Welcome to the show, Chad.
Good to see you again.
Hey, good to see you as well.
It's a long time no see.
I know it's just been a few days.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, to give people context, I was on your at-home songwriting group on Saturday talking with your group of songwriters and I had an awesome time.
It's a really cool community you've put together.
Yeah, the I think the people enjoyed it.
I think you inspired them.
I know that some are gonna go buy the book I know I bought your book And it was fun to hear your story and I'm excited to talk more to you today
Yeah, it's nice to have people to connect with on this, you know, that I think we mentioned it even in the meeting, but like songwriting and music making has become very
solitary when we're at computers and we're just doing it all on our own.
So to have other people to talk about it with and get into the nitty gritty and discuss these like little minor details that probably most people that aren't writing music never
even contemplate and
that group seemed enthusiastic, excited, and eager to make music and learn.
I love that.
Good energy.
no, I think one of the things that I've always been impressed by with music is its ability to bring people together.
Obviously, people understand that people like certain artists and you can find different fan groups and fan bases of the artists.
So you meet people that way.
But I think one of the things that people don't realize is musicians and songwriters.
We kind of find our people through it as well.
And people who are not in this
circle, like, have no idea what we're talking about, right?
Like their eyes glaze over and they're just like, I don't know what compression is.
I don't care about what's a dog.
Like, I just listen to music and that's it.
So I think it's fun when you get into your people and then you can sort of like nerd out and go deep onto the stuff that interests us.
But the general public is like, what are you talking about?
Yeah, it's a big reason I started doing the podcast.
People in my life are supportive and...
will listen to me to a certain degree, but there's only so far you can go.
And that even goes for other musician friends too that might just be in a different kind of lane.
You know, they might not be writing songs or working on a DAW.
They might just be playing guitar or piano and they might be in a totally different universe within music.
So to have people that you can get into this stuff is important and has helped me, I think, just like deal with the ups and downs of it myself.
Yeah, and I think, you know, I grew up in the 80s and, you know, when I first started making music, the only way I could really learn about this stuff was either reading like
the backs of albums or cassettes.
you know, what does mixing mean and what does the songwriter do and like who's the producer?
And then I'd go buy these magazines, you know, you'd have like Mix magazine, Keyboard magazine.
And I sort of learned that there was a world like this out there, but...
Back then we didn't have the internet.
So it wasn't like the information was at our fingertips like it is now.
I think a lot of people would have to have been an apprentice with producers or other songwriters or some kind of connection, know, and usually in a music city in order to sort
of learn the things that we all have at our fingertips now.
Like there's so many people out there that are teaching and doing these things that I think it's just
an awesome time for people to connect in this sort of niche, I guess, like it's a niche, I wanna say hobby, but it's more than a hobby for some people, know, it's more of an
industry, so to speak.
Hmm.
Yeah, it's a good point because I remember the same thing looking at the liner notes and they're like, what is that?
Like, what does that even mean?
You know, I understood who played guitar, who played drums, but beyond that, like producer, like mastering engineer, what is all this stuff?
And it did almost feel like the secret society of people, like, and how would you even get into it?
I wouldn't have had any idea until really, I guess the internet came along and started opening
those doors for us all.
Well, you know, I think it has changed the way people in general interact with songwriters and artists.
You know, I think back in the day when we didn't have so much access to behind the scenes.
I think that's why some of these artists seem so mysterious and they seem so quote unquote magical.
You know, when you think of like a Bob Dylan or like a Joni Mitchell or like a Carole King, right?
Like nobody got to see their process.
So it seemed like they just plopped out these amazing legendary songs that connect with a lot of people.
And we've sort of put them on such a pedestal where it almost seems not human, right?
Like they're somehow like blessed with this ability.
And I think what would it have been like?
if they all had Instagram, you know, if they had Instagram accounts and like we all had the same recording gear and like all these things, like I think times have changed where
some of the mystery is taken out of it.
I find myself sometimes wondering, like, wouldn't it be cool if there was this place where people could put out music and never have to like make a video or like show themselves?
Right.
Like kind of for me, when I was a
there's times where you'd get an album and it was like you'd stare at the cover while you'd listen to it and it almost became its own world, it became its own thing and I don't
know if that happens now because when people go buy music they see the artist online, you know, they see what the artist eats for breakfast, they see when they're at a hotel, they
see when they're rehearsing for tour, they see them in the studio, like...
I just think it's so interesting to think about how our relationship with all of this has changed with technology.
I pros and cons, right?
Like I enjoy being able to have that access, but I also wonder what it takes away from it too.
Yeah, I have a few memories of bands like this where they didn't really have their pictures in the albums and you didn't know who they were and you didn't get a lot of that
so it was kind of mysterious and you really just had the music to go on and I'm probably going back to like late 90s early 2000s where people's websites weren't really much and I
was at a
One concert in particular, I remember with my friend and we were like waiting for the band to come out and there were guys bringing guitars and equipment out and we're like, I
wonder if that's them.
We're kind of like, they look like just regular guys.
I don't know.
Like it's weird.
And then when the band came out, we were like, okay, that's them.
Or even some artists that just seemed, you know, like superhuman, superheroes even to us as young musicians, they would get online and they would...
just so regular that it did kind of take a little bit of the wind out of the sail.
I just kind of like, oh, like he eats oatmeal too.
Like he's just a regular guy.
So it's had kind of both effect on me where it is really interesting to see the process and learn how people do stuff.
But then it, like you said, it demystifies it and there is a magic to it.
And I could only imagine, like you said, Bob Dylan on Instagram, if we had all these videos of him.
working out ideas and doing covers and foolish stuff as a youth that it could probably take a lot of that because he's someone that really leaned into that and created the
mystery around himself.
Totally.
Like I'm a big Prince fan, so like growing up, Prince was...
just one of my influences, I would say idols.
I loved how prolific he was, how creative he was, and Prince created his own world, you know what I mean?
And he created his own mystique.
like, being in Minneapolis, I had the chance to go out to Paisley Park when he was still alive and get to see him do his late night performances, and he would hang out, and you'd
be in the same little room with him while he's jamming.
just with a like a little band that he has and then he'd be walking around while everybody's dancing and like you take this larger than life sort of concept and all of a
sudden it's just a person right like it's just another dude kind of a goofy little dude but like still just a person and I think that's inspiring just to know that they kind of
They're in the same world we are, right?
Like all of the same things that they probably go through, we go through, and they just happen to be creative like we are.
Yeah, and he's somebody, as I've learned more about him a little behind the scenes, becomes more and more impressive.
Mm-hmm.
I was watching some documentary where they were taking you inside the vault, they called it, of like all of his recordings and he just has thousands and thousands of tapes of
songs that never got released that were made like almost every day he'd make something new and play everything on it.
That was like, man, like Prince is like kind of superhuman even as you get to see his human side.
Definitely not common, right?
Like he definitely had a very strong work ethic and he just created, created, created and he did.
He recorded everything.
So even when we were at these shows where it seemed like he was just jamming, he was always recording.
So he always captured stuff.
So they have years and years of material that may or may not ever be released, which I think is interesting.
And when he passed,
it sort of made me start to think about what legacy am I leaving, right?
Like, am I writing as much as I should be or as much as I want to?
And do I let everyday stuff get in the way of me actually creating, right?
Like, is that other stuff I'm doing as important to my legacy as if I would create music?
Does that make any sense?
I think so.
think maybe to me it does in making music.
There are sometimes things you can find yourself doing that might earn you some money, but you don't really feel passionate about.
And I consider myself lucky to have some of those opportunities, but things like doing product reviews, I've done in the past, but never really enjoyed so much.
And then kind of thinking about the limited time I have, like do I wanna have another?
review about something that I'm, you know, may or may not be that excited about, but it's just things, you know, it's not the creation, it's not the art, or the expression, if you
can call it art, if you want to be serious about it.
But yeah, the body of work, you know, that you're building, ultimately is the most important thing to me.
for sure.
I think too, like when I think back as a kid, I used to think that when you listen to the radio, the bands were actually at the radio station.
like performing like I didn't really get the concept of like the DJs just playing recordings like I and this was when I was quite young but you know as I'd be in the car
with my mom but I always think like that's really cool like this band is actually at the radio station so like the radio station sort of became this like magical place where it's
like wow you know
But as a kid, I always wanted to learn how to make music like that.
Like there was something that drew me to like popular music and something that drew me to how those songs are made.
And I remember very clearly, it was the Grammys in 1987 and Janet Jackson performed with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis.
And I don't know if you've ever seen this performance, but.
Janet calls out these commands and she'll say, Jimmy Jam, and then he'll do a keyboard solo and then she'll be like, Terry, and then he does a bass.
And I was like, first off, who are these dudes behind the artist?
Because in my head I was like, that's what I wanna do.
And at some point I started getting into electronic keyboards and like.
I sort of got this bug of like, wanna make music like I hear on the radio.
So my mom was like, well, maybe you should take piano lessons.
And I went to like one lesson and they didn't wanna teach me what was on the radio.
So I was like, I don't wanna do that.
So I ended up teaching myself just from learning by ear and I'd buy sheet music and I'd buy the magazines.
I'd read the back covers.
Like I would just eat up any information that I could.
And that's really where I got bit by the songwriting and the music production bug was Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis.
And then I was a big fan of Prince and Debbie Gibson back in the day.
Huge fan of Debbie Gibson when I was in like fifth grade.
think she's a Long Islander, like me.
is, Merrick New York, yeah, yeah.
But what I liked about her was she started in her garage.
She started with multi-track recorders.
I'm sure back then it was tape, you know what I mean?
And I was like, if those people are doing it, why can't I do it?
And that was really where my bug started.
Yeah, that's cool.
Yeah, I think like a lot of the do-it-yourself punk rock for me was inspiring.
Like, and a lot of like the 90s alternative, because they didn't sound like they were especially talented musicians, even though looking back, they certainly were.
But it felt within reach a little more.
then I didn't ever think I was going to become Prince, but I felt like maybe I could play guitar like Kurt Cobain.
So, and then of course, as you learn it, you realize it is actually very complex on different levels.
But yeah, that kind of stuff is, that's fun where you get music that makes you feel like, hey, I could do this too.
Maybe I can be part of this and not just observing it, but participating as well.
I think even to this day, when I listen to Prince's music, like it does something to me that kicks that spark in the back of my mind, whereas like I need to create.
Like there's something about it.
And sometimes there's music that does that by other people, like.
The new Lady Gaga album, her Mayhem album that just came out, I think is awesome.
Like it's totally kind of in the vein of like the stuff that I like and even some of my own style.
But like when I listen to that album, it makes me want to go write a song.
It makes me want to go record.
It makes me want to like make something.
And not every artist does that for me.
That's kind of my favorite type of music is the kind that inspires me.
I often listen to music these days almost in this way like I'm trying to feed off of it.
What can I take from it that'll make me want to make music?
And anything that does that for me, I find exciting.
Do you think part of that is like knowing how the sausage is made a little bit?
Like, and then there's some things that are just kind of average and then all of a sudden something is like, holy cow, like everything lined up on that one and like, how do I do
that?
Do you think there's some of that?
yeah, I'm sure.
mean, sometimes you just hear sounds, that was just interesting.
Or it could even be a songwriting technique or an arrangement type of thing, or just an overall impression it gives you.
It comes from all different angles.
It could be lyrics.
But yeah, something that just makes you want to create too.
It might be because you kind of understand how it's made or you don't and you're like, well, how did they do that?
Let's see if I can figure out my way of doing that.
And a lot of times that's not going to be spot on.
It might be some kind of my own misinterpretations that kind of makes it my own thing, but I'm, I'm still kind of aiming at that, whether I hit the target or not.
Yeah, well, I think that's art, right?
Like no art is is really 100 % original.
Like it's always influenced by something that came before it.
Even like Bob Dylan, you know, I think some people being so in the songwriting world, I think Dylan is like always looked at as like he is the songwriter, right?
And to be honest, I'm not a huge Dylan fan, but I appreciate what he did.
But
He was inspired by other stuff too.
Like he just didn't come out of a vacuum.
Like he was in literature, he was very educated.
He was very much in the folk scene, which was very much inspired by different spirituals and sort of music of the time.
But he took it and made it his own thing.
So I think that's part of what we do as songwriters and artists is
we're sort of like this hybrid of everything that we like and Not only what we like but what our ability is right?
Cuz I mean, let's be honest like It we all are sort of limited by either the voice we have however, we play our instruments like You know, no matter how hard I try.
I'm not gonna be Celine Dion, right?
So I'm not gonna be able to really sing those types of songs, but
I can do what I can do, but if I try to be Celine Dion, I might find something in the middle of Chad and Celine that becomes really cool, you know?
Yeah, and that question of like, what does it mean to be like Celine Dion, you're gonna, even if we both go on that same mission, you might focus in on one aspect of what she does
and I might focus on another.
And that interpretation is even individualist.
And I think that's one of the coolest things.
And I guess as I get older too, I worry less and less about copying people or...
stealing their ideas or any of that because like you said for once everything is derivative on some level but I know that I'm gonna mix and mash it with so many other
things whether I like it or not that it will most likely come out sounding different and have my own spin on it whatever that means so it's kind of freeing
it is freeing and I think too with with the creative process, you would almost drive yourself crazy worrying so much about is this 100 % never been done before?
Like, hopefully this doesn't sound like anything else.
And I tell people sounding like and copying is two different things, right?
You can have a song that sort of sounds like another song, but it's completely not the other song, right?
Like
To me, that's totally within the, you know, playing the rules, rules of the game, right?
Like even on Gaga's new album, there's a song called Killa that I think the verse melody sounds just like Prince's sign of the times.
And I saw online that even some other people are saying that too, but it's really just one part in this whole work that just reminds me of that.
But if somebody didn't know Prince or didn't know Sign of the Times, they wouldn't pick up on that, right?
I'm just at an age where I've kind of heard so much stuff that I'm constantly like, that sounds like that song and that sounds like that song.
But I don't worry about it as I'm writing.
Hmm.
Yes, well...
I've found when I'm in that creative process and I start worrying about this stuff, that's when it all falls apart.
I lose it.
I get too analytical.
Now I'm editing before I've even really created anything to edit.
And that's where I hit my obstacles and roadblocks.
I'm trying to be clever with my chords or I'm trying to do something interesting with the arrangements just to be interesting, not because it necessarily fits the song.
I just want to be like, like intellectual or something about it.
And now I'm out of it.
like you're trying to impress Rick Beato.
I'm trying to do something that people would be like, wow, instead of trying to just make stuff.
So it is a hard balance and kind of how I have thought about it over the years of dealing with it is I've come to the conclusion that emotion is everything.
So every decision that I make in my writing process, in my recording process, like am I doing this because it supports the emotion that I'm trying to communicate, right?
Like.
Or am I just doing this because I want to be cool or am I doing it to impress somebody?
And I think as writers, we it's really easy to get into this writing to impress mode where we sort of forget that our listeners don't care.
The only thing our listeners care about is do I feel something?
And is there is there a very concentrated emotion that the song communicates?
Right.
So.
It takes some the pressure off for me thinking about like, okay, if I want to do this, how does that support the underlying emotion that my song is about?
everything, lyrics, melody, harmony, the chords, even the groove, everything for me is decided by what emotion does it communicate?
And sometimes it's very simple.
Because that's what the emotion calls for right so that's helped me kind of
Get past that and I also heard a quote by somebody that says you don't have to redesign or invent a genre and I was like that takes some take some pressure off too because sometimes
Doesn't it feel you're like you're competing against like an entire universe of music and you're like, how do I stand out?
And it's really not about reinventing the wheel.
It's about making the listener feel something and I think a lot of people forget that
Hmm.
Yeah, that was a real big guiding light and a couple of things I've worked on recently.
The emotional impact was what I was calling it.
Like that's the king, emotional impact.
So if that meant that we auto-tuned something, we did that.
If that meant we did whatever, you know, whatever decision was solely based on emotional impact.
So it helped a lot.
But I think
maybe what you're saying is slightly different in that you've identified an emotion that you're chasing.
And I was wondering when you were saying all that, how early in the process do you identify that?
Is that something like you go into it with or do you sort of discover it?
Depends on the song.
I would say it's both really I think the sooner you can decide that the easier everything else becomes right so the emotion and your main point or the main message or the hook of
the song becomes sort of that North Star so the sooner you can Determine what that hook is or what the emotion is then you can sort of drive towards that with everything else
because
I've seen a lot of writers where they write a song and you'll be like, well, what is about?
And they'll be like, well, I don't know.
It's about like five different things.
And I'm like, well, what is the title?
You know, usually a title somehow is related to the hook.
And they'll be like, well, I don't have a title yet.
And usually for me, that's a sign that the song probably isn't very succinct.
Like, how do we know what it's about if the writer doesn't know what it's about?
Right.
Like.
And I understand some songs titles have different jobs to do, but at the same time, if you can't really explain it in like one or two sentences, you may be including too much,
right?
It may be, you may be going too wide instead of going deep on the emotion.
Okay, so you're saying we need to go deep, narrow and deep, rather than wide and shallow.
Right, right, because the more you can pull the listener into one situation, one emotion, the more they can have that experience with you.
And you have to be, you know, a lot of times people think, well, I want my music to touch as many people as possible, so I'm gonna write very vague, right?
Like I'm gonna write stuff that, you know, people can interpret it the way that they want to.
But what that actually does is it means that if people don't know what you're talking about, they have no way to know if they relate to it or not.
So.
A lot of times those songs are not lyrically driven.
Those songs are groove driven.
They're musically driven, like melody.
Because what really connects to the listeners is specificity and being specific.
So the more specific you can be, the more universal your song is, right?
Because then the listener puts themselves into the picture.
and then they can subconsciously decide, do I relate to this or not?
If that makes sense.
I think about that a lot, actually, the specificity, because I think there's an irony there.
Like, if I'm getting this specific, it's my situation and the details I went through.
How could other people ever relate?
Because it's so...
You you weren't walking across that bridge with a balloon in your hand when, you know, whatever happened.
But somehow that does really make us connect.
And the song I always come back to, and it's probably because I teach it in my high school classes, is Highway Patrolman by Bruce Springsteen.
And he's talking about his brother Frankie.
He's a highway patrolman and his brother Frankie is no good.
And he's getting into trouble.
and it's all about brotherly love and he's got to make this moral, ethical decision about whether he's loyal to his job or loyal to his brother because ultimately his brother gets
in trouble and he has to arrest him.
that is so specific.
I'm not a police officer, though I did have parents that were police officers.
Still, there's so much about it that...
is hard to connect to.
But even like high school kids, see them like kind of like, yeah, like sometimes in life, like you have these difficult decisions and two things you love that you have to decide
between.
That's the universal feeling, but it really comes out in this very specific story.
So I think that's the key, Like, what is Springsteen really writing about, you know, a highway patrolman?
No, he's actually writing about moral dilemmas, right?
So when you're thinking about...
Writing if you have the the moral of the story or you have sort of the emotion or what the song is about You can then use the the specific details to communicate that underlying
emotion So I think that's it.
That's a good example Think about songs by like John Mayer right like John Mayer writes very specific Lyrics, right?
Like in his song my stupid mouth.
He says like
You know, we looked out the window basically they're sitting at a cafe looking out the window.
She's playing with napkins He's playing he's like moving the salt and pepper shakers around
And like, it's just awkward because he said something stupid, right?
And the whole song is about his stupid mouth and how he always says dumb things.
But he paints such a visible and visual picture that it pulls us in as listeners.
And even though it's not our story, we can relate to it because we can sort of see it in our mind.
There's a really good song.
by Josh, I think it's by Josh Phillips.
He wrote it by Cody Johnson.
It's a country song called Dirt Cheap.
And
It's a rare country song that's written by one writer that actually was pretty successful, but it's called Dirt Cheap.
And when you listen to it, it's almost like watching a little movie in your head and it's about a farmer.
And I'm like the farthest thing from a farmer, but that song makes me tear up almost every time because I feel the emotion through the pictures.
And I think that's what a lot of songwriters forget is that
being specific in your lyric doesn't like hurt the mystique of the song, right?
It actually helps because your lyric isn't where the emotion or the vibe lives.
The vibe lives in the music.
So your lyric will never outright the music.
So you use the music to set the mood.
So I always say the music talks to your heart and then the lyric talks to your logic.
talks to your head.
So you have to have both of those things kind of working together, but that's how I kind of think about it.
Hmm.
Yeah, that's a cool way to think about it because yeah, it does a lot of the talking.
Right?
do, we do exercises and you're also a Berkeley online instructor as well we should probably mention but in my sampling class there's one week where we combine samples from
various sources and I always pull up the Mrs.
Doubtfire trailer from that movie from the 90s at Robin Williams comedy, family movie but someone reset it as a horror film so they took certain lines out of context.
They're my goddamn kids too.
know, and like put in this like really heavy like horror film, you know, big long drones and stuff and it changes everything.
But it's a really powerful example of how the music that you put to something, same exact material, but now it's a different film, different feeling.
I kind of think of it as fonts, right?
Like picture a font written in like a really pretty calligraphy script and it says like, love you, right?
Like it's very pretty, you're like, aw.
But now imagine it like letters that look like dripping blood and like Halloween letters that says I love you.
And it's like, I love you.
You know what I mean?
same words, but a completely different meaning.
And I think that's how lyric and music work together is just because you're saying something doesn't mean that that's what you're saying necessarily.
So you have to decide what is the emotion that I'm communicating.
And then you make decisions based on, you know, do I use balanced or
kind of like stable rhyme schemes?
Do I use different rhyme types?
Do I use different lengths of lines to make things seem unstable?
Do I use stable chords?
Do I use unstable chords?
What is the rhythm doing?
Like there's all these decisions that you can put into the work that helps you deliver the message.
Because what you're saying is only part of it.
How you say it is super important as well.
Yeah, I love that concept of stability.
I'm wondering if you mind going into that a little bit.
So how would one go about stable chords versus unstable or even lyrically rhyme scheme you mentioned?
A few different ways we can look at stability and instability and why we would want one where, one place, one in another.
So stability is created by balance, right?
So things that resolve, things that come to a resolution.
Within a rhyme scheme, like let's say you have, Mary had a little lamb, fleece was white as snow, everywhere that Mary went, the lamb was sure to go, right?
You have two lines that set up a pattern and then the next two lines match the pattern.
So that's stable.
But what if I said, Mary had a little lamb fleece was white as snow everywhere that Mary went, the lamb was sure to fly.
Now all of a sudden there's tension, right?
Because we were expecting another O rhyme, but we got fly instead.
So that's unstable.
Now, what if we shorten that last line?
Mary had a little lamb, fleece was white as snow, everywhere that Mary went, there he was.
So now that's less stable than the section before, right?
rhythm and rhyme, correct.
So when you're writing...
you have to think is my topic, and this is totally Pat Patterson level stuff, and I learned this at Berkeley, and this is what I teach at Berkeley.
But you think about your topic, and you say is my emotion stable or unstable?
And then you apply the structure to help relate to that, right?
And you can even do it with different rhyme types, like,
Like let's say snow and go, but what if we had snow and froze?
Right?
That's a less stable rhyme because we're adding that Z sound.
What if we had, like snow and home?
Right?
So like there's, there's less stability there.
What if we had home and
Home and him.
You know, or like Bob Dylan.
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
That's a consonant rhyme.
So you have a different vowel, but you have the same consonant on the end.
And that's a less stable rhyme than a perfect rhyme.
So a perfect rhyme has the words start differently.
They have the same vowel and then they have the same thing happening after the vowel.
So it's a full resolution.
So that's why sometimes songs, even though you understand them logically, you don't connect with them emotionally because there's too much resolution and the rhyme becomes
more, I guess, loud or it stands out more than the message.
if that makes sense.
Well, think actually you mentioned blowing in the wind and if there's a perfect song out there, like if you said, me a perfect song, that one's up there.
I can't even believe a person wrote that song.
It just seems like it would have been around forever.
But what he is saying is there is an answer.
but we don't quite have it yet.
It's there, it's right out there, right in front of us maybe even, but we don't quite have it.
So to have this less stable, because there is an answer, so there's some stability in that, but we don't have it.
It's another level on how that song works so well.
Right?
How much conscious effort do you put into this?
Because we were just saying before that if you overthink it, if you try to get too clever, you also can lose the train that you're trying to ride.
I'm curious.
Yeah, don't think it's necessarily being clever.
I think it's being thoughtful about prosody, right?
So what we're talking about is the concept of how does structure support lyrical message?
what you're saying is like, wow, this is really technical and do I wanna sit and think about this?
And people will be like, do you think Dylan thought about this?
It doesn't matter what the writer thought, but the song is doing it, right?
Like regardless of if Dylan thought about that or not, he still used friend and wind.
Like how did he come to that decision?
Who knows, right?
But there's still a rhyme as a sonic relationship and the words friend and wind, most people would say like those don't rhyme, but they actually do.
It's the consonant that's rhyming instead of the vowel.
But to answer your question about where does this come in the process, usually it comes in the editing phase.
So usually it's a good idea to create and get a whole bunch of material, sort of get the first draft, get the spark out, right?
But then go back and look, how can I make this support?
an emotion better?
Or how do I make it support emotions more strong or stronger?
So you may read your section, you'll be like, something feels off.
Well, what if you just drop a line?
So now instead of having four lines that balance, what if you only have three lines that are unbalanced?
And does that tension
fit with the way it feels.
So it all comes down to feel and how does that equate with what you want the listener to feel or what is your character feeling?
So I think about it kind of all the time because I'm aware of it, but at the same time, I don't let it limit the creativity.
I use it as an option.
So it's a kind of what happens if...
Instead of rhyming friend and end like like just just take that line the answer my friend Is standing at the end That doesn't have the same emotion as the answer my friend is
blowing in the wind Now all of a sudden we're like Floating right like it feels like it's not resolved.
Well, the wind isn't resolved the answer like you said isn't resolved
It's blowing.
But think of how many writers would write it as a perfect rhyme.
You know what I mean?
So they're limiting the emotion of their piece.
It's a really interesting choice actually the more you think of it because the my friend part is kind of unnecessary.
The concept still comes across if he says the answer is blown in the wind, which he does immediately afterwards.
But to throw in my friend, you get that kind of unstable rhyme.
Like you said, there's some stability, but not complete, but it's also got the emotional baggage of friend.
He's talking to us, my friend, you know, he's kind of comforting us in a way, but also pointing out the problem.
I mean, it just, it lands on so many levels so well.
But the other thing that you're referring to here then is who is the singer singing to, right?
So things that are important to think about when you're writing is point of view.
So who is singing, who are they singing to, and why?
So the song, Blowing in the Wind, starts with a bunch of questions.
Well, who is the singer asking those questions to?
And he's establishing point of view by saying, my friend.
So is my friend, my friend to me when I hear that song, it feels like he's talking to us, right?
But if he just asked a bunch of questions and he never said another character, we wouldn't know who the singer is talking to and it wouldn't anchor it into a concrete like sort of
message, right?
Like we need to know why is the singer telling it because it matters who they're telling it to.
Does that make sense?
So what he's doing is he's establishing point of view, which also can have an effect on emotion.
Hmm.
Yeah, the characters in the song are the speaker, the actual people in the song, and then who's listening is another angle at it.
They all do play into it and change the way we interpret based on that, because he could be kind of complaining to society or the world or the government.
but that he brings it back to my friend, meaning like us.
Part of, think, what he's trying to say too is we're the ones that can do something about it.
So it's very well put together.
yeah, I could understand people saying like, well, was he really thinking about that?
might just rolled off his tongue nicely, which it does.
But.
I think to fear that more knowledge is going to inhibit you is not really the case.
Like you said, it's a choice.
Like now you just have another option, something you're aware of.
Like you said that, okay, so something's not working here.
Well, I know about like, you know, maybe a three line part would be nice because it's going to be unsettling.
Or I want to settle this part nicely because I want to put a cap on this thought.
Right.
You know, at Berkeley we teach tools, not rules.
Right?
So the idea of tools, or let's start with rules, right?
Like rules are usually things like don't do this, right?
Like rules are like things you can't do.
Tools give you options of what you could try.
So when you're talking lyric, you really have five tools.
So you have the number of lines, you have the length of the lines, which is the number of stressed syllables.
You also have the rhythm pattern of the line.
So that is the rhythmic pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables.
Then you also have your rhyme scheme and your rhyme type.
So those are really the five tools that you have to play with when it comes to structure within Lyric.
So you can experiment with all of those things to see what feels the best.
I'm writing them down right now just because I'm aware of all these things but to see them in front of you is handy because you know you always think of them in the moment or just
to know like okay I'm working on this song so I'm trying to figure it out maybe I need to change the length maybe I need to alter the rhyme or or fake out the rhyme
I think a lot of music is playing around with expectations, like you kind of mentioned before.
We expect something to happen and then if it doesn't, so it's this balance of familiar, unfamiliar, expected and unexpected.
And if you go too far in any either direction, it kind of doesn't work.
You get too familiar and then it's like, you know, just cliche and obvious what's going to happen next.
And if you
go too far, then it's like, I don't know where we are.
I don't know where the one is.
And I don't know what's the, it becomes very abstract.
To me, when people say clever, that's what that means is it's almost like it's on the edge of like, I'm just doing this because I'm gonna do it.
And I know some songwriters that they just like to, they say they wanna break the rules, even though there are no rules, they like to break the rules, right?
And then they'll make these songs that are totally just wacky and they're just trying to sort of like show off like, hey, look at how clever I am as a songwriter.
And I just think that's not the right way to think about it, right?
I think you prove your worth as a songwriter by making somebody feel something in my mind, right?
So if you're doing something that's clever, sometimes you risk it becoming like a novelty, right?
Which there's nothing wrong with that if novelty is what you're going for.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like...
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes you might want to be funny and you might want to be a little bit over the top But that's because the song calls for it, right?
like maybe the song is about falling in love and you're just like a blithering like clown all the time and then all of a sudden you're like, yeah, let's just throw in these the
structure or let's throw in these things that are Clownish because it fits with what's happening You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, it's another tool, right?
I think that might be part of the reason I've not really enjoyed...
Some music people think that I'm going to enjoy, that's really, well, listen to like the time signature here, and like you never know where they're going to go, and listen how
good they play their instrument.
I mean, some of it's impressive.
just from like as a musician and the ability to like move my fingers, it's impressive.
But it doesn't take me too far.
My friends will send me like a video of like a 11 year old shredding over like some famous song that's better than the original solo.
it's like, they're very good.
It's impressive.
But it's that's a whole other.
It's like another sport or something.
This this idea of.
I think.
know if it's called virtuosity, but because it's almost to me like misapplied virtuosity, but my maybe it's just my goal is a little different where I'm trying to make the music
not just play the instrument really well.
Does that make sense?
difference, right?
Like, can someone on an instrument make you feel something and can that be entertaining?
like, absolutely.
That's not really what I aim for though.
I'm more of a songwriter that I want someone to connect with the song.
And a lot of times it doesn't have to be complicated.
It doesn't have to be showy in order to communicate something really powerful, right?
Like think of the song like I can't make you love me if you don't Like think of how simple that is like turn down the lights turn down the bed turn down these voices inside my head,
right and the music just The tempo the music just like pulls at your heartstrings, right?
It's very subtle.
It's very Unassuming but yet that song really touches a ton of people
So there's a place for everything, right?
And then you think about dance music and dance music, is that supposed to be talking to our head?
No.
You sometimes people will like poo poo on pop music or dance music and they'll be like, the lyrics are cheesy, man.
Like they're no Bob Dylan.
And it's like,
Yeah, but people aren't listening to that for the same reason.
Like people want to dance to dance music.
So they want to be physically invested instead of mentally invested, right?
So there's different listener investment, I think that happens.
And you as the writer get to decide like, what is the star of the show here?
Like, is it the groove?
Is it the music?
And then if it's the groove and the music,
You don't have to write as many lyrics.
You don't have to write as complicated of lyrics.
But if you want to be a singer songwriter where it's you and just a single instrument, more than likely, it's going to be a little bit more melody and lyric focused, right?
Because those are going to be more of the star of the show, more so than the accompaniment of it.
So I think there's a place for all of it.
And it makes me mad when people like sort of downplay certain genres because like, do you think that those writers care any less about the craft than like what you do?
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's something getting into production has taught me actually quite a lot.
And even, sometimes it might be just like pop music that comes out that feels generic or maybe kind of riding a trend, know, vapid, vapid, right?
Like some of that kind of stuff.
But the kind of magic is in the production in that part of the craft.
And I think electronic and dance music is a good example of music that has its purpose in that you're out and you're with this group of people having this sort of communal
experience and that there's something physical about music.
mean, it is literally physical movement of air.
So when you're in that, mean, stand in front of a huge guitar amp and just play an A chord, I mean, that's satisfying and to feel
the thumping of like those sub speakers it definitely does something to you and you probably don't want the lyrics getting in the way of that too much maybe something like
which is why I like the repetitious repetitive lines that get are often in that kind of music is there to get you in that hypnotic state of mind
100%.
But now imagine taking those songs and just having someone playing an acoustic guitar with a very repetitive chord pattern and then just repeating the same lyric, right?
That doesn't translate very well.
It might, but yeah.
but gotcha.
It's something, I think we spoke about this a little bit maybe on Saturday at the At Home Songwriting Meeting Group where we were talking about the purpose.
What is the purpose of the song?
Who's listening to it?
For what reason?
What are they doing?
Am I driving home at night from the party?
Am I at the party?
Am I trying to fall asleep?
Am I doing yoga or meditation or am I hitting the gym?
All of those call for much different types of experiences and music will color it in a much different way each time.
Yeah, and I think too, like thinking of the purpose as a writer, thinking of the purpose of your song is important because you can't have everything, like you can't have a really
killer lyric plus a killer melody, plus a killer guitar part, plus a killer beat.
like all of these things that are at like level 10, like something has to stand out otherwise nothing stands out, right?
So I think as, as songwriters, we kind of have to determine
What is sort of the role that this song plays?
Like, am I speaking like emotionally to someone?
Am I speaking intellectually to someone?
I think there are songs that speak to our intellect more than our emotion, right?
A lot of times protest songs or like sort of current event type songs.
I mean, they're emotional, but they're also really talking about very concrete like
current things that are very intellectual as well.
And then there's also the songs like we talked about with the dance music where it's like people just want to have a good time.
Like, like you don't want to cry on the dance floor necessarily, right?
Like that might kind of ruin the night.
Yeah, it's something I picked up on playing in bands and most of the time when we play out, it's Friday night, Saturday night at a social event, a bar half the time or a club
and no one really wants to hear your sappy artistic, deep seated, indulgent project.
They often, they want to be lifted up and that's became like in
understanding what we were doing with our music in certain bands that became like the point.
Like, all right, we're here to like make everybody have more fun.
So let's do that.
It helped writing the songs though because you had the purpose.
So many decisions are made for you before you even start.
That's one of the hardest things is to decide.
Like you said, you want to have the song that's this and that and all these like excellent features that are over the top.
But probably most songs that you love are the song that does like this one thing.
It's got this standout thing about it that you remember.
this is the song that has that.
insert whatever not 47 things that it does
Well, and I hear a lot of newer writers coming to me and they want to learn about chords, right?
They're like, I need better chords because they think better chords equals better song.
And what I like to remind them is that your chords are not your song.
Your chords are there to color the melody and they're there to color the lyric.
So there's a reason why there's millions of songs that only have three chords, right?
Like because they have enough emotion, they have enough movement in order to color what's happening melodically, what's happening lyrically.
If you make your chords too complicated, people won't pay attention to what you're saying.
So if you want people to pay attention to what you're saying, the more simple you can make the chords and the more simple you can make the melody, the better because
You don't want to have people subconsciously trying to figure out your song.
You want them listening and feeling the song.
I always say that once you make people think, you've lost them.
So sometimes writers like to almost write a riddle.
Like, well, I don't really give the message until like after the bridge, right?
Like really late in the song.
It's like, nobody's gonna even get there.
You know what I mean?
Like.
You need to make it so they feel it and they get it as soon as possible because and it's even worse in today's day and age where the average playtime on Spotify is less than seven
seconds.
So if you don't catch somebody within about seven seconds, like they're not gonna listen to your song.
really the idea here is
You don't want your listener doing a like a story problem.
You want them feeling and getting like immersed in your story.
So how do you do that?
How do you how do do that lyrically?
How do you do that musically?
A lot of times it's not by getting more complicated.
It's about getting more intentional on structure, right?
So thinking about how does this move and how does this communicate the emotion that you're trying to say?
So do you have any thoughts on how we can do that musically?
How we can pull people into the story early on so that they want to stick around and make it past seven seconds?
I'm always thinking, I'm surprised it's that long, but I guess there are songs people actually listen to the whole thing, which probably really skews this.
It's probably at the extremes, right?
Like two seconds and four minutes.
Probably, right, right.
I mean, music wise, mean, listen to the songs that you like, right?
And just listen to the intro and take a song and really pay attention to like, is the music doing to set that mood before even one word is even said, right?
And a lot of times you will find...
that that emotion is being established before the singer even says anything.
Like, and it's fun to do if you take a song that you don't know, and just play the intro and then write down what you think it could be about, and then play the rest of it and see
if you were right.
But how you establish that emotion is you establish it through
the sound through the emotion.
So it comes back to this idea of stable and unstable, right?
Are you having resolved chords?
Are you adding some tension, right?
Like, well, how do you add tension to a chord?
Well, let's take a C major chord.
What if you add in the D, the two, right?
So you have C major, so you're playing like a C add nine.
Like a C add nine has a little bit of tension that your straight up triad doesn't have.
Right?
And then what if you take your C major chord instead of playing the D, what if you play the F instead?
Like what does that emotion sound like?
And then what if you play the A on the chord?
So that almost becomes an inverted A minor seven chord, right?
So the notes of the scale all have different harmonic functions.
that build or they either build tension or they resolve.
So when you hear people talk about songwriting is all tension and release, tension and release, that's what people are talking about is are you staying resolved or are you
adding tension somewhere, if that makes sense?
And how do you add tension?
You add it through pitch and you add it through rhythm.
So you can make something feel tense by the, you playing a steady rhythm or are you playing an offbeat rhythm?
Are you playing an unpredictable rhythm or are you playing exactly on a grid?
Right?
So all of those things go into the emotion or how it communicates.
So we're thinking about just that, again, that feeling, I suppose, is the answer really of what, I mean, it helps sometimes, like you're saying, like to really like listen to the
sound of the chords, to play them slow and just kind of soak them in a little bit to notice this stuff.
Cause sometimes even an inversion of a chord.
like a C major, if you start it with like that, the low E in the bass feels a little darker and it has a different mood than if we start just C, E, G, you know, real stable,
real unoffensive chord there.
No, that's a perfect example.
Like a C with an E in the bass or the first inversion is not as stable as the root position.
Right?
So even though you're playing a C, like if you're in the key of C, you're home, but maybe you didn't lock the door.
Right?
Like there's a little bit of tension there.
You're not completely home, but you're close enough.
But now if you play a G chord in the key of C, now there's, I mean, a G chord is pretty resolved, right?
Because it's, you know, one of the one, four, five.
So it has its own sense of resolution, but it wants to pull back to that C.
So there's a lot of tension in the G chord.
So that's where a lot of times you will see songs like in a pre-chorus or a bridge going to a different degree of the scale.
for the chord progression because it's building tension that will then resolve when you get to the chorus that may or may not start on the one if that makes sense
Right.
Yeah, you're sort of saving that mood for later.
I think about that actually a lot and contrasting a verse from a chorus or pre-chorus or bridge, just kind of like, all right, where haven't I gone yet?
Does it make sense to go there?
Sometimes it makes sense to not go there at all.
But,
Well, and you mentioned tempo.
Tempo is such a forgotten thing.
Just changing the tempo of a song can completely change the emotion of it.
Same words, same chords, sing it at a slower tempo, it can mean something completely different than if it was sped up.
Hmm.
Yeah, all interesting factors you have to consider.
Yeah.
trying to figure out why do people react to certain songs and why, why do certain songs have the ability to make people cry or what makes them want to, for me, it started with
groove, like what makes people want to dance or what, what, what makes something sound or feel funky, right?
Like, cause I grew, I was growing up on Prince, Janet Jackson, like,
how do they make these songs feel the way that they do and like what are they doing to make that happen?
And that's kind of what led me on the whole rabbit hole that never ended for me.
Yeah, I think for me it was like, why does this song rock?
Why is this song intense right here?
What's happening?
Yeah.
why do you wanna, why the second you hear it do you wanna move to it?
What about it does that?
Yeah, now it's moving, it's driving, it's...
You know, I'm gonna shake my head to it, pump my fist.
Yeah, well from a songwriting perspective too, I like to think about like, why do some songs, like, I don't know if you've ever gone to a performance of someone at like an open
mic or a coffee shop and they play their own song.
Yeah, they play their own song and you're like, it's okay.
And then all of a sudden they start playing a cover song and all of a sudden
the environment of the room changes and now all of a sudden you're pulled in.
And I was always like, why, if it's the same singer, same playing ability, what is different about that cover song that pulls me in that their original song doesn't?
You know, cause I have a friend who will remain nameless.
But when she performs her own songs, I don't feel it.
But when she performs cover songs, like it's a completely different experience.
And I've always wondered why.
And I've come to the conclusion that I think it's melody.
I think it comes down to the melody that is supporting the lyrics.
I think there's something that hit songs have, and I think melody is really important in that equation.
Hmm.
Well, in what way?
There's a lot to melody, right?
And it ties in with the lyrics.
Do you think the melodies are not as interesting?
Are they too complicated?
Do they not fit?
No, I just think they're not structured.
So a melody doesn't have to be complicated to be effective, right?
Like it could be just a melody could be on one note and it's the rhythm that plays the important role, right?
Because melody is really just pitches played in rhythm.
So it's rhythm plus pitch and
I think what it is is if you listen to songs, there is a melodic pattern just like there are rhyme schemes.
So if you listen to songs, you will find that they have a repetition pattern of
Something that's like same same different same same different right like so you might have an aab a Or like an ab ab or an aab b And i'm not talking about rhyme i'm talking about
lines that have the same melody And I think what effective songs do Is the repetition in the melody?
gives the listener a subconscious roadmap of where they are in the song.
And instead of concentrating on the melody, they can listen then to the lyric because they don't have to think about the melody.
part of our job as songwriters is to really teach our listeners how to sing our song, right?
And again, your lyric will never outshine your music.
So like a really good lyric will never save a weak melody.
Whereas a really strong melody could save a weak lyric, but it's not vice versa.
So I think my theory is...
the melody becomes what a lot of songwriters should focus on to improve their writing the fastest.
Because I think people have pretty good ideas lyrically, but if the melody's not there, I just don't think it lands very well.
I've noticed it, yeah, doing open mic nights for decades and even seeing bands and watching the opening band and comparison.
I find that there's almost like a simplicity to the catchier stuff, the stuff that hits.
It might be like AABA, whereas in, the...
original song or the cover band or the opening band will have like A B C D E F A and it's just kind of too much or there might just be there might even be a great melody but
there's all this other stuff working as well that detracts from it and I find when I'm producing music in the computer and when I'm writing I think it's because I get used to it
early
because we never hear our songs for the first time.
So I get used to this melody or whatever I have that I liked a lot when I was making it, but now I know the twists and turns and I'm bored with it so now I'll make a counter
melody and I'll make this other part that kind of...
And next thing you know, everything's lost.
Instead of this one nice thing shining through, it's just a crowd and it's cluttered.
Yeah.
And I think it happens a lot when people write lyric first, right?
Like, because a lot of times when we're writing lyric first, we're not thinking about rhythm.
We're just thinking about message.
So what happens when you start to put it to music then is you end up with these really wandery melodies because you're trying to cram lyrical rhythm into musical rhythm.
And sort of the way past this is to think intentionally about what's happening in your lyric and write to a lyrical rhythm before you even put it to music, right?
So I find it easy a lot of times to come up with a concept and then I'll make a melody and then I'll write lyrics to the melody.
And I think my songs are stronger because...
I'm writing to a set melody and then that way I can, I think it gives the listener these guide posts on where they are in the song.
And if you study songs like Fire and Rain by James Taylor, right?
Just yesterday morning, they let me know you were gone.
Suzanne the plans they made put an end to you.
So there's three lines there.
So you have morning Gone you So it's a kind of ABC, right and then the next lines woke up Walked out this morning and I wrote down this song
Just can't remember who to send it to So you have morning song 2
So instead of morning gone you, it's morning song two.
So you have ABC ABC rhyme scheme and the melodic pattern is also ABC.
So it goes ABC ABC both for the melody and both for the rhyme scheme.
So one thing you'll notice if you study hit songs is that the lines that rhyme many times have the same melody.
So it's a good place to start and kind of teach yourself how to be a little bit more intentional about structure.
And I think you'll find that people will start commenting and connecting with your songs more because they don't know what's happening, but they know that it feels more
professional.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, absolutely.
And another point about just those lines too, they're kind of complete phrases that like, I really like when lyrics just sound natural, almost like they're spoken.
And you have a video on this recently about like stressed syllables and things like that.
And you kind of get into this, but just yesterday morning is like a phrase someone would say, they let me know you were gone.
Like it's...
It's a part one and part two of that sentence.
That's where punctuation would go.
know, there's natural cadence to it where if it was like just yesterday morning, it's disconnected and you kind of lost the train of thought as the listener.
You're processing it in that one group that it's presented in.
I think some of the best advice I remember getting on this podcast about singing and lyric writing was you want to tell the story and you want to just have it come out natural.
Focus on making it natural first and then work with that.
But sometimes when we write the lyrics first, we wind up with these kind of weird broken apart things because the melody and the lyrics are not together.
It doesn't follow this sort of question answer or this kind of natural punctuation that we have in our speech.
Right, right.
And what's interesting about that is, you know, just yesterday morning, comma, they let me know you were gone.
That pause kicks it to a new melodic phrase.
So a lot of times you don't want to split a thought between two lines unless there's a natural place to do it.
And that's kind of what you're talking about.
Like you said, just yesterday morning, they let me know you were gone.
Sounds weird, but
We do that as writers sometimes.
And that's called an enjambment, where it's two thoughts split over two lines.
And the other thing about, like songs like this too, is you want to stay conversational and you want to establish a who, when, and aware as soon as possible, or at least two of
the three, right?
So just yesterday morning, that's a when.
They let me know you were gone, that's a who.
Suzanne the plans they made put an end to you So that's more about the what so you have a who a when and a what?
I got up this morning That's when I wrote down this song.
So that's a who and a what I just can't remember who to send it to That's more of a thought so we really don't get aware right, but we get a who when and a what?
So the more information you can give your listener early in the song, that information sticks with the listener throughout the entire song.
So if you wait till too late in the song to introduce a character or introduce an idea,
That information doesn't color what's already happened.
Information runs forward within the song.
So establishing that point of view, establishing kind of that situation is so important to do that in that first verse.
And that's really the job of the first verse is to establish the who, when, where, kind of what's happening.
And then your chorus tells you, why did we just tell you all of this stuff?
The chorus is the emotional center.
The chorus is the emotional why.
So a lot of times you don't, you're not giving the listener a whole bunch new information in your chorus.
You're just summarizing and kind of talking about the emotion.
Yeah, I think that's kind of the message.
Great.
kind of theme in the chorus and then all the other stuff is like you said setting and time place who yeah it's helpful to think that way too because again like this just gives you
these choices where otherwise it's hard to know where to begin where to start
I find for myself, in order to get this right, my lyric writing process is usually blabber, singing, nonsense, where I'm trying to just find consonants, vowels, timing,
rhythm, and shapes.
And in that process, something comes out.
I might say something, it just kind of falls out and then it's like, there we go.
That's a good thing I can work around.
But...
Do you?
less often do I write something first and then try to put it to music.
It just doesn't happen.
do you start with music first usually?
Or at least a groove or like a, yeah.
I like to keep like lyric ideas.
So I've got a giant list of things I think would make good titles or lines or just topics.
But it's very unusual that I write them out and then put the music to it just because the music is the thing that...
It's like the vehicle.
I need to pick out the vehicle before I put the people in the car.
I don't know.
I guess you could pick people and then find a car, but I think it's a lot harder.
It's easier to have the car and know how many people I can fit.
Stretch that metaphor.
think the more, well, you have to know where you're going too, right?
Like once you get the car, you kind of have to know, like, well, where are we going?
Are we just gonna sit here?
Are we gonna go somewhere?
But.
knowing what kind of car helps you determine where you're to go, right?
Like, the sound of this thing informs the lyrical content.
Right.
I think the more I study like hit songwriters and things, I think a lot of times the music is coming first.
And I think a lot of times if the lyric is early in the process, it's almost at the same time as the music.
I think there's very few.
people that are writing a lyric and then setting it to music.
I think there's such an important relationship between the two that the sooner you can start putting them together, the better.
Now that that I mean, there's times where I'll write a verse and then figure out how it goes.
And then I'll create music for the court that contrast to that for the chorus and like
you know, kind of go from there.
But I find my songs when I start lyric first are not as strong as when I start with melody and music first.
If that makes sense.
Definitely, because you hear it and they say, that's a feeling and that makes me think about this.
Memories start popping up or you start imagining things to go with it where you just don't get that.
The music, like you said, that's the heart part and the mind reacts to the heart.
We think about the way we feel and that's where my supposed lyrics start coming in.
Well, music is universal, right?
Like music is sort of the universal language.
You can hear a song that's in a language you don't understand, and you can still kind of tell what emotion they're communicating.
So, you know, the fact that that emotion isn't really coming from the lyric takes a little bit of pressure off of us.
But I think what's fun to do sometimes is if you have a title idea or you have a line.
run it through different emotions.
Like if I'm writing a happy song, what does this title mean?
If I'm writing a sad song, what does this title mean?
If I'm writing a song about nostalgia, what does the title mean?
If I'm writing a song about betrayal, what does the title mean?
You know, like and run it through these different lenses of emotion.
And you might find that what you originally thought isn't as cool as something that sort of raises its hand and says like, that feels really cool.
Hmm.
Yeah, that's a cool idea.
Because I do that a lot with my list of ideas, because I might have something and then I'll just kind of scan it and I'll be like, I thought that was going to be happy or sad or
and now it's like kind of a joke or now it's it's, you know, sarcastic in this context.
And that's all because of the shading the music gives it.
Yeah, so like that's why some people think like well I want to write a really sad song, but I want the music to be really happy Well, you can definitely do that But does that
what emotion does that communicate?
Like are you cool if people look at that as being sarcasm or kind of a sense of irony in a way?
you know Because I get it some people are like well if i'm writing a sad song then I don't just want to make it sad like that sounds so cliche, but
It's cliche to us as writers and are we writing to impress our other writer friends or are we writing to impress like the people that are not writers, right?
Yeah, think Impress is just the wrong angle.
It doesn't work for me usually.
It's a front kind of, it's like a flex or something, you know, it's not a real emotion really.
I'm writing to impress my five monthly listeners on Spotify.
No, no, I think when I write, like, I just want to write the best song that I can and I want it to feel good to me because I'm probably the person that's going to listen to my
song more than anybody else.
And I always look at every song as a learning experience because that takes some of the pressure off of perfection, right?
Like.
Let's just see what happens.
And this is just an experiment.
I'm just learning.
And it helps to kind of take out that like I have to write a masterpiece today.
You know what I mean?
If I just look at it as like I'm just practicing, then it's just practice.
How long do you generally spend writing a song?
That's a good question.
I would say from nothing to like mixed and mastered is probably about seven to eight hours, but rarely is that ever a linear seven or eight hours, if that makes sense, because
I have a day job, I have the Berkeley gig, I have at home songwriting, I have my YouTube channel, I have a partner, I have a dog, like I live life, so.
I would say I can do about a song a week.
You know, if you spread it out over the course of a week, you know, I might be coming up with part of a track one day and then living with the melody for a while.
And like I work in these little chunks.
But if you added it all together and if I had all the time in the world, I could start with nothing to like mix and mastered that's recording, writing, everything in about
seven, eight hours.
Okay, do you find yourself writing the song completely before you hit record anywhere?
Or are you kind of putting it together?
Okay.
interwoven in the process.
I think I have this impression of like songwriting teachers as they sit down at the piano or guitar and they get the whole entire thing together.
And that's writing a song where for me it's become more of a blend.
You know, it used to be when I was younger and that's all I had.
You had to write the whole song, but I don't know if I'm...
copping out sometimes.
I think of it almost like where I want to like hear something come together but so I'm going to kind of skip the writing phase and do it as I go.
So I mean, I think there are people who write a song and then they go and they record it, right?
Like, I'm not really...
sometimes for me still but probably more often I'm the other way.
to me, think my DAW, like I'm a logic person.
So like to me, like it's almost part of the writing process, right?
Like sometimes I'm inspired by a sound or I'm inspired by a beat or I can't play and sing what I hear in my head at the same time.
So I record the keyboard part first.
And then I sort of work out the melody on top of that, right?
So, because I find if I'm trying to work out a melody as I'm playing, everything is on grid because I'm, you know, the downbeats are extra heavy and like everything's kind of as
I'm clomping out these parts.
I think for me, the recording process is part of the writing process.
But some people would say, well, but then you kind of paint yourself into a corner sometimes because what if you want to change the song, then you have to go back and change
all of the production.
And I think that's a valid point.
But I'm also not a big go back and change everything person.
Like I trust my instinct enough to make decisions in the process, and I'm not afraid to commit.
We were talking when you were on my.
Pro writer group the other day You were talking about having a four track cassette recorder where you used to take three tracks and bounce them to one Like we really had to
commit because I used to do that too Where you could have more parts you just have to bounce them and then you couldn't unbounce them back in the day, right?
So kids out there watching this we couldn't just undo
No, you were really, you were really jumping off a ledge with that move.
But I think for me, I'm not afraid to commit to certain things and I can always go back and change things if I want to, but a lot of times it's, like I said, it's kind of a
learning experience and am I out anything if this song doesn't end up being the best thing in the world?
No.
But again, like who am I to judge that though?
Sometimes the songs I don't like, people really respond to.
You know what I mean?
So.
Yeah, I think the moral of the story is for me, it's all kind of the process, like recording, writing.
And I think that's pretty common these days, to be honest.
I even think in Nashville, a lot of times you have a lyric person, you have a melody person, and then you have a track guy or girl.
More guys, more girls need to get into production, but that's another topic.
But...
I think even there you're walking out of a session with a semi-produced work tape at the end of the day, right?
Because writers in Nashville are writing one to two songs every single day, maybe one or two sessions, and they can knock out, go from nothing to a work tape demo in three or four
hours.
So like, I think that's just part of our musical world now is the technology.
Yeah, I think there's a part of me that feels like that it has to be, you know, to be a songwriter.
You do it all like in that one sitting with one instrument and then you move on to recording.
And I think there's value to that because you kind of have the bigger picture in mind a little bit and you can...
can have a sense of where it's going.
yeah, I'm in the same way where the sound might inspire me and that triggers the emotion that gets things going.
And a lot of times if I'm even making songs on my guitar, the guitar winds up coming out.
It's not a guitar song, but it might've been what got me going.
But I guess it just goes to show this.
Like you said, there's tools, not rules.
And it doesn't really matter at the end of the day how you got there.
I mean, what matters is, is the song strong though, right?
Like there is a such thing as relying too much on production.
I think for me, when I am using production tools, I'm still focused on the core of the song.
I'm still focused on the chords, the melody and the lyric.
And then I could always change the production, right?
But in that process, I'm still writing the...
the foundation of the song is there.
So it would still work just as an instrument and vocal.
It's often a good test of a song, if it holds up when you strip it down.
I've heard that called the campfire test.
Like, could somebody sing it around a campfire?
Like, or just if it if it's a recording, just take the vocal and and one part and does it still work?
Yeah, but I don't think that means...
there's some music that is really effective with all its production and that might not hold up, you you can't play a lot of like some of the EDM stuff we were talking about, but
they are great songs on their own with that whole...
it's the whole package rather than just this more stripped down thing.
Right.
Yeah, it depends on the genre.
But there are production heavy genres where you couldn't do the campfire test unless you had a Bluetooth speaker out by the campfire and then you can just play the whole thing.
you go.
Do you find yourself getting stuck from time to time, challenges?
How do you overcome those moments?
you know, I, my whole life revolves around songwriting.
like in some, some ways I'm either teaching or thinking about this stuff, like nonstop.
I would say that I don't get writer's block in the sense that I don't know like how to write or I don't know where I'm going or like, I can pretty much write from anything, but
I find as a singer songwriter.
I sometimes don't know what I want to say as an artist.
Does that make sense?
Like, cause I'm in my, I'm in my upper forties.
So like, I'm probably not going to write love songs about finding relationships, right?
Like I'm in a long-term relationship.
My songs aren't going to be about that.
I'm not going to write about young people stuff.
My stuff doesn't have the slang like some younger people would have.
So then I start thinking about, well, do I write about spiritual things?
Do I write about my hometown?
Do I write about struggles that you go through in your 40s and like, you know, are people interested?
like for me, it's less about how do I turn that into a song, but more of like, what do I really want to say?
If that makes sense.
So I think that's my struggle a lot is like.
And I've written so many songs that I sometimes feel like I've been there, done that.
I don't know if that makes sense.
Of course it does, yeah.
I guess that's part of the blockage a lot of people have.
You understand technically what to do, what tools you can employ, but still you have to decide what you're gonna make.
And that's always challenging.
What do you wanna say?
What do you have?
It's just another challenge in this whole puzzle of doing this where I guess just because you have the technical know-how and you can just construct it, like, what are we going to
build today?
What would be meaningful?
What would feel good right now?
But then I play these games with myself, and you wrote a whole book on this, but I made like 200, like I just got no cards, and I went through and I found like 200 songs that I
like, and I wrote down topics.
Kind of high-level topics not like the actual detail, but I wrote down all these topics that I know work in song So sometimes I'll play these prompt games with myself in order to
write Like this card.
I just pulled says you can't break me Well now I could run with that and I know exactly how to turn that into a song And is that my story though, right?
So that's why I think as a writer
I don't necessarily get blocked, but when I think of myself as a singer songwriter, it's like, who am I as Chad?
What does Chad want to sing about?
So it's like this weird, subtle meta thing that happens.
But if you give me a prompt, I can go to town on it, right?
Like this one says, what happens when people break up?
Like I have like 200 topics that I, you know, just pull one and go.
that it corresponded to on those.
So you just write.
are just, you know, this one is like quiet night.
So it's very simple.
Yeah.
Right, but that's informative.
Quiet Night, I'm gonna leave the heavy metal guitar solo out of that one.
Right?
So it's not even a thought, it's not even on the menu of choices.
And then you think, why is it quiet?
Mm-hmm.
because life has been really noisy and I just need a break?
Or is it quiet because now all of a sudden I'm alone?
Is it quiet because I left somebody?
Is it a quiet night because kids or my pets or my partner aren't here?
Is it a quiet night in a city?
Is it a quiet night in the country?
Is it a quiet night on a ship?
Like, you have all of these things that you can think about.
And then start thinking about the opposite.
if it's not a quiet night, what is it?
It's a crazy day or it's a loud day.
So then you think like, you know, well, how could I play on that?
Like, what is the story where I can sort of play on opposites?
Right?
And then usually what I would do is I would start free writing and I would write from scent my senses So I'd write sight sound taste touch smell.
How do things move and then I would go write for like five or ten minutes of that and then I'd go back and pull out interesting phrases interesting lines and See if any of those
actually are a better title than quiet night like maybe the song isn't actually about quiet night maybe it's something that that just
got inspired by.
But if you write from your senses, that gives you really good verse material because a lot of times that's a time, a place or a person, you know, that you're writing about.
So that gives you lots of information to set the scene.
And then you can figure out what the emotion is for the chorus.
Right.
That's great.
Using that sensory imagery is powerful because that's how we experience the world.
I go over this in my English classes all the time.
I just get them to think about like all the...
just sitting in this room.
What are the things you see?
What are the things you hear?
What are the things you smell?
And all that.
we break it down and it allows you to say things in an interesting way.
Like, oh, that's what it felt like to be there.
That's a much different approach than just kind of telling people what it was like.
It was sad.
was quiet.
You hear the click of a second hand on the clock or something like that that tells you it's quiet.
That might even be a sound you use in your music to help reflect that.
or like
I see how this gets the brain going and like, okay, yeah, now we got some ideas that we can throw at the wall and see what works.
Totally.
And like, as you're talking, like to me, I'm picturing like a rain soaked street with like fog, right?
Like quiet night, nobody's around.
But then start thinking of like, well, how do I turn that into an emotion then?
Like what, who are the characters?
What would the singer be talking about?
Who is the singer?
Who are they singing to?
Is the singer even in the story, right?
Maybe the singer's a narrator talking about he, she, they, we, or not we, but he, she, they, it.
Or is it first person, where it's first person direct address, where it's.
me and you, right?
Or is it first person narrative where the singer is talking about me and him instead of me and you.
It's about me and him where the listener is kind of an observer and listening to the story.
You know what I mean?
So there's all kinds of decisions that you make and it's usually a good idea to take your song and try it in in different points of view to see what feels the best too.
Hmm.
Right.
right?
Is it present tense?
Is it past tense?
Is it future tense?
You know, when is this happening?
What is the vantage point of where we're looking at the story?
And do we start the song about what happened in the past?
Or do we start the song about what's happening right now?
Or do we start the song about what we wish was happening and then go somewhere else in the rest of the song?
Hmm.
Yeah, and just having all those options before you.
Definitely helpful.
Overwhelming at times, I suppose, but like, make those decisions, like you said, commit.
see where it goes.
You can't edit anything until you have something to edit.
So if you get into that mindset of, this good enough?
Is this what I want to do too early?
The answer is always going to be no, because you don't have anything yet.
And then you're in the cycle of self-doubt and whatever.
But if you can have something that you can then work with...
Or what if you spend three hours just trying to get like line two perfect, right?
Like you've got a killer first line and you're like, I just got to really nail this line number two.
And you spend three hours on line number two.
And then later you get down to verse two and you think, my song's actually about this other thing.
Are you actually gonna go back and change that line too?
Probably not because you're like, spent three hours trying to figure out line two.
So you might throw away a better idea because you wasted time or you're just gonna have wasted all that time when you could have just written the song and said, this line two
needs work, but I'm gonna finish it.
And then I can come back to it.
Pat Patterson says, you're not gonna forget that it sucks.
So like, you just have to keep writing.
And I love what you just said of like, if you don't have something to edit, like of course it's not good enough because there's nothing there.
And I think that's the point is, how do you know until it's done?
So I think that's what's important to think about is you have a creation side of the process, and then you have like a refinement side of the process.
and you don't want to invite that critic in too soon.
That'd be like inviting a restaurant critic into the kitchen before it's done cooking, right?
Like, do you want the restaurant critic over the chef's shoulder being like, no, you shouldn't do that, don't do that.
It's like, you want them to review the meal, not the process.
That's funny.
I have my own metaphor I come back to.
It's like a kid playing Little League.
It's like your baby ideas were like a kid first day in Little League.
And if you're mad that he's not Mickey Manil or Derek Jeter, come on, that's totally unreasonable.
But we do that with our ideas all the time, where we invite that restaurant critic in before we've even written the menu.
I think too, I think a lot about this, but I think we get into the mindset of thinking that there's a right way and a wrong way to do things.
And I think we sometimes have an image in our head and we try to match what is with what we want.
And sometimes there's a disconnect.
And I think sometimes you have to try to see what's there and see what the potential is.
and serve the song instead of serving your idea of the song.
If that may, I don't know if that clicks at all, but if you can disconnect the expectation a little bit and just see what kind of develops, I think that's powerful.
I do that a lot by just running tape or recording would be the more modern way to say it.
But just let it play and then play along with it, try things out.
I might have that verse looping for 20 minutes and I'm just singing all kinds of stuff and the song is going on and on.
And it's often in like the listening back to that.
where I say, that's something that's kind of nice.
you.
You think you know what you want sometimes, and if you get too married to that, you miss something cool that happens along the way.
It's a nice thing about collaborating with people because sometimes they'll be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, go back to that, you know, do that again or something like that.
But if you don't have that way of thinking, it's easy to miss something really good because you have some idealized idea that doesn't even exist yet.
Yeah, like I relate to that a lot too.
And what I was thinking about as you were saying, like recording everything, putting it away for like a day or two and then coming back when you're in a different head space can
sometimes get you in a better place to kind of look at it objectively.
So you're not.
you're not comparing it to this perfect image that you've created, but you're going back and hearing it for what it is.
And sometimes things will stand out in a different way, and you'll be like, that's really cool.
Like, I should go down this path.
Yeah, a little time away is valuable because we are so close to our ideas and we never get to hear them for the first time.
So we don't know what those initial impacts are.
Those, like you said about listening to a song you've never heard and then stopping in and trying to guess.
Like we don't get to do that with our songs.
We know it too well.
But a little space.
something you forget a little you you're not in the same way of thinking at least and then that can be pretty valuable.
I also think we get into a mindset of like scarcity, right?
We sometimes think that we have a finite number of ideas.
So some people will make their idea like the golden egg and like that's the song and I'm going to work on this song for a year because I'm trying to, you know, make a plane fly
that probably shouldn't.
Right.
And I think people miss the opportunity to expand.
You learn more by writing more, not by writing better, because you don't write better without writing more.
You know what I mean?
Like, how do you know what's good if you don't have anything to compare it to?
And it's not good to compare it to other songwriters, and it's not good to compare it to other people you look up to because...
I mean, it's a double-edged sword, right?
Like, you want to learn from them, but you don't want to use that as the...
like, as the bar, necessarily, because you're at a different place.
You you don't know if you're, you're idle that you've been looking up to, like, is that their 5,000th song that they've written and you're like on song 10?
You know what I mean?
Like, they're, could be completely at a different experience level.
So you're probably not gonna kick out that level of stuff.
And a lot of times I think we'd be surprised at how often songs we love, the people that made them, it's not their favorite song, right?
Like sometimes they have no idea that that's the song that's gonna get them somewhere.
Like it's such a crap shoot.
Yeah, the comparison thing's tough.
You're listening to the final product, the finished product of somebody that's had lots of time to work with it, possibly with the team of the world's best at every little job they
do, and you're trying to do all of those jobs at once.
And additionally, you're not them and they're not you.
And I think therein lies the magic about why it's interesting to hear music from different people is because everybody's different.
So leaning into that and the comparison thing can really rob you of the enjoyment of who you are as an individual.
Do you run into that a lot with production?
Like I get into like mixing my own stuff and like I get into this mental game of like, why doesn't my mix sound like the songs that I like or like, you know.
mean, not just production.
mean, every single aspect of the whole entire process.
Even when I listen to other podcasts, I'm like, if I can't do that, they're better than me.
All these things, I think...
I mean, I'm not even going to limit that to music.
Probably every aspect of my life and my personality and my looks and you name it is somehow I can if I start comparing enough, I'll get insecure about it real quick.
Yeah.
I mean, it's hard game that we all play though, right?
Like we are the best at being ourselves, but we always try to be somebody we're not.
But I think for me personally, when I try to emulate someone else or if I try to copy a trend, it's always sort of a generic impersonation of it.
It's never very authentic, like the stuff that I do just on my own.
Like...
There's an authenticity when I write my own songs and when I sing my own songs and sometimes I'm like, my gosh, my songs feel like they all sound the same, which they
probably sound similar.
Like people have styles, right?
Like Taylor Swift sounds like Taylor Swift, but like I have to remind myself that.
You know the reason why people try to be those other people is because they've somehow gotten to like a commercial success But like at one point no one would have cared what
taylor swift was doing before she was really famous, right?
So I I kind of think of myself as like If for some reason my stuff ever takes off, which it probably won't because I don't do marketing and you know, but I love writing songs To
me, it's like nobody's better at being chad than than chad
And I think that's how you kind of have to look at it is like, how can I be myself and make music that moves me?
Because if it moves me, there's probably millions of other people that it moves to because I can't be the only one that has my same taste, right?
Like I don't think I'm that unique.
I think you're right.
You got to just lean into who you are and how you do things and it's tough, know, there's because so many people are so talented in so many ways but probably when you're comparing
yourself to other people too you're kind of focusing in on one aspect rather than the full picture so
you know that old expression if we all put our problems on the table and we're going to trade we probably just pick our own problems right back up.
think it applies to this a little bit where that's the gift that's like kind of our superpowers that we are individuals and that's why it's interesting that's why it's
You know, we don't have enough songs yet.
It's not like we are, because we got enough, right?
We don't need anything else, but it's still interesting because there's still new people to share what they've got and to connect with us in a way that we haven't been connected
with before.
Yeah, I mean, think of how many love songs have been written over the years, like, like billions.
But yet somebody still can come out with something that just knocks the public socks off and just like it outshines everything else.
Like, it's possible.
Hmm, someone came out and said it in their own weird way.
Right.
And they say it in a way that it's like, why didn't I think of that?
Hmm.
Right.
Or like, I've kind of almost always thought of that.
I just never had a way of saying it.
Yeah.
exactly.
I'm keeping you long time but it's because I'm really enjoying talking to you.
I've wanna yeah, it's been great.
It's been I'm really glad we did the thing last Saturday with the at home songwriting group.
The that's I'm I'm not saying the name exactly right.
It's the pro at at home songwriting pro pro sorry songwriting pro writing group.
at home songwriting pro writer group.
So the idea of the group is you can write like a pro at home.
So the name doesn't mean that it's pro writers that are in the group, but it's people that want to write at a pro level, but maybe aren't there yet, or they maybe don't want to
chase it like a pro would, like they don't want to move to Nashville.
They don't want to.
be a staff writer, they don't want to do that stuff, but they want to write pro level songs.
And what the group is is really it's a membership.
So it's a premium membership, but I teach them each week.
So we have a one hour, about hour and a half class or a workshop.
It's online.
We talk about a songwriting topic and we learn different tools, techniques.
And then each week I give them assignments.
So they do writing exercises, writing assignments,
And then there's a community where they post their work and then they comment on each other's and then I also give feedback and encouragement and really just kind of connect
with everybody and and it's been a lot of fun and I think it's been Really helpful for the people involved because I see the growth From the time when people come into it and then
we practice these things we practice these different tools So when it comes time to write
they have this toolbox that they can reach into and write the songs that they want to write.
And I'm all about helping them find what's their thing and then how do they apply the tools to do what they want to do.
So we have country, we have folk, we have some kind of progressive rock people that are in the group.
We have...
Some Christian artists that are in the group.
We have some dance artists.
Like it's kind of all over the board, but it's really about songwriting and song craft.
So it's a lot of fun.
I had a lot of fun in the last weekend and it seems like there's a lot of different perspectives and angles coming at it, different levels and all in all though the thing
that was so nice was just this enthusiasm, this excitement and that's, you know, I left the meeting myself feeling inspired and I wanted to make music and that alone is just a
really huge gift.
mean, for me, like anything inspires me, it's...
precious and valuable, so I soak it up.
And seems like you got a really cool thing going there.
You know, as a teacher, and you might find this too, that, you know, sometimes it's not about what we're teaching, but it's about how you connect with the other people.
And I think I can't understate what the community does when you know that you have a group of people that are sort of in your corner and like your cheerleader and
they're supporting the songs that you're uploading.
We're getting together on a weekly basis to nerd out on this type of stuff, right?
Like, I mean, we go an hour, hour and a half, but we could totally go three or four hours if we just, you know, usually we all have stuff to do, but we could go forever because
we're connected with our people.
And I think that's what's really fun about it.
So if people are looking for that kind of online connection, I think this, my group might be one to check out.
Yeah, I could agree with that.
It was a lot of fun.
Thanks for having me on that.
That was great.
Yeah, I'd love to.
Yeah, cool.
Well, having that assignment, that's...
Sometimes you just need a little direction.
You know, sometimes the infinite options problem is real, where you can do anything.
Every one of us can make any type of song that we want.
So a little direction, it's always helpful.
Yeah, and I think, you know, just doing little exercises sometimes is enough to build your skill over time.
I think sometimes we get in our head that we have to write a complete song all the time.
And that's not always true.
So just practicing part of the process can help you improve so much.
Absolutely.
So we've also got the YouTube channel, which is great, At Home Songwriting with Chad Schenck, and the web address for you, athomesongwriting.thinkific.com.
So you can go to, yeah, I have athomesongwritingcourses.com.
So at home songwriting courses.
And then to get to the YouTube channel, you can go to athomesongwriting.com.
So either will find me.
Cool, I'll put all these links inside the show notes for this episode so people can find it.
yeah, if you've enjoyed what Chad's been talking about, I certainly have, check him out.
Yeah, I just realized how long we've been talking.
That's crazy.
It doesn't feel that long.
Yeah.
look at the clock or when my dog, Audra, starts reminding me it's dinner time.
that means we're having a good time here.
So.
yeah, you have a studio dog.
I have a studio dog.
He's not in here with me right now, but yeah, usually.
Yeah, he's his name's Joey, and he's usually one of the reasons why I take breaks from doing this stuff, because usually he has to go out before I want to stop.
So.
Yeah.
that about my dogs because they'll, you know, sometimes you're getting diminishing returns, you're sitting here too long doing stuff, you just need some fresh air and then
things come back into place.
So it's a nice kind of built-in way to take a break.
Yep.
Awesome.
Well, thanks so much for having me.
This has been fun.
you.
Thanks everyone for listening.
Cool man, we did it.
Awesome.
I can't believe we went two hours.
Yeah, I hope that's okay.
It slipped by real fast for me.