miss Tina call.
Um, definitely really embrace, you know, the working genius concepts.
And, and you know, I'm working with a, um, one of the.
Top teams in, in Canada and they're, they went through a massive merger bringing
multiple teams together to form, which now is gonna be the number one, the number one
team for their brokerage in all of Canada.
And you're, you're, you're, you're starting to bring in these d
different character types and it's like, I'm used to this and now
we're getting this, and I'm like.
Whereas our working genius Yeah.
And, and really going through and they're like, uh, that's why.
And really having that aha and I think when.
You find that visionary role, right?
The true, the true visionaries that even even, you know, hit the
w have a lot of WRI on the working genius in their, in their genius.
Um, it starts to explain a lot, right?
And it's like, listen, you know, you realize part of your job is.
Ideas.
Part of your job is trying to, you know, navigate into the future.
Part of your job is strategic relationships.
That becomes your job.
And I think, you know, the, you know, heads of companies and visionaries that
I've had the opportunity to work with.
When you really go through that and understand that, that's part of.
They're, they're vital functions of what they have to accomplish.
To your point, it's freeing.
They're like, ah, okay, this is what I'm supposed to do.
Like, yeah, that's what you're supposed to do.
Yeah, that's exactly what it is.
Now we, now we compliment the people around you to help bring
those ideas down to earth, down into, down to, you know, execution.
So it's, it, it really is fun, you know, having that framework to be
able to, to help, you know, navigate.
You know, entrepreneurs and you know, these, these business leaders through,
to me, I mean the same as you, it's just, it's really fulfilling to when,
you know, they have those light bulb moments to be able to, you know, just
catch that little, that, that one little, you know, spark for them.
And it's just, it's really fulfilling.
So I. Unpack in integrator a little bit, right?
Like, like the clear distinction and, and kind of who's ideally fit for,
you know, the, those type of roles.
And listen, I was an integrator.
Grew into the visionary role and it would be hard, but I could probably
in go back into the integrator mode.
But, um, I would love for you to just kind of, 'cause you see it much more
than I do, but being able to really, the, the differences and kind of what
to look for and, and kind of what your motive is and kind of what your.
Best lane for you to jump into.
Yeah.
So there's so much to unpack there.
So I think we're gonna have some fun with this part of the conversation.
So first of all, I love that you brought up working genius because it takes the
personal nature out of the friction that we may be feeling even within ourselves.
So when we are the ones who are responsible as the owner of
the business, the leader of the organization, and we have to not only.
Create and cast and reinforce and fortify vision of where we're going.
But we also have to be the one, you know, driving the car with that map.
That's a really complicated thing.
Back when there used to be actual maps.
Like if you remember your parents, like one person's a navigator, one
person's driving, and you don't want the same person doing the both things.
So I was, I was helping a little bit of homework last night.
We had the ruler out, the map out.
Oh gosh.
And the kids were like, what is this?
What is this?
I'm like, I'm like literally like, there's no need to to understand
this, but this is what this is.
Yeah.
This is a, a map you can buy atlases.
Oh my gosh.
So funny.
I wonder if you can even get maps at gas stations anymore.
Anyway, whole other thing.
But visionary is the one with the map.
Right?
Here's where we're going folks, and here's the route we've carved out to get there.
And oftentimes they then have to, it's almost like sock puppets.
Like, I'm gonna create the vision and now I have to go and figure out how
we're gonna get all those things done.
And to your point, using a tool like Working Genius, I love that one
in particular because it's simple.
It's not a behavioral assessment or a personality test, it's
not another one of those.
It's literally called a productivity assessment.
Mm-hmm.
And a productivity tool.
So to your point.
The CliffNotes version for everyone out there is we need to invent,
we need to activate what we invent and we need to implement what
we've activated with the team.
So those were kind of the three high level phases of working genius.
And when you take the assessment, basically tells you, you know, these
are the six layers of the genius.
And you're either someone who you know, they give you your top
two that are most innate to you.
And it's not that.
It's like these are your.
Um, only things you can do.
Mm-hmm.
It's your default position.
It's what you tend to do and how you tend to approach information issues,
problems as they're coming at you.
So if you're not sure which you are, and yet you're sitting in both the
visionary and the integrator, see, you're responsible for the whole gamut.
You're not sure where you naturally go.
I would encourage, it's like the best 25 bucks you can possibly spend.
It is the best.
Seriously, go take it.
And here's my other pro tip.
Don't read the book first.
So there is a book, the Six Types of Working Genius.
I would agree.
Patrick Lin, don't bias yourself by reading the book first.
Actually go take the assessment, then go read the book, and when
you take the assessment, there is a bit of honor system I would say.
I've seen people basically like.
You know, BS their way around it to be what they think their boss wants
them to be, or what they personally feel obligated to be for the business.
Hmm.
So be raw and honest with yourself.
Try and eliminate distractions and bias of whatever you're working on or stress with.
Like, if you've got a lot of stuff going on between the ears, thinking
about work, find a more quieted.
Time, post meditation or prayer, whatever you like to do.
It'd be a great time to take that, to get the most honest results.
I had to take it twice because I, I did kind of fudge it
a little bit on the first.
I love, I love your distinction about that.
Right.
You know, we've been, you know, really on the Lencioni train for, for, you know,
well, we had one of our mentors that, um, we were in his private mastermind.
And, um, it was, it was clay mask, um, with Infusionsoft.
And, and so we would go out to, we had to fly out to, to Arizona and there
were only like four or five companies in there and everybody had to present
on, on the day what the problem was.
Chris, like three times in a row he told us to read the Advantage.
We didn't read it.
Yeah.
And then we finally read it and we're like.
My gosh, we would've solved these problems a year ago if we
would've just listened to you.
So that was the lesson, like, so when anybody's like kind of working through,
when working through a situation and they say, Hey, go read this and check this out.
Like, I immediately stopped get the book just from that lesson, right.
It, it could have collapsed so much time.
And then so it just been students of of Lencioni ever since.
And I was in the airport when, when the six Working Genius book came
out, I grabbed the book and I started reading it on the plane and I'm like.
Put it down, put it in my bag, and I was just like, and then, and, and so
your distinction on take the assessment and then dive deep in the book.
Spot on, write things, right Order.
That is the sequence.
I think it's really important because of the way that it's just too easy
for us to kind of like, you know, massage the results to get what we want
because we also have self perspec self perspective on who we think we are.
And if anything threatens that, that can be challenging for us.
So I actually, in thinking about the working genius and.
It's interesting watching some of these big real estate teams merge together.
I've been following a lot of what?
Like what?
Like the whistle beer team coming together now.
Right.
And all the fun that they're having on social media and stuff.
And you're seeing a few of these kind of mergers.
Mm-hmm.
If you will happen, which is a beautiful thing.
I'm a huge fan and has to be done with a ton of intention because
you're not just pulling together like revenue, you're pulling together.
Culture and leadership style and methodology and behavior
and all of these other things.
So it's gonna be really fun to watch how those two guys, pardon me, who were so,
uh, intentional about that type of stuff.
Like how they all, any of these examples, how they come together, but
thinking about, um, something that's a basic, uh, foundational, I would
say practice in EOS that's really important is this concept of, um.
You're allowed to sit in multiple seats, but you can't have two people in one seat.
So the visionary seat is one box, if you will, on what we call the
accountability chart, which is like an org chart on steroids.
Then you've got one integrator seat and one sales, one ops, one finance.
You know, depending on size and scope of your organization, you
can have other stuff kind of, uh, mixed in there if necessary to
your, to your industry and business.
But when we think about a visionary.
Integrator like yourself that was sitting technically in both seats.
Mm-hmm.
It's not that that's against the rules, but the power move is to figure out
which of these seats is the right one.
For me, and for anyone who's listening to this right now saying, well,
I'm, I'm totally great at both.
You might be.
'cause honestly, John, you were really good at both functions.
Mm-hmm.
You were capable.
Mm-hmm.
But there's a really important distinction between can and should and actually
sitting in the seat that you are best suited to sit and to serve the business.
Now what we often find is like, it's that sock puppet conversation
again of, you know, visionary and integrator, and I have to do both.
There's people out there that may have to still do both for, for a while.
Um, but the power move, when you think about deciding which of those
seats you really wanna sit in.
It's likely the visionary seat in real estate teams.
And the reason is most salespeople, really good salespeople, which most of our team
leaders and creators like Tina, she's great at sales because she's creative
and relationship based, and those are some really be, and she's inventive.
Mm-hmm.
Really beautiful characteristics for a powerful visionary.
Um.
But because they've also sat in that integrator seat and they've had success
in that integrator seat, they're going to struggle to let go of it.
So I just wanna speak to anyone who is sitting in both, and what is
that thing that's making you afraid to like let go of that seat and
actually let someone else occupy it?
And just spending some time really thinking about like, what's
going on there for me because.
When we experience success in a certain role, we tend to hang onto
that and go, oh, that works for me.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna clinging to it.
But that's where we see that ceiling get hit with the people who sit in the
visionary integrator seat too long.
Hey, quick pause before we keep going.
This market is shifting fast, and if you've been feeling the
pressure, you're not alone.
But here's the thing, it's not going to slow down so you can catch up.
I've opened a limited number of executive one-on-one coaching spots this month for
agents who are ready to stop spinning their wheels and lead with clarity.
If that's you, head to John Kitchens coach and let's make it happen.
Now, back to the episode.
One recommendation.
So I, I, I 100% agree.
I think we started to hear a lot of it coming out of pandemic.
And obviously things were so easy that why would I want to align and
put, you know, our, our fires together to put, create one bigger fire.
But we're starting to see it.
And you know, I had, uh, Kyle on, um, the expert mentors conversation on 4th of
July, and he told me that was the move.
And I was like, bro, that is the move.
Like, like.
Just bringing all of these smaller teams into, and now you've had
this one massive bonfire Yeah.
Within your marketplace.
And I know he is not done, so I, to me it's the move is I obviously, what I
was telling you about, you know, the team in Canada just did the same thing.
Yeah.
I, I think it's so right.
Being able to bring in those different resources.
There's a Lencioni book that.
He struggled to put out, but it's the book that should be read first
before the advantage, before you know.
Then you get into obviously, you know, working genius, ideal team
player, and all of his other, all of the other works that he has.
And it's called The Motive.
I was hoping you were gonna say that.
I was like, oh, I hope he says the motive.
But it's the perfect example of these two head of companies that battle each other.
But when they come together and they realize like.
No, like, this is where my heart is.
My heart is marketing.
This is where I'm gonna add the most value to this vision, and this
endeavor is sitting in this seat.
And it's such a, like, it's a must read if you're looking to bring
fires together in reading that book.
And, and it just, it's so, it's so powerful.
I couldn't agree more.
And it really ties beautifully too, to your point, the ideal team
player, those core values of humble, hungry, and smart, which are the
core values of the Table group, which is Patrick Lin Joni's company.
But those are really any company I work with anymore, they're looking at,
that's the permission to play stuff.
If you can't show up with what humble, hungry, and smart need
to look like here with our core values, then it's probably a no.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and.
It takes a very high level of self-awareness and humility for someone
who has been the figurehead of an organization and their name is on the wall
to say, I'm willing to step back and sit in the marketing seat because let's face
it, the value of whatever seat they sit in, they just took that seat and put it
on steroids because they're sitting in it.
The power and, and, and impact they can create there is incredible.
They have to have the vision to see it.
And the humility to be willing to take that step back and.
Not perceive it as a step back, but perceive it as like a power
move for the greater good.
So it's just, it's probably a faster, better pathway to get to whatever
it is you're trying to get to.
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
I have a client that I'm working with right now actually that's
really struggling with that.
They have.
Um, they have an owner, a merged entity owner sitting in a leadership
team position, actually sitting in two leadership team positions and not
doing either of them particularly well.
Mm-hmm.
And refuses to relinquish that seat because I'm an owner of the business
and what, what are the optics if the owner of the business isn't
sitting in that particular seat?
And I'm like, well, what are the optics if we're failing as an organization because.
You can't perform in that seat the way the business really needs.
So it, there's definitely tension and unfortunately, well, or fortunately,
I guess, whichever way you look at it, I end up in many of those
types of conversations, having to be the person that makes like the un
unpopular observation and asks the, the provocative question on, you
know, is this really working for you?
So that's something I would encourage.
Any of the, the team leaders that are listening that are in, you know, those
multiple seats or trying to figure out what seat they should settle into.
Um, is there something there kind of going on between the ears for you where
it is maybe more of a, an ego thing?
Ego's not bad.
We all have it.
Mm-hmm.
So that's a release of judgment.
Is there something going on for me?
Am I, am I holding onto this for the wrong reasons?
Um, and am I really doing what's right for the greater
good of the business long term?
Is that, is that the struggle for.
Not being able to balance the short term with the long term.
Is that sometimes where that comes into play?
Yeah, I think the, the short term is obviously where we're comfortable
often, and so really some, some people even struggle to, I work
with one real estate team and I absolutely love the woman that runs
the organization and she very honestly tells me, I'm struggling to figure out.
Where this industry and this business should be 3, 5, 10 years from now.
So that's one of the exercises that I actually like to begin with.
So when we're onboarding a new client, we do a lot of deep work with the visionary
and we use more, um, I would say executive coaching strategy than necessarily like
operating system mechanics to go deep on creating a thrilling, compelling vision.
And it's so incredible.
Even as someone like I can be pretty visionary.
And I can, I can come up with the big ideas and get excited about that stuff,
but the power of working with someone who actually specializes in pulling
that vision out of me has been extremely helpful so that I can be biopic and know
when to pull, like long-term vision lever versus short-term like GSD Execute mode.
Yeah.
Approach.
Yeah.
Being able to have that balance.
That's um.
Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, everybody has maybe their crystal
ball, you know, uh, perspective on, on kind of where, where things are gonna
go and, um, I think just obviously speed is, is one factor, right?
Um, just, just as, as we continue to navigate, as things
get faster and faster, but.
One of the things, Kristen, and, and I would love your, your 2 cents, um,
when you look at kind of, you know, you touched on the accountability chart,
but really looking at continuing to, to streamline, you know, the, the vital
functions of, of these organizations.
And, um, looking at consolidation of, of, of roles, right?
Instead of, you know, as, as a lot of companies are having to get a lot leaner,
obviously incorporating a lot of ai.
VA fractional full-time, right?
So if you had to kind of go, you know, the path of, you know, uh, you know,
Hey, I can afford this then, then this, then this, and this on the way up.
Seeing a consolidation of, of even marketing and sales to where it's just
a consolidation of just growth, right?
Head of growth.
I'm responsible to not create silos between marketing and sales,
like we're working together.
You see obviously like even small business, like for me, right?
I was responsible for ops.
Finance, right?
So there wasn't two separates.
It was that consolidation and then the emergence of, you know, the vital
function of, of experience and, and really controlling and making sure that
we're being intentional we're the journey and the experience we're creating,
especially on real estate side of things.
And you get to a certain point, you know, the.
The swamp, if you will, the one to three where, where a lot of teams get
stuck and the reason they get stuck is because the people that got 'em
into that, into that one to three range, they won't let go of them.
They won't up their talent, right?
They're, they're, most of the time they're too loyal.
They stay not as a bad thing, they're just, loyalty is,
is very important to them.
And they just reach the capabilities of their people and that's where they,
they bump that three mark, um, and.
Being able to continue, you know, the main thing they have to do is,
is like, bring more people in Yeah.
And need to grow to, to push through that, that threshold.
So kind of, but when you get into that threshold, the game
changes, especially in real estate.
So if you're in that range, your, your clientele, your
focus is buyers and sellers.
Investors and builders.
But when you get into that mark and then you're, you're, you
know, you're 12, 15, 20 agents.
Your business model is no longer buyer and sellers, your business
model is now real estate agents.
And so making sure that it, and the challenges is that you gotta support
them, you know, to their clients now as the buyers and sellers.
But you as head of company, your clients are, are the real estate agents.
So it's, it's kind of.
It becomes a lot.
And I think that's where a lot of agents they struggle with.
They don't want to go bigger than that because they, they, you know,
the dynamics of serving the buyers and sellers and serving the agents.
It's almost like two different business models in one being able to, you know,
try to try to navigate that terrain.
But what are your thoughts as things are getting leaner?
Obviously, you know, the fast emergence of, of AI and where we're gonna start
to see more, more consolidations and things continuing to get a lot leaner.
Yeah, there's a few, a few big ideas that.
I wanna key into here to provide some really good practical advice and I would
hope, comfort for the people listening.
Um, first of all, any business naturally hits what we call various
ceilings throughout their growth journey and the opportunity that.
Is presented to them in that moment is you can either decide to stay
just below that ceiling or you can choose evolution and push through.
So those are really the two paths.
Stay where you are or keep growing.
I am naturally wired as a keep growing kind of person.
Me too.
Which is why I really, I love the work, but I do, I'm like, okay, what's next?
I'm, I'm the what's next girl?
For sure.
So the big idea there is first choose.
Do you wanna push through the ceiling?
If you're saying, no, we're gonna stay put, we're gonna kind of stay at this
safe zone, and we know what it looks like.
It's, you know, known operations, processes and commodity, that's
a choice that you can make.
But I would also encourage you to have, um, someone
challenge you on your thinking.
Is it something that is serving you in, in some kind of limiting belief where you've.
Feel like you have to stay there or should stay there for some reason.
And is that true?
And if it wasn't true, what might you do about it?
So that's just a fun question to journal about or unpack with someone who you
trust, who knows you really well.
Second big idea here is that every issue in your business, I would say 90% of
the issues that we're solving in client engagements are either people or process.
So anytime you're facing something in your business and you're
like, what's going on here?
Why are we stuck?
You've probably got a people problem or a process problem.
Mm-hmm.
And those are different things, but the tool that you mentioned earlier
that I think is really powerful here, regardless of AI and all of the
different options available to you, and that menu is growing, to your point.
Worry less about who should I put in the seat and start by getting
clear on what is the actual seat.
So you mentioned like, oh man, the complexity of titles.
Can we just talk about that?
I mean, mm-hmm.
Chief Revenue Officer, chief Growth Officer, chief marketing
Officer, chief Experience Officer, chief Transformation Officer.
Like all of the different things that are popping up because people like
to be creative and kitschy and fun.
Yeah, and there has now become the, you can have 10 resumes for chief
revenue officers sitting in front of you, and the functionality of
what they've actually done to get that title has looked so different.
So there's no clear path for positions and titles anymore.
So what can you do as a business owner to regain control?
Because your responsibility, here's the big idea on the accountability
chart, you simply need the right seats.
That are inclusive of what is the function that the business needs performed here
and what are the three to seven roles that that function performs consistently?
It's that 20% rep representation of 80% of the things that that
person is doing very consistently, and it's regardless of the people.
That's often the most challenging exercise that we go through when
we're building an accountability chart in a client environment or even
restructuring an accountability chart.
'cause that's an active living breathing tool.
It's not a set it and forget it.
We're constantly going back and saying, Hey.
The business is pivoting.
There's an evolving need in the marketplace.
Mm-hmm.
Or what we're hearing from our agent demand and how do we account for that?
Is it a full functioning seat in and of itself, or is it a role
associated with an existing function?
So it enables scalability.
Intentionality and how you're growing because not everything
is a plus one moment.
And what I mean by that is just because we see a new need in the business doesn't
mean we need to go hire another person.
Um, I know it's really easy to say yes to part-time VA support because now we
can get it for a pretty reasonable US dollar rate and really great talent.
But we still want to be really intentional.
I'm big on financial acumen with our client engagements, so that's one of the
first things we unpack and, and we're going to look at the human capital spend
to be, it has to be, has to be 1000%.
Um, I trust, you know, if they're bringing me in, I trust that they
can at least afford me, but I also have to make sure that they
can afford, they can't afford me.
You need to do, right?
Yeah.
Or sometimes they can't and they, they bring me in anyway.
And, and that's my first job is to make sure that we're getting clear there.
Um, but, uh, you know.
If we think about the structure of the accountability chart, that is an
extremely useful exercise to go through.
And then the second thing that I would say, and this is big, this has been game
changing for me, um, in how I advise many of my clients and how they're building for
the future of what their business needs.
Talent wise.
If you know what you want your business to look like in three years.
You have to be hiring people who have been there before.
Mm-hmm.
So if I know I'm trying to five X my company in the next three years, I better
bring in someone who knows what the five x version of my company could look like.
And they've been with a company that knows what are the pitfalls, what
are the obstacles, what should we be avoiding, what should we be doing?
Um, that is a massive like.
Talent lever to pull.
I would say that's really important.
So oftentimes we are back filling an existing position rather than trying to.
Necessarily bring in the person who can move us closer to the, the vision
of what we're trying to become.
Because let's also be honest, um, if I'm trying to grow my company to be
a $10 million, you know, 50 person organization, if I don't have that
experience, I better bring people in who do have that experience.
Yeah.
So I think that's really, uh, an important like, intentional thing.
And that goes into a little bit of like John Maxwell Law of the Lid, the.
Company will only go as far as the leadership level of the
most capable person on the team.
And it's, listen, visionary leaders, it's okay if it's not you.
Right.
And, and letting go of that, that is 100% okay.
Right?
Yeah.
That's huge.
Like, know thyself moment for sure.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I mean, you know, are you still equipped to be, to be head of company or
are you better off in a, in another role?
But most of the time you are still, you know, head of company and you know,
maybe you just need to up the talent.
You know, with you on the ops side, maybe up the talent with you on, you
know, the marketing side, on the sales side, and, you know, as they continue
to grow, where, where do you see, um, making sure the responsibilities stay
with, with the head of company and what can then transfer to a fractional hire?
Um, bringing somebody in like you, you know, not letting go.
What, what is like the one thing that.
No matter what head of company, you can't let go of you.
You have to maintain.
The short answer is it is the vision of the organization that really,
I mean, it's called the visionary seat for a very simple reason.
So everything else.
Really boils down to trust.
I mean, I've had, I've had a, you know, some of our client engagements
where they're like, Hey, I'm going on 30 day emergency access only.
Here's all the banking account logins.
Like that's the worst case scenario of what you might need.
You're authorized to go in there, move these things to these accounts,
like there's that level of trust.
It takes a long time to get to, which is one of the things that we
see held onto for a pretty, pretty long time is that finance seat.
Mm-hmm.
But controlling and continuing to cast the vision and really fortifying
that in the organization, the vision, which in is inclusive of, it's the
who we are, where we're going and how I'm I, how I want us to get there.
That does need to continue to live with the visionary.
Now, having a highly capable team to execute that is obviously important
because that's where trust breaks down.
So if you're a visionary and you're telling your operator or your second
in command, your integrator, this is where we've gotta get to, and they're
not demonstrating the capability to get the rest of the team mobilized
in that direction, you probably have not the right person in that seat.
And then the question becomes, are you of course.
Casting that vision effectively and being very generous in what
your expectations look like.
But I would say my most successful clients, um, that they bring that
fractional person in also to model for the rest of the leadership team.
This is what it looks like to lead, manage, and create accountability.
This is what execution looks like.
This is how we create a climate of accountability.
Accountability isn't something that you do to someone.
It's not like a, a verb that you, you know, beat someone over the head
with the accountability bat, which I've worked for those companies too.
That's a thing that happens.
Um, but it's truly modeling leadership practices and management practices that
bring that visionary's vision to life.
I'm not there.
I'm there as a strategic advisor and a thought partner for the visionary,
so I can play in that space with them, ask questions, challenge thinking,
come up with maybe expansions or prompt them into expansion of their vision.
But ultimately I'm there.
We decide together, here's what we're gonna say yes to, and what
we're gonna then cascade down to the leadership team for whatever that
next level of execution looks like.
And we do want their participation.
So to your point, the 90 day world running strategic planning sessions
that map out what are we running toward for the next 90 days, and just
taking our world one chunk at a time in that way is extremely powerful.
So a fractional integrator or COO.
Should be providing strategic advisor thought partnership.
And everything in between.
And the organizational development and, and leadership all the way down to people,
process, performance management, um, project management, all of those things.
So the work that we do can be pretty wide and we, you know,
we help them figure that out.
That's the other thing.
They don't have to figure out what it might look like to have a
fractional person in their business.
We do a pretty deep dive discovery and calibration with them to make
sure that not only do we have the right growth plan in place.
Can be executed together, but then also, you know, um, what does
that look like, uh, long term?
I love it.
Yeah.
I bounced around on you real quick here and, and, um, you know, we
talked about the law of the lid and we talked, you know, leadership
capabilities and the sizes is only direct proportion to, to just that.
Do you see it?
The leadership development, is it just because it doesn't get prioritized?
Is that where it tends to, to slow down, is because that's not part of,
you know, the ongoing development and training and, and, and a much bigger
focus on leadership development.
You know, anything in the vein of training tends to be the first thing to get punted
from the calendar in my experience.
So even when I am being paid sometimes, you know, premium rates to deliver
a certain type of training to a leadership team or a group, it's
amazing how easy it is for people to be like, oh, it's the I'm too busy card.
I don't have time for that today because they have little fires everywhere.
Burning all around them that have to be put out.
And even if they were to show up, they'd be so wildly distracted because they know
what's waiting for them on the other side.
So I think it does, um, it does get pushed from the schedule pretty consistently.
People end up, it sounds great, but then when it push comes to shove.
They declined at the last minute from their calendars.
So I've seen that.
I think there's also an expectation when you become a certain caliber
of leader in an organization.
I think there's an expectation from the people that hired you that
you do a bit of self-development when it comes to your leadership.
And so they don't necessarily know the story of how leadership development.
Was handled for you, for your, in your career leading up to this
point, were you a self-starter?
You know, did you kind of manage that on your own through just learner
mindset and, you know, hustle and grind?
Or did you have people deeply investing in you to create that?
I think that's an important question when you're bringing
a leader into the organization.
Mm-hmm.
To ensure you're not making any assumptions about.
How they personally prioritize and have been developed as a leader.
Um, and I, I would love to see organizations commit to it more
deeply, but we've, we've all been guilty of it because there are so
many other things that we're often trying to deal with, especially if
we're hitting our heads on scalability issues and, and growth ceilings.
Yeah, that's such a great point.
And never, never assume intelligence for another human being.
And, and so I think it's, it's really getting clear.
Don't assume, ask the questions and it's, you know, I think
you're, you're helping them.
To if the more I, I know the more that we can help and, and get on the
right path and, and where we need to, you know, make the jump and, you
know, just like anything, I mean, leadership's a skill and so it's,
it's development and it's the biggest jump that you get to a certain point.
Being able to, to have, and you know.
Even, even, you know, hard driving.
We, we all can continue to learn and, and you know, like you said,
you know, obviously first rule of leadership is lead by example.
So definitely the personal development side of things on your own, but also
bringing that back into the environment to stretch and, and grow the team and,
and your key, your key people around you.
I like that, John.
And we're also seeing an interesting shift where we're seeing in some larger
organizations even you have someone who is an incredible specialist of their craft.
And we naturally think, I mean, we've all seen the dynamic of we take the best
sales guy in the room and we make him the sales manager, and then he makes a
terrible sales manager because all the things that made him great at being.
A sales person don't necessarily lend well to him.
Being a good manager of people and transferring that skill to
others, it's a different skillset.
So we've seen that dynamic play out.
But the other dynamic that we see is, um, you know, oh, this person is such a, a
specialist and, and master of their craft.
Surely they want that leadership.
Layer.
Mm-hmm.
Added on.
And I will say I, I'm pretty intentional when we're building out that
accountability chart, any seat that.
Has people reporting into it has that first accountability in the whole little
bucket there of roles is leadership plus management equals accountability.
Mm-hmm.
And the reason it's the number one, it's not the seventh or the third on that list,
it's number one, because you're probably gonna spend about 50% of your week there.
You're gonna burn a lot of energy and you're going to need to be really
equipped and intentional about performing that role associated with your seat.
So it's also Okay.
To have people in leadership, um, or in like lead positions that are the
specialists and not necessarily giving them the team of people to manage.
So that's the other thing that I think gets missed.
We, we have to have a team of people.
It could be that we use a dotted line approach or they are, um, like a subject
matter expert in the organization.
So there's different ways to elevate people without
necessarily adding leadership and management to their function.
Yeah, and I mean, we see that even with.
You know, even on the working genius.
I mean, and if that, if that e and g is a frustration, you might
wanna be really, really careful.
Um, you know, that just, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't mean they can't do it,
it's just it's not gonna be sustainable.
Um, yeah.
In, in their energy.
Energy draining their development.
Kristen, you are absolutely amazing.
We could keep rolling for, for hours on this and, um, you're just such a,
a wealth of, of, of information and insight and just love how you articulate
things and being able to help connect the dots for, for anyone, you know, kind
of, I'm kind of stuck and, you know, it's like I'm at the crossing point.
I'm, I'm kind of over the VA world.
I need, I need a higher level of talent.
Um.
I'm not ready to make, pull the trigger on a full time.
Like what are, what are some of the, the mental blocks, the
process they need to go through?
Like, are they ready to bring somebody in on a fractional basis?
Well, I would encourage them, you know, to seek out, I mean, obviously I know how
we handle, you know, those conversations, but seek out people in the fractional
space and get informed, because I will say, because it's one of those
industries that anyone can hang a shingle and say, I'm now a fractional person.
There is a pretty.
Wide, um, range of different fractional professionals putting
themselves out there in spaces, like in social media and LinkedIn.
So I would be really conscientious about what those early conversations look like.
So what we do is we start with a discovery call, and that is in 30 minutes, we
will help you figure out if fractional is right for you and if it's not.
We will point you in the right direction to resources, other vendors,
other solutions, and we'll make a recommendation on where you should go.
So we're not ever there to like, just sell the fractional services.
We're not, it's not the right thing for everyone, right?
Sometimes it's a full-time hire and we'll make that recommendation too, um,
if we do end up being the right thing.
We support with them figuring out what it would look like for their business.
And I would say the person who's right for that is just someone who
feels kind of stuck and frustrated.
You know, you're sitting in multiple seats, you know, you're probably doing
everything like maybe 50 to 80% on every, any given day, but you're not
able to give a hundred percent and you're feeling the stress of that
working long hours distracted from your family and the people that you love.
Um, lots of different symptomatic things that we see.
That person's life that are usually the pain point triggers that they just kind
of raise their hand and say, I don't know what to do, and we're a great place to go.
And, and we'll help you figure it out.
Um, and then if we are the right thing, then we move into like a calibration where
we're really figuring out based on your industry, your business, your personality,
your working, even like things like working genius and behavioral assessment,
who do we have on the team that's the right person to embed into your team?
Because it's really important that we develop.
Uh, trust and authority and credibility very quickly.
With the existing teams that we show up as an ally, not a
disruption into the business.
And so we're super intentional about that, like, you know,
matchmaking process, if you will, and bringing those folks together.
Um, and then what I often find too, which.
Gives many of our, our clients some peace of mind.
We kind of take on the responsibility of knowing when that moment is to
raise our hands and say, I think you're ready for a full-time person.
Or we should start to explore that and, and we start to like get ahead
of it because it often can take six to 12 months to find the right person to
backfill our fractional functionality and put the right person in place.
We support with helping them find that person and even onboarding them so
that that transition is super smooth, but we're often saying it first.
Um, because it is our job to identify that moment in partnership with the visionary.
Yeah.
That's so good.
You're amazing.
Um, Kristen, how can they reach, how can they get connected with you?
I would check us out@transformcxo.com.
We are fractional EOS integrators and fractional COOs.
We're also certified exit planning advisors and meta
performance executive coaches.
So we bring a lot of long-term focus to those engagements as well.
So not only are we gonna treat your business today, but we're
gonna help you think about what it means for you and unlocking the.
Wealth and harvesting that from your business eventually on a
more long-term, uh, timeline.
So we have a lot of fun with that work, but I would check out our
website, take a look at our offerings, and they can book a call there.
And they can also follow me on Instagram at Kristen Renan cxo,
which of course I've seen you like on the little ticker on the bottom.
Such a great setup here.
I'm sure they've seen it on time.
We didn't even get into, uh, the exit conversation, so we'll have to do
this again 'cause uh, oh, I'd love it.
That's, uh, definitely a big one.
Always starting with the end in mind.
Kristen.
Appreciate you guys.
Make sure you get plugged in.
Give uh, give Kristen some love and we'll see you guys next time.
Thanks.
See you.
Thanks for tuning in.
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