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Welcome to the show, Chad.

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Good to see you again.

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Hey, good to see you as well.

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It's a long time no see.

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I know it's just been a few days.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Well, to give people context, I was on your at-home songwriting group on Saturday talking
with your group of songwriters and I had an awesome time.

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It's a really cool community you've put together.

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Yeah, the I think the people enjoyed it.

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I think you inspired them.

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I know that some are gonna go buy the book I know I bought your book And it was fun to
hear your story and I'm excited to talk more to you today

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Yeah, it's nice to have people to connect with on this, you know, that I think we
mentioned it even in the meeting, but like songwriting and music making has become very

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solitary when we're at computers and we're just doing it all on our own.

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So to have other people to talk about it with and get into the nitty gritty and discuss
these like little minor details that probably most people that aren't writing music never

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even contemplate and

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that group seemed enthusiastic, excited, and eager to make music and learn.

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I love that.

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Good energy.

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no, I think one of the things that I've always been impressed by with music is its ability
to bring people together.

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Obviously, people understand that people like certain artists and you can find different
fan groups and fan bases of the artists.

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So you meet people that way.

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But I think one of the things that people don't realize is musicians and songwriters.

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We kind of find our people through it as well.

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And people who are not in this

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circle, like, have no idea what we're talking about, right?

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Like their eyes glaze over and they're just like, I don't know what compression is.

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I don't care about what's a dog.

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Like, I just listen to music and that's it.

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So I think it's fun when you get into your people and then you can sort of like nerd out
and go deep onto the stuff that interests us.

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But the general public is like, what are you talking about?

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Yeah, it's a big reason I started doing the podcast.

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People in my life are supportive and...

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will listen to me to a certain degree, but there's only so far you can go.

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And that even goes for other musician friends too that might just be in a different kind
of lane.

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You know, they might not be writing songs or working on a DAW.

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They might just be playing guitar or piano and they might be in a totally different
universe within music.

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So to have people that you can get into this stuff is important and has helped me, I
think, just like deal with the ups and downs of it myself.

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Yeah, and I think, you know, I grew up in the 80s and, you know, when I first started
making music, the only way I could really learn about this stuff was either reading like

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the backs of albums or cassettes.

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you know, what does mixing mean and what does the songwriter do and like who's the
producer?

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And then I'd go buy these magazines, you know, you'd have like Mix magazine, Keyboard
magazine.

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And I sort of learned that there was a world like this out there, but...

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Back then we didn't have the internet.

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So it wasn't like the information was at our fingertips like it is now.

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I think a lot of people would have to have been an apprentice with producers or other
songwriters or some kind of connection, know, and usually in a music city in order to sort

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of learn the things that we all have at our fingertips now.

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Like there's so many people out there that are teaching and doing these things that I
think it's just

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an awesome time for people to connect in this sort of niche, I guess, like it's a niche, I
wanna say hobby, but it's more than a hobby for some people, know, it's more of an

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industry, so to speak.

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Hmm.

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Yeah, it's a good point because I remember the same thing looking at the liner notes and
they're like, what is that?

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Like, what does that even mean?

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You know, I understood who played guitar, who played drums, but beyond that, like
producer, like mastering engineer, what is all this stuff?

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And it did almost feel like the secret society of people, like, and how would you even get
into it?

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I wouldn't have had any idea until really, I guess the internet came along and started
opening

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those doors for us all.

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Well, you know, I think it has changed the way people in general interact with songwriters
and artists.

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You know, I think back in the day when we didn't have so much access to behind the scenes.

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I think that's why some of these artists seem so mysterious and they seem so quote unquote
magical.

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You know, when you think of like a Bob Dylan or like a Joni Mitchell or like a Carole
King, right?

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Like nobody got to see their process.

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So it seemed like they just plopped out these amazing legendary songs that connect with a
lot of people.

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And we've sort of put them on such a pedestal where it almost seems not human, right?

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Like they're somehow like blessed with this ability.

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And I think what would it have been like?

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if they all had Instagram, you know, if they had Instagram accounts and like we all had
the same recording gear and like all these things, like I think times have changed where

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some of the mystery is taken out of it.

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I find myself sometimes wondering, like, wouldn't it be cool if there was this place where
people could put out music and never have to like make a video or like show themselves?

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Right.

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Like kind of for me, when I was a

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there's times where you'd get an album and it was like you'd stare at the cover while
you'd listen to it and it almost became its own world, it became its own thing and I don't

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know if that happens now because when people go buy music they see the artist online, you
know, they see what the artist eats for breakfast, they see when they're at a hotel, they

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see when they're rehearsing for tour, they see them in the studio, like...

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I just think it's so interesting to think about how our relationship with all of this has
changed with technology.

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I pros and cons, right?

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Like I enjoy being able to have that access, but I also wonder what it takes away from it
too.

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Yeah, I have a few memories of bands like this where they didn't really have their
pictures in the albums and you didn't know who they were and you didn't get a lot of that

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so it was kind of mysterious and you really just had the music to go on and I'm probably
going back to like late 90s early 2000s where people's websites weren't really much and I

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was at a

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One concert in particular, I remember with my friend and we were like waiting for the band
to come out and there were guys bringing guitars and equipment out and we're like, I

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wonder if that's them.

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We're kind of like, they look like just regular guys.

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I don't know.

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Like it's weird.

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And then when the band came out, we were like, okay, that's them.

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Or even some artists that just seemed, you know, like superhuman, superheroes even to us
as young musicians, they would get online and they would...

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just so regular that it did kind of take a little bit of the wind out of the sail.

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I just kind of like, oh, like he eats oatmeal too.

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Like he's just a regular guy.

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So it's had kind of both effect on me where it is really interesting to see the process
and learn how people do stuff.

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But then it, like you said, it demystifies it and there is a magic to it.

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And I could only imagine, like you said, Bob Dylan on Instagram, if we had all these
videos of him.

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working out ideas and doing covers and foolish stuff as a youth that it could probably
take a lot of that because he's someone that really leaned into that and created the

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mystery around himself.

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Totally.

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Like I'm a big Prince fan, so like growing up, Prince was...

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just one of my influences, I would say idols.

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I loved how prolific he was, how creative he was, and Prince created his own world, you
know what I mean?

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And he created his own mystique.

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like, being in Minneapolis, I had the chance to go out to Paisley Park when he was still
alive and get to see him do his late night performances, and he would hang out, and you'd

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be in the same little room with him while he's jamming.

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just with a like a little band that he has and then he'd be walking around while
everybody's dancing and like you take this larger than life sort of concept and all of a

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sudden it's just a person right like it's just another dude kind of a goofy little dude
but like still just a person and I think that's inspiring just to know that they kind of

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They're in the same world we are, right?

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Like all of the same things that they probably go through, we go through, and they just
happen to be creative like we are.

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Yeah, and he's somebody, as I've learned more about him a little behind the scenes,
becomes more and more impressive.

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Mm-hmm.

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I was watching some documentary where they were taking you inside the vault, they called
it, of like all of his recordings and he just has thousands and thousands of tapes of

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songs that never got released that were made like almost every day he'd make something new
and play everything on it.

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That was like, man, like Prince is like kind of superhuman even as you get to see his
human side.

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Definitely not common, right?

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Like he definitely had a very strong work ethic and he just created, created, created and
he did.

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He recorded everything.

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So even when we were at these shows where it seemed like he was just jamming, he was
always recording.

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So he always captured stuff.

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So they have years and years of material that may or may not ever be released, which I
think is interesting.

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And when he passed,

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it sort of made me start to think about what legacy am I leaving, right?

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Like, am I writing as much as I should be or as much as I want to?

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And do I let everyday stuff get in the way of me actually creating, right?

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Like, is that other stuff I'm doing as important to my legacy as if I would create music?

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Does that make any sense?

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I think so.

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think maybe to me it does in making music.

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There are sometimes things you can find yourself doing that might earn you some money, but
you don't really feel passionate about.

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And I consider myself lucky to have some of those opportunities, but things like doing
product reviews, I've done in the past, but never really enjoyed so much.

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And then kind of thinking about the limited time I have, like do I wanna have another?

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review about something that I'm, you know, may or may not be that excited about, but it's
just things, you know, it's not the creation, it's not the art, or the expression, if you

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can call it art, if you want to be serious about it.

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But yeah, the body of work, you know, that you're building, ultimately is the most
important thing to me.

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for sure.

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I think too, like when I think back as a kid, I used to think that when you listen to the
radio, the bands were actually at the radio station.

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like performing like I didn't really get the concept of like the DJs just playing
recordings like I and this was when I was quite young but you know as I'd be in the car

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with my mom but I always think like that's really cool like this band is actually at the
radio station so like the radio station sort of became this like magical place where it's

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like wow you know

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But as a kid, I always wanted to learn how to make music like that.

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Like there was something that drew me to like popular music and something that drew me to
how those songs are made.

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And I remember very clearly, it was the Grammys in 1987 and Janet Jackson performed with
Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis.

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And I don't know if you've ever seen this performance, but.

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Janet calls out these commands and she'll say, Jimmy Jam, and then he'll do a keyboard
solo and then she'll be like, Terry, and then he does a bass.

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And I was like, first off, who are these dudes behind the artist?

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Because in my head I was like, that's what I wanna do.

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And at some point I started getting into electronic keyboards and like.

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I sort of got this bug of like, wanna make music like I hear on the radio.

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So my mom was like, well, maybe you should take piano lessons.

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And I went to like one lesson and they didn't wanna teach me what was on the radio.

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So I was like, I don't wanna do that.

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So I ended up teaching myself just from learning by ear and I'd buy sheet music and I'd
buy the magazines.

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I'd read the back covers.

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Like I would just eat up any information that I could.

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And that's really where I got bit by the songwriting and the music production bug was
Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis.

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And then I was a big fan of Prince and Debbie Gibson back in the day.

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Huge fan of Debbie Gibson when I was in like fifth grade.

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think she's a Long Islander, like me.

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is, Merrick New York, yeah, yeah.

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But what I liked about her was she started in her garage.

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She started with multi-track recorders.

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I'm sure back then it was tape, you know what I mean?

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And I was like, if those people are doing it, why can't I do it?

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And that was really where my bug started.

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Yeah, that's cool.

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Yeah, I think like a lot of the do-it-yourself punk rock for me was inspiring.

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Like, and a lot of like the 90s alternative, because they didn't sound like they were
especially talented musicians, even though looking back, they certainly were.

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But it felt within reach a little more.

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then I didn't ever think I was going to become Prince, but I felt like maybe I could play
guitar like Kurt Cobain.

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So, and then of course, as you learn it, you realize it is actually very complex on
different levels.

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But yeah, that kind of stuff is, that's fun where you get music that makes you feel like,
hey, I could do this too.

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Maybe I can be part of this and not just observing it, but participating as well.

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I think even to this day, when I listen to Prince's music, like it does something to me
that kicks that spark in the back of my mind, whereas like I need to create.

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Like there's something about it.

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And sometimes there's music that does that by other people, like.

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The new Lady Gaga album, her Mayhem album that just came out, I think is awesome.

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Like it's totally kind of in the vein of like the stuff that I like and even some of my
own style.

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But like when I listen to that album, it makes me want to go write a song.

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It makes me want to go record.

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It makes me want to like make something.

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And not every artist does that for me.

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That's kind of my favorite type of music is the kind that inspires me.

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I often listen to music these days almost in this way like I'm trying to feed off of it.

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What can I take from it that'll make me want to make music?

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And anything that does that for me, I find exciting.

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Do you think part of that is like knowing how the sausage is made a little bit?

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Like, and then there's some things that are just kind of average and then all of a sudden
something is like, holy cow, like everything lined up on that one and like, how do I do

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that?

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Do you think there's some of that?

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yeah, I'm sure.

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mean, sometimes you just hear sounds, that was just interesting.

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Or it could even be a songwriting technique or an arrangement type of thing, or just an
overall impression it gives you.

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It comes from all different angles.

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It could be lyrics.

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But yeah, something that just makes you want to create too.

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It might be because you kind of understand how it's made or you don't and you're like,
well, how did they do that?

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Let's see if I can figure out my way of doing that.

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And a lot of times that's not going to be spot on.

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It might be some kind of my own misinterpretations that kind of makes it my own thing, but
I'm, I'm still kind of aiming at that, whether I hit the target or not.

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Yeah, well, I think that's art, right?

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Like no art is is really 100 % original.

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Like it's always influenced by something that came before it.

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00:17:44,985 --> 00:17:54,833
Even like Bob Dylan, you know, I think some people being so in the songwriting world, I
think Dylan is like always looked at as like he is the songwriter, right?

200
00:17:54,934 --> 00:17:59,655
And to be honest, I'm not a huge Dylan fan, but I appreciate what he did.

201
00:17:59,655 --> 00:18:00,735
But

202
00:18:00,847 --> 00:18:02,768
He was inspired by other stuff too.

203
00:18:02,768 --> 00:18:05,701
Like he just didn't come out of a vacuum.

204
00:18:05,701 --> 00:18:10,434
Like he was in literature, he was very educated.

205
00:18:10,887 --> 00:18:19,560
He was very much in the folk scene, which was very much inspired by different spirituals
and sort of music of the time.

206
00:18:19,641 --> 00:18:22,563
But he took it and made it his own thing.

207
00:18:22,563 --> 00:18:28,187
So I think that's part of what we do as songwriters and artists is

208
00:18:28,667 --> 00:18:36,743
we're sort of like this hybrid of everything that we like and Not only what we like but
what our ability is right?

209
00:18:36,743 --> 00:18:49,102
Cuz I mean, let's be honest like It we all are sort of limited by either the voice we have
however, we play our instruments like You know, no matter how hard I try.

210
00:18:49,102 --> 00:18:50,834
I'm not gonna be Celine Dion, right?

211
00:18:50,834 --> 00:18:55,287
So I'm not gonna be able to really sing those types of songs, but

212
00:18:55,397 --> 00:19:06,850
I can do what I can do, but if I try to be Celine Dion, I might find something in the
middle of Chad and Celine that becomes really cool, you know?

213
00:19:07,622 --> 00:19:19,496
Yeah, and that question of like, what does it mean to be like Celine Dion, you're gonna,
even if we both go on that same mission, you might focus in on one aspect of what she does

214
00:19:19,496 --> 00:19:21,366
and I might focus on another.

215
00:19:21,366 --> 00:19:25,787
And that interpretation is even individualist.

216
00:19:25,787 --> 00:19:29,578
And I think that's one of the coolest things.

217
00:19:29,578 --> 00:19:36,180
And I guess as I get older too, I worry less and less about copying people or...

218
00:19:36,414 --> 00:19:48,756
stealing their ideas or any of that because like you said for once everything is
derivative on some level but I know that I'm gonna mix and mash it with so many other

219
00:19:48,756 --> 00:20:00,778
things whether I like it or not that it will most likely come out sounding different and
have my own spin on it whatever that means so it's kind of freeing

220
00:20:01,068 --> 00:20:12,404
it is freeing and I think too with with the creative process, you would almost drive
yourself crazy worrying so much about is this 100 % never been done before?

221
00:20:12,404 --> 00:20:14,916
Like, hopefully this doesn't sound like anything else.

222
00:20:14,916 --> 00:20:22,020
And I tell people sounding like and copying is two different things, right?

223
00:20:22,020 --> 00:20:27,613
You can have a song that sort of sounds like another song, but it's completely not the
other song, right?

224
00:20:27,613 --> 00:20:28,403
Like

225
00:20:29,341 --> 00:20:36,607
To me, that's totally within the, you know, playing the rules, rules of the game, right?

226
00:20:36,607 --> 00:20:44,823
Like even on Gaga's new album, there's a song called Killa that I think the verse melody
sounds just like Prince's sign of the times.

227
00:20:44,964 --> 00:20:54,391
And I saw online that even some other people are saying that too, but it's really just one
part in this whole work that just reminds me of that.

228
00:20:54,567 --> 00:21:01,072
But if somebody didn't know Prince or didn't know Sign of the Times, they wouldn't pick up
on that, right?

229
00:21:01,072 --> 00:21:07,516
I'm just at an age where I've kind of heard so much stuff that I'm constantly like, that
sounds like that song and that sounds like that song.

230
00:21:07,837 --> 00:21:10,338
But I don't worry about it as I'm writing.

231
00:21:10,604 --> 00:21:11,476
Hmm.

232
00:21:11,962 --> 00:21:13,268
Yes, well...

233
00:21:13,268 --> 00:21:19,741
I've found when I'm in that creative process and I start worrying about this stuff, that's
when it all falls apart.

234
00:21:19,741 --> 00:21:21,002
I lose it.

235
00:21:21,002 --> 00:21:22,242
I get too analytical.

236
00:21:22,242 --> 00:21:26,444
Now I'm editing before I've even really created anything to edit.

237
00:21:26,544 --> 00:21:30,766
And that's where I hit my obstacles and roadblocks.

238
00:21:30,766 --> 00:21:43,242
I'm trying to be clever with my chords or I'm trying to do something interesting with the
arrangements just to be interesting, not because it necessarily fits the song.

239
00:21:43,242 --> 00:21:48,220
I just want to be like, like intellectual or something about it.

240
00:21:48,262 --> 00:21:50,451
And now I'm out of it.

241
00:21:50,451 --> 00:21:52,758
like you're trying to impress Rick Beato.

242
00:21:53,859 --> 00:22:02,890
I'm trying to do something that people would be like, wow, instead of trying to just make
stuff.

243
00:22:04,305 --> 00:22:17,145
So it is a hard balance and kind of how I have thought about it over the years of dealing
with it is I've come to the conclusion that emotion is everything.

244
00:22:17,145 --> 00:22:30,064
So every decision that I make in my writing process, in my recording process, like am I
doing this because it supports the emotion that I'm trying to communicate, right?

245
00:22:30,064 --> 00:22:30,835
Like.

246
00:22:30,927 --> 00:22:36,131
Or am I just doing this because I want to be cool or am I doing it to impress somebody?

247
00:22:36,131 --> 00:22:45,638
And I think as writers, we it's really easy to get into this writing to impress mode where
we sort of forget that our listeners don't care.

248
00:22:45,638 --> 00:22:49,580
The only thing our listeners care about is do I feel something?

249
00:22:49,741 --> 00:22:56,346
And is there is there a very concentrated emotion that the song communicates?

250
00:22:56,346 --> 00:22:56,776
Right.

251
00:22:56,776 --> 00:22:57,566
So.

252
00:22:58,095 --> 00:23:09,384
It takes some the pressure off for me thinking about like, okay, if I want to do this, how
does that support the underlying emotion that my song is about?

253
00:23:09,384 --> 00:23:20,233
everything, lyrics, melody, harmony, the chords, even the groove, everything for me is
decided by what emotion does it communicate?

254
00:23:20,233 --> 00:23:22,834
And sometimes it's very simple.

255
00:23:23,368 --> 00:23:28,938
Because that's what the emotion calls for right so that's helped me kind of

256
00:23:29,009 --> 00:23:39,568
Get past that and I also heard a quote by somebody that says you don't have to redesign or
invent a genre and I was like that takes some take some pressure off too because sometimes

257
00:23:39,568 --> 00:23:46,173
Doesn't it feel you're like you're competing against like an entire universe of music and
you're like, how do I stand out?

258
00:23:46,273 --> 00:23:48,585
And it's really not about reinventing the wheel.

259
00:23:48,585 --> 00:23:53,679
It's about making the listener feel something and I think a lot of people forget that

260
00:23:54,114 --> 00:23:54,974
Hmm.

261
00:23:55,535 --> 00:23:59,976
Yeah, that was a real big guiding light and a couple of things I've worked on recently.

262
00:23:59,976 --> 00:24:04,018
The emotional impact was what I was calling it.

263
00:24:04,018 --> 00:24:06,309
Like that's the king, emotional impact.

264
00:24:06,309 --> 00:24:11,481
So if that meant that we auto-tuned something, we did that.

265
00:24:11,481 --> 00:24:17,864
If that meant we did whatever, you know, whatever decision was solely based on emotional
impact.

266
00:24:17,864 --> 00:24:20,665
So it helped a lot.

267
00:24:21,285 --> 00:24:23,682
But I think

268
00:24:23,682 --> 00:24:29,687
maybe what you're saying is slightly different in that you've identified an emotion that
you're chasing.

269
00:24:30,047 --> 00:24:38,194
And I was wondering when you were saying all that, how early in the process do you
identify that?

270
00:24:38,294 --> 00:24:43,078
Is that something like you go into it with or do you sort of discover it?

271
00:24:44,732 --> 00:24:45,732
Depends on the song.

272
00:24:45,732 --> 00:24:59,774
I would say it's both really I think the sooner you can decide that the easier everything
else becomes right so the emotion and your main point or the main message or the hook of

273
00:24:59,774 --> 00:25:12,594
the song becomes sort of that North Star so the sooner you can Determine what that hook is
or what the emotion is then you can sort of drive towards that with everything else

274
00:25:12,594 --> 00:25:13,655
because

275
00:25:14,491 --> 00:25:18,113
I've seen a lot of writers where they write a song and you'll be like, well, what is
about?

276
00:25:18,113 --> 00:25:19,144
And they'll be like, well, I don't know.

277
00:25:19,144 --> 00:25:20,935
It's about like five different things.

278
00:25:20,935 --> 00:25:23,417
And I'm like, well, what is the title?

279
00:25:23,417 --> 00:25:27,098
You know, usually a title somehow is related to the hook.

280
00:25:27,299 --> 00:25:29,961
And they'll be like, well, I don't have a title yet.

281
00:25:29,961 --> 00:25:35,604
And usually for me, that's a sign that the song probably isn't very succinct.

282
00:25:35,604 --> 00:25:39,416
Like, how do we know what it's about if the writer doesn't know what it's about?

283
00:25:39,416 --> 00:25:39,747
Right.

284
00:25:39,747 --> 00:25:40,547
Like.

285
00:25:40,763 --> 00:25:52,333
And I understand some songs titles have different jobs to do, but at the same time, if you
can't really explain it in like one or two sentences, you may be including too much,

286
00:25:52,354 --> 00:25:52,678
right?

287
00:25:52,678 --> 00:25:58,078
It may be, you may be going too wide instead of going deep on the emotion.

288
00:25:58,804 --> 00:26:05,499
Okay, so you're saying we need to go deep, narrow and deep, rather than wide and shallow.

289
00:26:06,385 --> 00:26:18,823
Right, right, because the more you can pull the listener into one situation, one emotion,
the more they can have that experience with you.

290
00:26:19,264 --> 00:26:28,071
And you have to be, you know, a lot of times people think, well, I want my music to touch
as many people as possible, so I'm gonna write very vague, right?

291
00:26:28,071 --> 00:26:34,154
Like I'm gonna write stuff that, you know, people can interpret it the way that they want
to.

292
00:26:34,461 --> 00:26:42,597
But what that actually does is it means that if people don't know what you're talking
about, they have no way to know if they relate to it or not.

293
00:26:42,778 --> 00:26:43,638
So.

294
00:26:43,931 --> 00:26:47,314
A lot of times those songs are not lyrically driven.

295
00:26:47,314 --> 00:26:48,906
Those songs are groove driven.

296
00:26:48,906 --> 00:26:51,438
They're musically driven, like melody.

297
00:26:52,139 --> 00:26:58,115
Because what really connects to the listeners is specificity and being specific.

298
00:26:58,115 --> 00:27:04,211
So the more specific you can be, the more universal your song is, right?

299
00:27:04,211 --> 00:27:08,134
Because then the listener puts themselves into the picture.

300
00:27:08,507 --> 00:27:13,741
and then they can subconsciously decide, do I relate to this or not?

301
00:27:13,743 --> 00:27:15,125
If that makes sense.

302
00:27:16,164 --> 00:27:21,130
I think about that a lot, actually, the specificity, because I think there's an irony
there.

303
00:27:21,130 --> 00:27:26,417
Like, if I'm getting this specific, it's my situation and the details I went through.

304
00:27:26,417 --> 00:27:28,119
How could other people ever relate?

305
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,680
Because it's so...

306
00:27:31,468 --> 00:27:39,182
You you weren't walking across that bridge with a balloon in your hand when, you know,
whatever happened.

307
00:27:39,182 --> 00:27:44,284
But somehow that does really make us connect.

308
00:27:44,284 --> 00:27:52,728
And the song I always come back to, and it's probably because I teach it in my high school
classes, is Highway Patrolman by Bruce Springsteen.

309
00:27:52,848 --> 00:27:56,770
And he's talking about his brother Frankie.

310
00:27:56,770 --> 00:28:00,372
He's a highway patrolman and his brother Frankie is no good.

311
00:28:00,372 --> 00:28:01,612
And he's getting into trouble.

312
00:28:01,612 --> 00:28:10,407
and it's all about brotherly love and he's got to make this moral, ethical decision about
whether he's loyal to his job or loyal to his brother because ultimately his brother gets

313
00:28:10,407 --> 00:28:13,252
in trouble and he has to arrest him.

314
00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:16,681
that is so specific.

315
00:28:16,681 --> 00:28:20,583
I'm not a police officer, though I did have parents that were police officers.

316
00:28:22,304 --> 00:28:25,386
Still, there's so much about it that...

317
00:28:25,418 --> 00:28:26,860
is hard to connect to.

318
00:28:26,860 --> 00:28:37,093
But even like high school kids, see them like kind of like, yeah, like sometimes in life,
like you have these difficult decisions and two things you love that you have to decide

319
00:28:37,093 --> 00:28:38,213
between.

320
00:28:38,775 --> 00:28:44,421
That's the universal feeling, but it really comes out in this very specific story.

321
00:28:45,299 --> 00:28:53,190
So I think that's the key, Like, what is Springsteen really writing about, you know, a
highway patrolman?

322
00:28:53,311 --> 00:28:57,276
No, he's actually writing about moral dilemmas, right?

323
00:28:57,276 --> 00:28:59,118
So when you're thinking about...

324
00:28:59,441 --> 00:29:13,418
Writing if you have the the moral of the story or you have sort of the emotion or what the
song is about You can then use the the specific details to communicate that underlying

325
00:29:13,418 --> 00:29:15,808
emotion So I think that's it.

326
00:29:15,808 --> 00:29:25,823
That's a good example Think about songs by like John Mayer right like John Mayer writes
very specific Lyrics, right?

327
00:29:25,823 --> 00:29:28,205
Like in his song my stupid mouth.

328
00:29:28,205 --> 00:29:29,665
He says like

329
00:29:30,926 --> 00:29:35,380
You know, we looked out the window basically they're sitting at a cafe looking out the
window.

330
00:29:35,380 --> 00:29:40,814
She's playing with napkins He's playing he's like moving the salt and pepper shakers
around

331
00:29:41,007 --> 00:29:44,568
And like, it's just awkward because he said something stupid, right?

332
00:29:44,588 --> 00:29:49,070
And the whole song is about his stupid mouth and how he always says dumb things.

333
00:29:49,070 --> 00:29:56,312
But he paints such a visible and visual picture that it pulls us in as listeners.

334
00:29:56,312 --> 00:30:01,934
And even though it's not our story, we can relate to it because we can sort of see it in
our mind.

335
00:30:02,654 --> 00:30:04,515
There's a really good song.

336
00:30:04,860 --> 00:30:06,944
by Josh, I think it's by Josh Phillips.

337
00:30:06,944 --> 00:30:08,907
He wrote it by Cody Johnson.

338
00:30:08,907 --> 00:30:11,471
It's a country song called Dirt Cheap.

339
00:30:11,533 --> 00:30:12,413
And

340
00:30:13,211 --> 00:30:20,214
It's a rare country song that's written by one writer that actually was pretty successful,
but it's called Dirt Cheap.

341
00:30:20,214 --> 00:30:28,317
And when you listen to it, it's almost like watching a little movie in your head and it's
about a farmer.

342
00:30:28,317 --> 00:30:36,961
And I'm like the farthest thing from a farmer, but that song makes me tear up almost every
time because I feel the emotion through the pictures.

343
00:30:37,041 --> 00:30:42,367
And I think that's what a lot of songwriters forget is that

344
00:30:42,375 --> 00:30:51,509
being specific in your lyric doesn't like hurt the mystique of the song, right?

345
00:30:51,509 --> 00:30:56,821
It actually helps because your lyric isn't where the emotion or the vibe lives.

346
00:30:56,821 --> 00:30:58,861
The vibe lives in the music.

347
00:30:58,922 --> 00:31:03,133
So your lyric will never outright the music.

348
00:31:03,133 --> 00:31:05,885
So you use the music to set the mood.

349
00:31:05,885 --> 00:31:10,626
So I always say the music talks to your heart and then the lyric talks to your logic.

350
00:31:10,626 --> 00:31:12,047
talks to your head.

351
00:31:12,420 --> 00:31:20,122
So you have to have both of those things kind of working together, but that's how I kind
of think about it.

352
00:31:20,620 --> 00:31:21,450
Hmm.

353
00:31:21,631 --> 00:31:26,416
Yeah, that's a cool way to think about it because yeah, it does a lot of the talking.

354
00:31:27,816 --> 00:31:28,228
Right?

355
00:31:28,228 --> 00:31:38,643
do, we do exercises and you're also a Berkeley online instructor as well we should
probably mention but in my sampling class there's one week where we combine samples from

356
00:31:38,643 --> 00:31:41,834
various sources and I always pull up the Mrs.

357
00:31:41,834 --> 00:31:54,870
Doubtfire trailer from that movie from the 90s at Robin Williams comedy, family movie but
someone reset it as a horror film so they took certain lines out of context.

358
00:31:55,022 --> 00:31:57,003
They're my goddamn kids too.

359
00:31:57,003 --> 00:32:09,126
know, and like put in this like really heavy like horror film, you know, big long drones
and stuff and it changes everything.

360
00:32:09,367 --> 00:32:19,310
But it's a really powerful example of how the music that you put to something, same exact
material, but now it's a different film, different feeling.

361
00:32:20,211 --> 00:32:23,771
I kind of think of it as fonts, right?

362
00:32:24,171 --> 00:32:32,311
Like picture a font written in like a really pretty calligraphy script and it says like,
love you, right?

363
00:32:32,311 --> 00:32:35,371
Like it's very pretty, you're like, aw.

364
00:32:35,371 --> 00:32:41,991
But now imagine it like letters that look like dripping blood and like Halloween letters
that says I love you.

365
00:32:41,991 --> 00:32:43,771
And it's like, I love you.

366
00:32:43,771 --> 00:32:45,171
You know what I mean?

367
00:32:45,611 --> 00:32:49,114
same words, but a completely different meaning.

368
00:32:49,114 --> 00:32:59,984
And I think that's how lyric and music work together is just because you're saying
something doesn't mean that that's what you're saying necessarily.

369
00:32:59,984 --> 00:33:04,168
So you have to decide what is the emotion that I'm communicating.

370
00:33:04,168 --> 00:33:10,993
And then you make decisions based on, you know, do I use balanced or

371
00:33:12,371 --> 00:33:14,162
kind of like stable rhyme schemes?

372
00:33:14,162 --> 00:33:16,024
Do I use different rhyme types?

373
00:33:16,024 --> 00:33:21,037
Do I use different lengths of lines to make things seem unstable?

374
00:33:21,037 --> 00:33:22,838
Do I use stable chords?

375
00:33:22,838 --> 00:33:24,700
Do I use unstable chords?

376
00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:26,481
What is the rhythm doing?

377
00:33:26,481 --> 00:33:34,867
Like there's all these decisions that you can put into the work that helps you deliver the
message.

378
00:33:34,867 --> 00:33:37,368
Because what you're saying is only part of it.

379
00:33:37,368 --> 00:33:40,830
How you say it is super important as well.

380
00:33:42,327 --> 00:33:45,590
Yeah, I love that concept of stability.

381
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:48,673
I'm wondering if you mind going into that a little bit.

382
00:33:48,673 --> 00:33:56,901
So how would one go about stable chords versus unstable or even lyrically rhyme scheme you
mentioned?

383
00:33:56,901 --> 00:34:06,389
A few different ways we can look at stability and instability and why we would want one
where, one place, one in another.

384
00:34:06,973 --> 00:34:12,225
So stability is created by balance, right?

385
00:34:12,225 --> 00:34:17,387
So things that resolve, things that come to a resolution.

386
00:34:18,267 --> 00:34:27,851
Within a rhyme scheme, like let's say you have, Mary had a little lamb, fleece was white
as snow, everywhere that Mary went, the lamb was sure to go, right?

387
00:34:28,325 --> 00:34:34,167
You have two lines that set up a pattern and then the next two lines match the pattern.

388
00:34:34,167 --> 00:34:35,758
So that's stable.

389
00:34:35,838 --> 00:34:43,351
But what if I said, Mary had a little lamb fleece was white as snow everywhere that Mary
went, the lamb was sure to fly.

390
00:34:43,351 --> 00:34:47,643
Now all of a sudden there's tension, right?

391
00:34:47,643 --> 00:34:55,826
Because we were expecting another O rhyme, but we got fly instead.

392
00:34:55,866 --> 00:34:57,847
So that's unstable.

393
00:34:58,373 --> 00:35:03,065
Now, what if we shorten that last line?

394
00:35:03,065 --> 00:35:08,928
Mary had a little lamb, fleece was white as snow, everywhere that Mary went, there he was.

395
00:35:10,169 --> 00:35:16,272
So now that's less stable than the section before, right?

396
00:35:17,353 --> 00:35:19,853
rhythm and rhyme, correct.

397
00:35:20,074 --> 00:35:22,715
So when you're writing...

398
00:35:23,077 --> 00:35:31,530
you have to think is my topic, and this is totally Pat Patterson level stuff, and I
learned this at Berkeley, and this is what I teach at Berkeley.

399
00:35:32,291 --> 00:35:40,534
But you think about your topic, and you say is my emotion stable or unstable?

400
00:35:40,614 --> 00:35:48,497
And then you apply the structure to help relate to that, right?

401
00:35:48,818 --> 00:35:52,219
And you can even do it with different rhyme types, like,

402
00:35:52,731 --> 00:35:58,675
Like let's say snow and go, but what if we had snow and froze?

403
00:35:59,256 --> 00:35:59,596
Right?

404
00:35:59,596 --> 00:36:04,199
That's a less stable rhyme because we're adding that Z sound.

405
00:36:04,580 --> 00:36:11,524
What if we had, like snow and home?

406
00:36:12,325 --> 00:36:12,755
Right?

407
00:36:12,755 --> 00:36:15,767
So like there's, there's less stability there.

408
00:36:16,048 --> 00:36:20,451
What if we had home and

409
00:36:21,095 --> 00:36:22,676
Home and him.

410
00:36:24,077 --> 00:36:25,997
You know, or like Bob Dylan.

411
00:36:25,997 --> 00:36:29,819
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.

412
00:36:30,019 --> 00:36:31,640
That's a consonant rhyme.

413
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:36,462
So you have a different vowel, but you have the same consonant on the end.

414
00:36:36,682 --> 00:36:39,763
And that's a less stable rhyme than a perfect rhyme.

415
00:36:39,835 --> 00:36:43,058
So a perfect rhyme has the words start differently.

416
00:36:43,058 --> 00:36:47,791
They have the same vowel and then they have the same thing happening after the vowel.

417
00:36:47,791 --> 00:36:49,923
So it's a full resolution.

418
00:36:50,064 --> 00:37:01,713
So that's why sometimes songs, even though you understand them logically, you don't
connect with them emotionally because there's too much resolution and the rhyme becomes

419
00:37:01,834 --> 00:37:07,898
more, I guess, loud or it stands out more than the message.

420
00:37:08,315 --> 00:37:09,701
if that makes sense.

421
00:37:11,390 --> 00:37:24,194
Well, think actually you mentioned blowing in the wind and if there's a perfect song out
there, like if you said, me a perfect song, that one's up there.

422
00:37:25,055 --> 00:37:27,596
I can't even believe a person wrote that song.

423
00:37:27,596 --> 00:37:30,176
It just seems like it would have been around forever.

424
00:37:30,516 --> 00:37:35,858
But what he is saying is there is an answer.

425
00:37:36,526 --> 00:37:38,247
but we don't quite have it yet.

426
00:37:38,247 --> 00:37:42,840
It's there, it's right out there, right in front of us maybe even, but we don't quite have
it.

427
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:50,134
So to have this less stable, because there is an answer, so there's some stability in
that, but we don't have it.

428
00:37:50,695 --> 00:37:55,877
It's another level on how that song works so well.

429
00:37:56,135 --> 00:37:56,958
Right?

430
00:37:58,392 --> 00:38:01,076
How much conscious effort do you put into this?

431
00:38:01,076 --> 00:38:11,632
Because we were just saying before that if you overthink it, if you try to get too clever,
you also can lose the train that you're trying to ride.

432
00:38:11,632 --> 00:38:14,185
I'm curious.

433
00:38:14,319 --> 00:38:16,859
Yeah, don't think it's necessarily being clever.

434
00:38:16,859 --> 00:38:20,521
I think it's being thoughtful about prosody, right?

435
00:38:20,521 --> 00:38:28,944
So what we're talking about is the concept of how does structure support lyrical message?

436
00:38:32,345 --> 00:38:37,776
what you're saying is like, wow, this is really technical and do I wanna sit and think
about this?

437
00:38:37,776 --> 00:38:40,407
And people will be like, do you think Dylan thought about this?

438
00:38:41,115 --> 00:38:45,296
It doesn't matter what the writer thought, but the song is doing it, right?

439
00:38:45,296 --> 00:38:50,558
Like regardless of if Dylan thought about that or not, he still used friend and wind.

440
00:38:50,998 --> 00:38:53,198
Like how did he come to that decision?

441
00:38:53,198 --> 00:38:54,719
Who knows, right?

442
00:38:54,719 --> 00:39:05,952
But there's still a rhyme as a sonic relationship and the words friend and wind, most
people would say like those don't rhyme, but they actually do.

443
00:39:05,952 --> 00:39:08,963
It's the consonant that's rhyming instead of the vowel.

444
00:39:09,383 --> 00:39:18,212
But to answer your question about where does this come in the process, usually it comes in
the editing phase.

445
00:39:18,212 --> 00:39:28,182
So usually it's a good idea to create and get a whole bunch of material, sort of get the
first draft, get the spark out, right?

446
00:39:28,182 --> 00:39:33,066
But then go back and look, how can I make this support?

447
00:39:33,391 --> 00:39:35,952
an emotion better?

448
00:39:35,952 --> 00:39:40,153
Or how do I make it support emotions more strong or stronger?

449
00:39:41,854 --> 00:39:46,355
So you may read your section, you'll be like, something feels off.

450
00:39:46,355 --> 00:39:48,496
Well, what if you just drop a line?

451
00:39:48,496 --> 00:39:55,578
So now instead of having four lines that balance, what if you only have three lines that
are unbalanced?

452
00:39:55,778 --> 00:39:57,679
And does that tension

453
00:39:58,557 --> 00:40:00,729
fit with the way it feels.

454
00:40:00,729 --> 00:40:10,497
So it all comes down to feel and how does that equate with what you want the listener to
feel or what is your character feeling?

455
00:40:12,079 --> 00:40:20,386
So I think about it kind of all the time because I'm aware of it, but at the same time, I
don't let it limit the creativity.

456
00:40:20,386 --> 00:40:22,548
I use it as an option.

457
00:40:22,548 --> 00:40:25,871
So it's a kind of what happens if...

458
00:40:25,871 --> 00:40:41,732
Instead of rhyming friend and end like like just just take that line the answer my friend
Is standing at the end That doesn't have the same emotion as the answer my friend is

459
00:40:41,732 --> 00:40:50,908
blowing in the wind Now all of a sudden we're like Floating right like it feels like it's
not resolved.

460
00:40:50,908 --> 00:40:55,438
Well, the wind isn't resolved the answer like you said isn't resolved

461
00:40:55,438 --> 00:40:56,581
It's blowing.

462
00:40:56,839 --> 00:41:01,082
But think of how many writers would write it as a perfect rhyme.

463
00:41:01,643 --> 00:41:02,304
You know what I mean?

464
00:41:02,304 --> 00:41:05,666
So they're limiting the emotion of their piece.

465
00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:14,794
It's a really interesting choice actually the more you think of it because the my friend
part is kind of unnecessary.

466
00:41:15,455 --> 00:41:22,158
The concept still comes across if he says the answer is blown in the wind, which he does
immediately afterwards.

467
00:41:22,419 --> 00:41:26,111
But to throw in my friend, you get that kind of unstable rhyme.

468
00:41:26,111 --> 00:41:35,326
Like you said, there's some stability, but not complete, but it's also got the emotional
baggage of friend.

469
00:41:35,626 --> 00:41:44,368
He's talking to us, my friend, you know, he's kind of comforting us in a way, but also
pointing out the problem.

470
00:41:44,368 --> 00:41:49,084
I mean, it just, it lands on so many levels so well.

471
00:41:50,611 --> 00:41:56,223
But the other thing that you're referring to here then is who is the singer singing to,
right?

472
00:41:56,223 --> 00:42:00,254
So things that are important to think about when you're writing is point of view.

473
00:42:00,254 --> 00:42:05,015
So who is singing, who are they singing to, and why?

474
00:42:05,215 --> 00:42:09,456
So the song, Blowing in the Wind, starts with a bunch of questions.

475
00:42:09,456 --> 00:42:14,518
Well, who is the singer asking those questions to?

476
00:42:15,258 --> 00:42:18,859
And he's establishing point of view by saying, my friend.

477
00:42:20,699 --> 00:42:29,163
So is my friend, my friend to me when I hear that song, it feels like he's talking to us,
right?

478
00:42:29,184 --> 00:42:42,061
But if he just asked a bunch of questions and he never said another character, we wouldn't
know who the singer is talking to and it wouldn't anchor it into a concrete like sort of

479
00:42:42,061 --> 00:42:42,931
message, right?

480
00:42:42,931 --> 00:42:48,955
Like we need to know why is the singer telling it because it matters who they're telling
it to.

481
00:42:49,341 --> 00:42:50,352
Does that make sense?

482
00:42:50,352 --> 00:42:56,998
So what he's doing is he's establishing point of view, which also can have an effect on
emotion.

483
00:42:57,314 --> 00:42:58,114
Hmm.

484
00:42:58,514 --> 00:43:10,484
Yeah, the characters in the song are the speaker, the actual people in the song, and then
who's listening is another angle at it.

485
00:43:10,785 --> 00:43:22,413
They all do play into it and change the way we interpret based on that, because he could
be kind of complaining to society or the world or the government.

486
00:43:22,828 --> 00:43:27,739
but that he brings it back to my friend, meaning like us.

487
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,201
Part of, think, what he's trying to say too is we're the ones that can do something about
it.

488
00:43:33,461 --> 00:43:39,623
So it's very well put together.

489
00:43:39,623 --> 00:43:44,784
yeah, I could understand people saying like, well, was he really thinking about that?

490
00:43:44,784 --> 00:43:48,365
might just rolled off his tongue nicely, which it does.

491
00:43:49,486 --> 00:43:50,336
But.

492
00:43:52,374 --> 00:43:59,596
I think to fear that more knowledge is going to inhibit you is not really the case.

493
00:43:59,596 --> 00:44:01,437
Like you said, it's a choice.

494
00:44:01,437 --> 00:44:04,788
Like now you just have another option, something you're aware of.

495
00:44:04,788 --> 00:44:07,509
Like you said that, okay, so something's not working here.

496
00:44:07,509 --> 00:44:13,601
Well, I know about like, you know, maybe a three line part would be nice because it's
going to be unsettling.

497
00:44:13,701 --> 00:44:17,962
Or I want to settle this part nicely because I want to put a cap on this thought.

498
00:44:18,545 --> 00:44:19,395
Right.

499
00:44:20,497 --> 00:44:24,702
You know, at Berkeley we teach tools, not rules.

500
00:44:24,702 --> 00:44:25,122
Right?

501
00:44:25,122 --> 00:44:29,747
So the idea of tools, or let's start with rules, right?

502
00:44:29,747 --> 00:44:32,961
Like rules are usually things like don't do this, right?

503
00:44:32,961 --> 00:44:35,392
Like rules are like things you can't do.

504
00:44:35,874 --> 00:44:40,018
Tools give you options of what you could try.

505
00:44:40,421 --> 00:44:45,034
So when you're talking lyric, you really have five tools.

506
00:44:45,034 --> 00:44:52,838
So you have the number of lines, you have the length of the lines, which is the number of
stressed syllables.

507
00:44:53,499 --> 00:44:56,050
You also have the rhythm pattern of the line.

508
00:44:56,050 --> 00:45:01,143
So that is the rhythmic pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables.

509
00:45:01,343 --> 00:45:06,206
Then you also have your rhyme scheme and your rhyme type.

510
00:45:06,545 --> 00:45:13,046
So those are really the five tools that you have to play with when it comes to structure
within Lyric.

511
00:45:14,389 --> 00:45:20,339
So you can experiment with all of those things to see what feels the best.

512
00:45:21,587 --> 00:45:32,573
I'm writing them down right now just because I'm aware of all these things but to see them
in front of you is handy because you know you always think of them in the moment or just

513
00:45:32,573 --> 00:45:43,008
to know like okay I'm working on this song so I'm trying to figure it out maybe I need to
change the length maybe I need to alter the rhyme or or fake out the rhyme

514
00:45:44,022 --> 00:45:50,247
I think a lot of music is playing around with expectations, like you kind of mentioned
before.

515
00:45:50,247 --> 00:45:57,992
We expect something to happen and then if it doesn't, so it's this balance of familiar,
unfamiliar, expected and unexpected.

516
00:45:58,653 --> 00:46:02,747
And if you go too far in any either direction, it kind of doesn't work.

517
00:46:02,747 --> 00:46:09,211
You get too familiar and then it's like, you know, just cliche and obvious what's going to
happen next.

518
00:46:09,211 --> 00:46:10,050
And if you

519
00:46:10,050 --> 00:46:13,199
go too far, then it's like, I don't know where we are.

520
00:46:13,199 --> 00:46:14,432
I don't know where the one is.

521
00:46:14,432 --> 00:46:18,793
And I don't know what's the, it becomes very abstract.

522
00:46:19,805 --> 00:46:29,659
To me, when people say clever, that's what that means is it's almost like it's on the edge
of like, I'm just doing this because I'm gonna do it.

523
00:46:29,919 --> 00:46:38,263
And I know some songwriters that they just like to, they say they wanna break the rules,
even though there are no rules, they like to break the rules, right?

524
00:46:38,563 --> 00:46:47,847
And then they'll make these songs that are totally just wacky and they're just trying to
sort of like show off like, hey, look at how clever I am as a songwriter.

525
00:46:48,219 --> 00:46:51,121
And I just think that's not the right way to think about it, right?

526
00:46:51,121 --> 00:46:58,805
I think you prove your worth as a songwriter by making somebody feel something in my mind,
right?

527
00:46:58,805 --> 00:47:07,000
So if you're doing something that's clever, sometimes you risk it becoming like a novelty,
right?

528
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:12,193
Which there's nothing wrong with that if novelty is what you're going for.

529
00:47:12,979 --> 00:47:13,865
Do you know what I'm saying?

530
00:47:13,865 --> 00:47:14,243
Like...

531
00:47:14,243 --> 00:47:14,835
Mm-hmm.

532
00:47:14,835 --> 00:47:22,335
Sometimes you might want to be funny and you might want to be a little bit over the top
But that's because the song calls for it, right?

533
00:47:22,335 --> 00:47:32,775
like maybe the song is about falling in love and you're just like a blithering like clown
all the time and then all of a sudden you're like, yeah, let's just throw in these the

534
00:47:32,775 --> 00:47:41,515
structure or let's throw in these things that are Clownish because it fits with what's
happening You know what I mean?

535
00:47:41,672 --> 00:47:45,284
Yeah, yeah, it's another tool, right?

536
00:47:47,322 --> 00:47:54,705
I think that might be part of the reason I've not really enjoyed...

537
00:47:55,745 --> 00:48:04,225
Some music people think that I'm going to enjoy, that's really, well, listen to like the
time signature here, and like you never know where they're going to go, and listen how

538
00:48:04,225 --> 00:48:06,309
good they play their instrument.

539
00:48:07,009 --> 00:48:09,250
I mean, some of it's impressive.

540
00:48:09,750 --> 00:48:15,983
just from like as a musician and the ability to like move my fingers, it's impressive.

541
00:48:15,983 --> 00:48:18,735
But it doesn't take me too far.

542
00:48:18,735 --> 00:48:27,920
My friends will send me like a video of like a 11 year old shredding over like some famous
song that's better than the original solo.

543
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,521
it's like, they're very good.

544
00:48:30,521 --> 00:48:31,822
It's impressive.

545
00:48:31,822 --> 00:48:34,383
But it's that's a whole other.

546
00:48:34,784 --> 00:48:37,205
It's like another sport or something.

547
00:48:37,665 --> 00:48:39,323
This this idea of.

548
00:48:39,323 --> 00:48:40,665
I think.

549
00:48:40,665 --> 00:48:55,768
know if it's called virtuosity, but because it's almost to me like misapplied virtuosity,
but my maybe it's just my goal is a little different where I'm trying to make the music

550
00:48:55,768 --> 00:49:00,294
not just play the instrument really well.

551
00:49:00,294 --> 00:49:02,134
Does that make sense?

552
00:49:02,314 --> 00:49:03,114
difference, right?

553
00:49:03,114 --> 00:49:09,758
Like, can someone on an instrument make you feel something and can that be entertaining?

554
00:49:09,758 --> 00:49:11,469
like, absolutely.

555
00:49:11,549 --> 00:49:13,430
That's not really what I aim for though.

556
00:49:13,430 --> 00:49:17,913
I'm more of a songwriter that I want someone to connect with the song.

557
00:49:17,913 --> 00:49:21,055
And a lot of times it doesn't have to be complicated.

558
00:49:21,055 --> 00:49:28,019
It doesn't have to be showy in order to communicate something really powerful, right?

559
00:49:28,828 --> 00:49:41,018
Like think of the song like I can't make you love me if you don't Like think of how simple
that is like turn down the lights turn down the bed turn down these voices inside my head,

560
00:49:41,018 --> 00:49:48,224
right and the music just The tempo the music just like pulls at your heartstrings, right?

561
00:49:48,224 --> 00:49:49,255
It's very subtle.

562
00:49:49,255 --> 00:49:55,790
It's very Unassuming but yet that song really touches a ton of people

563
00:49:57,541 --> 00:50:00,084
So there's a place for everything, right?

564
00:50:00,084 --> 00:50:06,960
And then you think about dance music and dance music, is that supposed to be talking to
our head?

565
00:50:07,011 --> 00:50:07,782
No.

566
00:50:07,782 --> 00:50:13,658
You sometimes people will like poo poo on pop music or dance music and they'll be like,
the lyrics are cheesy, man.

567
00:50:13,658 --> 00:50:15,530
Like they're no Bob Dylan.

568
00:50:15,530 --> 00:50:16,570
And it's like,

569
00:50:16,785 --> 00:50:20,027
Yeah, but people aren't listening to that for the same reason.

570
00:50:20,027 --> 00:50:22,148
Like people want to dance to dance music.

571
00:50:22,148 --> 00:50:27,001
So they want to be physically invested instead of mentally invested, right?

572
00:50:27,001 --> 00:50:31,523
So there's different listener investment, I think that happens.

573
00:50:31,624 --> 00:50:36,767
And you as the writer get to decide like, what is the star of the show here?

574
00:50:36,887 --> 00:50:38,558
Like, is it the groove?

575
00:50:38,558 --> 00:50:40,149
Is it the music?

576
00:50:40,649 --> 00:50:43,411
And then if it's the groove and the music,

577
00:50:43,717 --> 00:50:45,468
You don't have to write as many lyrics.

578
00:50:45,468 --> 00:50:47,869
You don't have to write as complicated of lyrics.

579
00:50:47,869 --> 00:50:58,733
But if you want to be a singer songwriter where it's you and just a single instrument,
more than likely, it's going to be a little bit more melody and lyric focused, right?

580
00:50:58,733 --> 00:51:04,454
Because those are going to be more of the star of the show, more so than the accompaniment
of it.

581
00:51:05,681 --> 00:51:07,813
So I think there's a place for all of it.

582
00:51:07,813 --> 00:51:21,405
And it makes me mad when people like sort of downplay certain genres because like, do you
think that those writers care any less about the craft than like what you do?

583
00:51:21,405 --> 00:51:22,034
You know what I mean?

584
00:51:22,034 --> 00:51:24,357
Yeah.

585
00:51:24,424 --> 00:51:28,546
Yeah, that's something getting into production has taught me actually quite a lot.

586
00:51:28,546 --> 00:51:43,016
And even, sometimes it might be just like pop music that comes out that feels generic or
maybe kind of riding a trend, know, vapid, vapid, right?

587
00:51:43,016 --> 00:51:44,917
Like some of that kind of stuff.

588
00:51:44,917 --> 00:51:51,922
But the kind of magic is in the production in that part of the craft.

589
00:51:52,158 --> 00:52:03,473
And I think electronic and dance music is a good example of music that has its purpose in
that you're out and you're with this group of people having this sort of communal

590
00:52:03,473 --> 00:52:07,821
experience and that there's something physical about music.

591
00:52:07,821 --> 00:52:12,707
mean, it is literally physical movement of air.

592
00:52:12,728 --> 00:52:22,232
So when you're in that, mean, stand in front of a huge guitar amp and just play an A
chord, I mean, that's satisfying and to feel

593
00:52:22,232 --> 00:52:32,317
the thumping of like those sub speakers it definitely does something to you and you
probably don't want the lyrics getting in the way of that too much maybe something like

594
00:52:32,317 --> 00:52:44,602
which is why I like the repetitious repetitive lines that get are often in that kind of
music is there to get you in that hypnotic state of mind

595
00:52:44,851 --> 00:52:46,202
100%.

596
00:52:46,202 --> 00:52:56,044
But now imagine taking those songs and just having someone playing an acoustic guitar with
a very repetitive chord pattern and then just repeating the same lyric, right?

597
00:52:56,044 --> 00:52:59,508
That doesn't translate very well.

598
00:52:59,508 --> 00:53:02,566
It might, but yeah.

599
00:53:02,566 --> 00:53:03,527
but gotcha.

600
00:53:03,527 --> 00:53:14,951
It's something, I think we spoke about this a little bit maybe on Saturday at the At Home
Songwriting Meeting Group where we were talking about the purpose.

601
00:53:14,991 --> 00:53:17,772
What is the purpose of the song?

602
00:53:18,093 --> 00:53:19,133
Who's listening to it?

603
00:53:19,133 --> 00:53:19,773
For what reason?

604
00:53:19,773 --> 00:53:21,094
What are they doing?

605
00:53:22,008 --> 00:53:23,789
Am I driving home at night from the party?

606
00:53:23,789 --> 00:53:24,699
Am I at the party?

607
00:53:24,699 --> 00:53:25,910
Am I trying to fall asleep?

608
00:53:25,910 --> 00:53:31,082
Am I doing yoga or meditation or am I hitting the gym?

609
00:53:31,082 --> 00:53:40,646
All of those call for much different types of experiences and music will color it in a
much different way each time.

610
00:53:41,745 --> 00:53:51,653
Yeah, and I think too, like thinking of the purpose as a writer, thinking of the purpose
of your song is important because you can't have everything, like you can't have a really

611
00:53:51,653 --> 00:53:57,358
killer lyric plus a killer melody, plus a killer guitar part, plus a killer beat.

612
00:53:57,358 --> 00:54:06,516
like all of these things that are at like level 10, like something has to stand out
otherwise nothing stands out, right?

613
00:54:06,516 --> 00:54:09,858
So I think as, as songwriters, we kind of have to determine

614
00:54:10,295 --> 00:54:13,497
What is sort of the role that this song plays?

615
00:54:13,497 --> 00:54:17,730
Like, am I speaking like emotionally to someone?

616
00:54:17,730 --> 00:54:20,122
Am I speaking intellectually to someone?

617
00:54:20,122 --> 00:54:24,705
I think there are songs that speak to our intellect more than our emotion, right?

618
00:54:24,705 --> 00:54:32,061
A lot of times protest songs or like sort of current event type songs.

619
00:54:32,061 --> 00:54:38,043
I mean, they're emotional, but they're also really talking about very concrete like

620
00:54:38,043 --> 00:54:41,504
current things that are very intellectual as well.

621
00:54:43,065 --> 00:54:49,007
And then there's also the songs like we talked about with the dance music where it's like
people just want to have a good time.

622
00:54:49,368 --> 00:54:54,130
Like, like you don't want to cry on the dance floor necessarily, right?

623
00:54:54,130 --> 00:54:56,811
Like that might kind of ruin the night.

624
00:54:57,964 --> 00:55:09,869
Yeah, it's something I picked up on playing in bands and most of the time when we play
out, it's Friday night, Saturday night at a social event, a bar half the time or a club

625
00:55:09,869 --> 00:55:19,143
and no one really wants to hear your sappy artistic, deep seated, indulgent project.

626
00:55:19,143 --> 00:55:27,360
They often, they want to be lifted up and that's became like in

627
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:31,296
understanding what we were doing with our music in certain bands that became like the
point.

628
00:55:31,296 --> 00:55:35,163
Like, all right, we're here to like make everybody have more fun.

629
00:55:35,244 --> 00:55:36,716
So let's do that.

630
00:55:38,540 --> 00:55:42,812
It helped writing the songs though because you had the purpose.

631
00:55:42,812 --> 00:55:47,755
So many decisions are made for you before you even start.

632
00:55:47,855 --> 00:55:50,977
That's one of the hardest things is to decide.

633
00:55:50,977 --> 00:55:56,120
Like you said, you want to have the song that's this and that and all these like excellent
features that are over the top.

634
00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:01,563
But probably most songs that you love are the song that does like this one thing.

635
00:56:01,883 --> 00:56:05,805
It's got this standout thing about it that you remember.

636
00:56:05,805 --> 00:56:07,616
this is the song that has that.

637
00:56:07,822 --> 00:56:12,942
insert whatever not 47 things that it does

638
00:56:13,617 --> 00:56:18,552
Well, and I hear a lot of newer writers coming to me and they want to learn about chords,
right?

639
00:56:18,552 --> 00:56:24,577
They're like, I need better chords because they think better chords equals better song.

640
00:56:24,777 --> 00:56:30,793
And what I like to remind them is that your chords are not your song.

641
00:56:30,793 --> 00:56:34,986
Your chords are there to color the melody and they're there to color the lyric.

642
00:56:35,365 --> 00:56:40,438
So there's a reason why there's millions of songs that only have three chords, right?

643
00:56:40,438 --> 00:56:49,442
Like because they have enough emotion, they have enough movement in order to color what's
happening melodically, what's happening lyrically.

644
00:56:49,623 --> 00:56:55,526
If you make your chords too complicated, people won't pay attention to what you're saying.

645
00:56:55,526 --> 00:57:04,791
So if you want people to pay attention to what you're saying, the more simple you can make
the chords and the more simple you can make the melody, the better because

646
00:57:05,299 --> 00:57:09,879
You don't want to have people subconsciously trying to figure out your song.

647
00:57:09,879 --> 00:57:12,439
You want them listening and feeling the song.

648
00:57:12,439 --> 00:57:16,299
I always say that once you make people think, you've lost them.

649
00:57:16,999 --> 00:57:20,559
So sometimes writers like to almost write a riddle.

650
00:57:20,559 --> 00:57:24,479
Like, well, I don't really give the message until like after the bridge, right?

651
00:57:24,479 --> 00:57:25,859
Like really late in the song.

652
00:57:25,859 --> 00:57:28,779
It's like, nobody's gonna even get there.

653
00:57:28,859 --> 00:57:30,099
You know what I mean?

654
00:57:30,099 --> 00:57:31,159
Like.

655
00:57:31,331 --> 00:57:42,711
You need to make it so they feel it and they get it as soon as possible because and it's
even worse in today's day and age where the average playtime on Spotify is less than seven

656
00:57:42,711 --> 00:57:43,131
seconds.

657
00:57:43,131 --> 00:57:50,367
So if you don't catch somebody within about seven seconds, like they're not gonna listen
to your song.

658
00:57:51,769 --> 00:57:53,991
really the idea here is

659
00:57:54,395 --> 00:57:58,776
You don't want your listener doing a like a story problem.

660
00:57:58,776 --> 00:58:02,767
You want them feeling and getting like immersed in your story.

661
00:58:02,767 --> 00:58:03,848
So how do you do that?

662
00:58:03,848 --> 00:58:06,038
How do you how do do that lyrically?

663
00:58:06,038 --> 00:58:08,715
How do you do that musically?

664
00:58:08,715 --> 00:58:11,260
A lot of times it's not by getting more complicated.

665
00:58:11,260 --> 00:58:15,281
It's about getting more intentional on structure, right?

666
00:58:15,281 --> 00:58:23,563
So thinking about how does this move and how does this communicate the emotion that you're
trying to say?

667
00:58:24,898 --> 00:58:29,481
So do you have any thoughts on how we can do that musically?

668
00:58:29,481 --> 00:58:38,068
How we can pull people into the story early on so that they want to stick around and make
it past seven seconds?

669
00:58:38,989 --> 00:58:46,394
I'm always thinking, I'm surprised it's that long, but I guess there are songs people
actually listen to the whole thing, which probably really skews this.

670
00:58:46,474 --> 00:58:48,045
It's probably at the extremes, right?

671
00:58:48,045 --> 00:58:50,377
Like two seconds and four minutes.

672
00:58:50,483 --> 00:58:52,464
Probably, right, right.

673
00:58:53,923 --> 00:58:59,108
I mean, music wise, mean, listen to the songs that you like, right?

674
00:58:59,108 --> 00:59:13,907
And just listen to the intro and take a song and really pay attention to like, is the
music doing to set that mood before even one word is even said, right?

675
00:59:13,907 --> 00:59:16,379
And a lot of times you will find...

676
00:59:16,795 --> 00:59:23,281
that that emotion is being established before the singer even says anything.

677
00:59:23,682 --> 00:59:33,513
Like, and it's fun to do if you take a song that you don't know, and just play the intro
and then write down what you think it could be about, and then play the rest of it and see

678
00:59:33,513 --> 00:59:34,833
if you were right.

679
00:59:35,174 --> 00:59:39,538
But how you establish that emotion is you establish it through

680
00:59:40,359 --> 00:59:42,150
the sound through the emotion.

681
00:59:42,150 --> 00:59:45,681
So it comes back to this idea of stable and unstable, right?

682
00:59:45,681 --> 00:59:48,272
Are you having resolved chords?

683
00:59:48,272 --> 00:59:50,663
Are you adding some tension, right?

684
00:59:50,663 --> 00:59:52,764
Like, well, how do you add tension to a chord?

685
00:59:52,764 --> 00:59:55,165
Well, let's take a C major chord.

686
00:59:55,245 --> 00:59:59,117
What if you add in the D, the two, right?

687
00:59:59,117 --> 01:00:02,628
So you have C major, so you're playing like a C add nine.

688
01:00:02,628 --> 01:00:10,391
Like a C add nine has a little bit of tension that your straight up triad doesn't have.

689
01:00:11,889 --> 01:00:12,199
Right?

690
01:00:12,199 --> 01:00:18,364
And then what if you take your C major chord instead of playing the D, what if you play
the F instead?

691
01:00:18,685 --> 01:00:21,006
Like what does that emotion sound like?

692
01:00:21,507 --> 01:00:24,609
And then what if you play the A on the chord?

693
01:00:24,609 --> 01:00:28,832
So that almost becomes an inverted A minor seven chord, right?

694
01:00:29,133 --> 01:00:36,678
So the notes of the scale all have different harmonic functions.

695
01:00:36,955 --> 01:00:41,439
that build or they either build tension or they resolve.

696
01:00:41,479 --> 01:00:53,259
So when you hear people talk about songwriting is all tension and release, tension and
release, that's what people are talking about is are you staying resolved or are you

697
01:00:53,259 --> 01:00:57,775
adding tension somewhere, if that makes sense?

698
01:00:57,775 --> 01:00:58,875
And how do you add tension?

699
01:00:58,875 --> 01:01:02,558
You add it through pitch and you add it through rhythm.

700
01:01:03,099 --> 01:01:08,764
So you can make something feel tense by the, you playing a steady rhythm or are you
playing an offbeat rhythm?

701
01:01:08,764 --> 01:01:15,290
Are you playing an unpredictable rhythm or are you playing exactly on a grid?

702
01:01:15,290 --> 01:01:16,070
Right?

703
01:01:16,070 --> 01:01:21,414
So all of those things go into the emotion or how it communicates.

704
01:01:24,402 --> 01:01:38,885
So we're thinking about just that, again, that feeling, I suppose, is the answer really of
what, I mean, it helps sometimes, like you're saying, like to really like listen to the

705
01:01:38,885 --> 01:01:46,732
sound of the chords, to play them slow and just kind of soak them in a little bit to
notice this stuff.

706
01:01:46,732 --> 01:01:51,065
Cause sometimes even an inversion of a chord.

707
01:01:51,406 --> 01:02:05,446
like a C major, if you start it with like that, the low E in the bass feels a little
darker and it has a different mood than if we start just C, E, G, you know, real stable,

708
01:02:05,446 --> 01:02:10,606
real unoffensive chord there.

709
01:02:10,917 --> 01:02:12,347
No, that's a perfect example.

710
01:02:12,347 --> 01:02:20,830
Like a C with an E in the bass or the first inversion is not as stable as the root
position.

711
01:02:21,110 --> 01:02:21,520
Right?

712
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:30,793
So even though you're playing a C, like if you're in the key of C, you're home, but maybe
you didn't lock the door.

713
01:02:30,793 --> 01:02:31,573
Right?

714
01:02:31,573 --> 01:02:33,714
Like there's a little bit of tension there.

715
01:02:33,714 --> 01:02:38,115
You're not completely home, but you're close enough.

716
01:02:38,717 --> 01:02:47,793
But now if you play a G chord in the key of C, now there's, I mean, a G chord is pretty
resolved, right?

717
01:02:47,793 --> 01:02:50,535
Because it's, you know, one of the one, four, five.

718
01:02:50,535 --> 01:02:55,598
So it has its own sense of resolution, but it wants to pull back to that C.

719
01:02:55,719 --> 01:02:58,680
So there's a lot of tension in the G chord.

720
01:02:58,761 --> 01:03:07,807
So that's where a lot of times you will see songs like in a pre-chorus or a bridge going
to a different degree of the scale.

721
01:03:08,537 --> 01:03:18,702
for the chord progression because it's building tension that will then resolve when you
get to the chorus that may or may not start on the one if that makes sense

722
01:03:19,264 --> 01:03:19,934
Right.

723
01:03:19,934 --> 01:03:24,117
Yeah, you're sort of saving that mood for later.

724
01:03:24,117 --> 01:03:35,642
I think about that actually a lot and contrasting a verse from a chorus or pre-chorus or
bridge, just kind of like, all right, where haven't I gone yet?

725
01:03:35,943 --> 01:03:37,123
Does it make sense to go there?

726
01:03:37,123 --> 01:03:40,605
Sometimes it makes sense to not go there at all.

727
01:03:41,465 --> 01:03:42,366
But,

728
01:03:43,047 --> 01:03:45,209
Well, and you mentioned tempo.

729
01:03:45,330 --> 01:03:49,193
Tempo is such a forgotten thing.

730
01:03:49,294 --> 01:03:56,261
Just changing the tempo of a song can completely change the emotion of it.

731
01:03:56,261 --> 01:04:04,930
Same words, same chords, sing it at a slower tempo, it can mean something completely
different than if it was sped up.

732
01:04:05,314 --> 01:04:06,114
Hmm.

733
01:04:06,856 --> 01:04:11,202
Yeah, all interesting factors you have to consider.

734
01:04:13,125 --> 01:04:13,732
Yeah.

735
01:04:13,732 --> 01:04:26,628
trying to figure out why do people react to certain songs and why, why do certain songs
have the ability to make people cry or what makes them want to, for me, it started with

736
01:04:26,628 --> 01:04:33,551
groove, like what makes people want to dance or what, what, what makes something sound or
feel funky, right?

737
01:04:33,551 --> 01:04:37,883
Like, cause I grew, I was growing up on Prince, Janet Jackson, like,

738
01:04:38,237 --> 01:04:44,103
how do they make these songs feel the way that they do and like what are they doing to
make that happen?

739
01:04:44,103 --> 01:04:49,558
And that's kind of what led me on the whole rabbit hole that never ended for me.

740
01:04:50,210 --> 01:04:54,076
Yeah, I think for me it was like, why does this song rock?

741
01:04:55,079 --> 01:04:57,293
Why is this song intense right here?

742
01:04:57,293 --> 01:04:58,094
What's happening?

743
01:04:58,094 --> 01:04:59,264
Yeah.

744
01:04:59,264 --> 01:05:03,193
why do you wanna, why the second you hear it do you wanna move to it?

745
01:05:03,193 --> 01:05:05,998
What about it does that?

746
01:05:07,042 --> 01:05:09,706
Yeah, now it's moving, it's driving, it's...

747
01:05:09,842 --> 01:05:13,412
You know, I'm gonna shake my head to it, pump my fist.

748
01:05:13,765 --> 01:05:22,320
Yeah, well from a songwriting perspective too, I like to think about like, why do some
songs, like, I don't know if you've ever gone to a performance of someone at like an open

749
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:26,242
mic or a coffee shop and they play their own song.

750
01:05:26,722 --> 01:05:29,784
Yeah, they play their own song and you're like, it's okay.

751
01:05:29,784 --> 01:05:34,587
And then all of a sudden they start playing a cover song and all of a sudden

752
01:05:35,057 --> 01:05:39,169
the environment of the room changes and now all of a sudden you're pulled in.

753
01:05:39,169 --> 01:05:53,176
And I was always like, why, if it's the same singer, same playing ability, what is
different about that cover song that pulls me in that their original song doesn't?

754
01:05:54,637 --> 01:05:59,427
You know, cause I have a friend who will remain nameless.

755
01:05:59,741 --> 01:06:03,674
But when she performs her own songs, I don't feel it.

756
01:06:03,674 --> 01:06:08,957
But when she performs cover songs, like it's a completely different experience.

757
01:06:08,957 --> 01:06:11,459
And I've always wondered why.

758
01:06:11,459 --> 01:06:14,380
And I've come to the conclusion that I think it's melody.

759
01:06:14,681 --> 01:06:19,884
I think it comes down to the melody that is supporting the lyrics.

760
01:06:19,965 --> 01:06:29,130
I think there's something that hit songs have, and I think melody is really important in
that equation.

761
01:06:29,613 --> 01:06:30,406
Hmm.

762
01:06:32,002 --> 01:06:34,663
Well, in what way?

763
01:06:35,825 --> 01:06:37,916
There's a lot to melody, right?

764
01:06:37,916 --> 01:06:41,768
And it ties in with the lyrics.

765
01:06:43,009 --> 01:06:46,411
Do you think the melodies are not as interesting?

766
01:06:46,411 --> 01:06:48,532
Are they too complicated?

767
01:06:48,862 --> 01:06:50,694
Do they not fit?

768
01:06:51,545 --> 01:06:54,417
No, I just think they're not structured.

769
01:06:54,778 --> 01:06:59,540
So a melody doesn't have to be complicated to be effective, right?

770
01:06:59,540 --> 01:07:06,676
Like it could be just a melody could be on one note and it's the rhythm that plays the
important role, right?

771
01:07:06,676 --> 01:07:09,489
Because melody is really just pitches played in rhythm.

772
01:07:09,489 --> 01:07:12,470
So it's rhythm plus pitch and

773
01:07:13,431 --> 01:07:21,560
I think what it is is if you listen to songs, there is a melodic pattern just like there
are rhyme schemes.

774
01:07:21,701 --> 01:07:29,410
So if you listen to songs, you will find that they have a repetition pattern of

775
01:07:30,159 --> 01:07:44,592
Something that's like same same different same same different right like so you might have
an aab a Or like an ab ab or an aab b And i'm not talking about rhyme i'm talking about

776
01:07:44,653 --> 01:07:55,883
lines that have the same melody And I think what effective songs do Is the repetition in
the melody?

777
01:07:56,215 --> 01:08:02,741
gives the listener a subconscious roadmap of where they are in the song.

778
01:08:03,422 --> 01:08:13,871
And instead of concentrating on the melody, they can listen then to the lyric because they
don't have to think about the melody.

779
01:08:16,374 --> 01:08:22,239
part of our job as songwriters is to really teach our listeners how to sing our song,
right?

780
01:08:22,611 --> 01:08:27,173
And again, your lyric will never outshine your music.

781
01:08:27,273 --> 01:08:32,235
So like a really good lyric will never save a weak melody.

782
01:08:32,455 --> 01:08:38,877
Whereas a really strong melody could save a weak lyric, but it's not vice versa.

783
01:08:39,698 --> 01:08:42,039
So I think my theory is...

784
01:08:42,565 --> 01:08:49,503
the melody becomes what a lot of songwriters should focus on to improve their writing the
fastest.

785
01:08:49,503 --> 01:08:57,811
Because I think people have pretty good ideas lyrically, but if the melody's not there, I
just don't think it lands very well.

786
01:08:59,625 --> 01:09:09,526
I've noticed it, yeah, doing open mic nights for decades and even seeing bands and
watching the opening band and comparison.

787
01:09:10,106 --> 01:09:18,906
I find that there's almost like a simplicity to the catchier stuff, the stuff that hits.

788
01:09:18,906 --> 01:09:25,600
It might be like AABA, whereas in, the...

789
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:38,567
original song or the cover band or the opening band will have like A B C D E F A and it's
just kind of too much or there might just be there might even be a great melody but

790
01:09:38,567 --> 01:09:52,925
there's all this other stuff working as well that detracts from it and I find when I'm
producing music in the computer and when I'm writing I think it's because I get used to it

791
01:09:53,166 --> 01:09:54,146
early

792
01:09:54,230 --> 01:09:56,832
because we never hear our songs for the first time.

793
01:09:56,832 --> 01:10:07,608
So I get used to this melody or whatever I have that I liked a lot when I was making it,
but now I know the twists and turns and I'm bored with it so now I'll make a counter

794
01:10:07,608 --> 01:10:10,300
melody and I'll make this other part that kind of...

795
01:10:10,300 --> 01:10:13,202
And next thing you know, everything's lost.

796
01:10:13,202 --> 01:10:20,896
Instead of this one nice thing shining through, it's just a crowd and it's cluttered.

797
01:10:21,787 --> 01:10:22,627
Yeah.

798
01:10:23,308 --> 01:10:27,789
And I think it happens a lot when people write lyric first, right?

799
01:10:27,789 --> 01:10:33,631
Like, because a lot of times when we're writing lyric first, we're not thinking about
rhythm.

800
01:10:33,631 --> 01:10:35,891
We're just thinking about message.

801
01:10:35,991 --> 01:10:47,935
So what happens when you start to put it to music then is you end up with these really
wandery melodies because you're trying to cram lyrical rhythm into musical rhythm.

802
01:10:48,343 --> 01:11:00,907
And sort of the way past this is to think intentionally about what's happening in your
lyric and write to a lyrical rhythm before you even put it to music, right?

803
01:11:02,068 --> 01:11:09,030
So I find it easy a lot of times to come up with a concept and then I'll make a melody and
then I'll write lyrics to the melody.

804
01:11:09,030 --> 01:11:11,951
And I think my songs are stronger because...

805
01:11:12,283 --> 01:11:23,267
I'm writing to a set melody and then that way I can, I think it gives the listener these
guide posts on where they are in the song.

806
01:11:23,587 --> 01:11:29,729
And if you study songs like Fire and Rain by James Taylor, right?

807
01:11:29,729 --> 01:11:35,131
Just yesterday morning, they let me know you were gone.

808
01:11:35,259 --> 01:11:39,521
Suzanne the plans they made put an end to you.

809
01:11:39,521 --> 01:11:41,282
So there's three lines there.

810
01:11:41,282 --> 01:11:57,371
So you have morning Gone you So it's a kind of ABC, right and then the next lines woke up
Walked out this morning and I wrote down this song

811
01:11:57,723 --> 01:12:05,143
Just can't remember who to send it to So you have morning song 2

812
01:12:05,443 --> 01:12:11,085
So instead of morning gone you, it's morning song two.

813
01:12:11,085 --> 01:12:18,448
So you have ABC ABC rhyme scheme and the melodic pattern is also ABC.

814
01:12:18,448 --> 01:12:24,011
So it goes ABC ABC both for the melody and both for the rhyme scheme.

815
01:12:24,091 --> 01:12:33,735
So one thing you'll notice if you study hit songs is that the lines that rhyme many times
have the same melody.

816
01:12:34,267 --> 01:12:43,637
So it's a good place to start and kind of teach yourself how to be a little bit more
intentional about structure.

817
01:12:43,958 --> 01:12:53,378
And I think you'll find that people will start commenting and connecting with your songs
more because they don't know what's happening, but they know that it feels more

818
01:12:53,378 --> 01:12:54,510
professional.

819
01:12:54,510 --> 01:12:55,970
Does that make sense?

820
01:12:56,130 --> 01:12:57,851
Yeah, absolutely.

821
01:12:58,051 --> 01:13:12,563
And another point about just those lines too, they're kind of complete phrases that like,
I really like when lyrics just sound natural, almost like they're spoken.

822
01:13:12,583 --> 01:13:16,478
And you have a video on this recently about like stressed syllables and things like that.

823
01:13:16,478 --> 01:13:24,773
And you kind of get into this, but just yesterday morning is like a phrase someone would
say, they let me know you were gone.

824
01:13:24,973 --> 01:13:26,048
Like it's...

825
01:13:26,048 --> 01:13:30,080
It's a part one and part two of that sentence.

826
01:13:30,941 --> 01:13:32,982
That's where punctuation would go.

827
01:13:32,982 --> 01:13:47,171
know, there's natural cadence to it where if it was like just yesterday morning, it's
disconnected and you kind of lost the train of thought as the listener.

828
01:13:47,171 --> 01:13:52,093
You're processing it in that one group that it's presented in.

829
01:13:54,518 --> 01:14:07,361
I think some of the best advice I remember getting on this podcast about singing and lyric
writing was you want to tell the story and you want to just have it come out natural.

830
01:14:07,742 --> 01:14:12,723
Focus on making it natural first and then work with that.

831
01:14:12,723 --> 01:14:24,086
But sometimes when we write the lyrics first, we wind up with these kind of weird broken
apart things because the melody and the lyrics are not together.

832
01:14:24,908 --> 01:14:35,534
It doesn't follow this sort of question answer or this kind of natural punctuation that we
have in our speech.

833
01:14:35,815 --> 01:14:37,715
Right, right.

834
01:14:37,976 --> 01:14:44,067
And what's interesting about that is, you know, just yesterday morning, comma, they let me
know you were gone.

835
01:14:44,067 --> 01:14:48,058
That pause kicks it to a new melodic phrase.

836
01:14:48,058 --> 01:14:55,470
So a lot of times you don't want to split a thought between two lines unless there's a
natural place to do it.

837
01:14:55,470 --> 01:14:57,201
And that's kind of what you're talking about.

838
01:14:57,201 --> 01:15:02,322
Like you said, just yesterday morning, they let me know you were gone.

839
01:15:02,322 --> 01:15:04,455
Sounds weird, but

840
01:15:04,455 --> 01:15:06,656
We do that as writers sometimes.

841
01:15:06,657 --> 01:15:11,581
And that's called an enjambment, where it's two thoughts split over two lines.

842
01:15:11,861 --> 01:15:24,492
And the other thing about, like songs like this too, is you want to stay conversational
and you want to establish a who, when, and aware as soon as possible, or at least two of

843
01:15:24,492 --> 01:15:25,533
the three, right?

844
01:15:25,533 --> 01:15:28,975
So just yesterday morning, that's a when.

845
01:15:29,496 --> 01:15:32,498
They let me know you were gone, that's a who.

846
01:15:33,231 --> 01:15:40,517
Suzanne the plans they made put an end to you So that's more about the what so you have a
who a when and a what?

847
01:15:40,918 --> 01:15:45,842
I got up this morning That's when I wrote down this song.

848
01:15:45,842 --> 01:15:56,651
So that's a who and a what I just can't remember who to send it to That's more of a
thought so we really don't get aware right, but we get a who when and a what?

849
01:15:56,923 --> 01:16:07,074
So the more information you can give your listener early in the song, that information
sticks with the listener throughout the entire song.

850
01:16:07,115 --> 01:16:13,542
So if you wait till too late in the song to introduce a character or introduce an idea,

851
01:16:14,609 --> 01:16:17,901
That information doesn't color what's already happened.

852
01:16:17,901 --> 01:16:20,822
Information runs forward within the song.

853
01:16:20,822 --> 01:16:29,066
So establishing that point of view, establishing kind of that situation is so important to
do that in that first verse.

854
01:16:29,066 --> 01:16:36,909
And that's really the job of the first verse is to establish the who, when, where, kind of
what's happening.

855
01:16:36,909 --> 01:16:42,732
And then your chorus tells you, why did we just tell you all of this stuff?

856
01:16:42,732 --> 01:16:44,613
The chorus is the emotional center.

857
01:16:44,613 --> 01:16:47,116
The chorus is the emotional why.

858
01:16:47,116 --> 01:16:52,203
So a lot of times you don't, you're not giving the listener a whole bunch new information
in your chorus.

859
01:16:52,203 --> 01:16:55,406
You're just summarizing and kind of talking about the emotion.

860
01:16:56,696 --> 01:16:59,425
Yeah, I think that's kind of the message.

861
01:17:00,157 --> 01:17:00,933
Great.

862
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:17,470
kind of theme in the chorus and then all the other stuff is like you said setting and time
place who yeah it's helpful to think that way too because again like this just gives you

863
01:17:17,470 --> 01:17:26,086
these choices where otherwise it's hard to know where to begin where to start

864
01:17:27,052 --> 01:17:39,667
I find for myself, in order to get this right, my lyric writing process is usually
blabber, singing, nonsense, where I'm trying to just find consonants, vowels, timing,

865
01:17:39,667 --> 01:17:42,668
rhythm, and shapes.

866
01:17:44,589 --> 01:17:48,011
And in that process, something comes out.

867
01:17:48,011 --> 01:17:52,052
I might say something, it just kind of falls out and then it's like, there we go.

868
01:17:52,052 --> 01:17:54,453
That's a good thing I can work around.

869
01:17:55,294 --> 01:17:56,154
But...

870
01:17:56,467 --> 01:17:56,857
Do you?

871
01:17:56,857 --> 01:18:01,709
less often do I write something first and then try to put it to music.

872
01:18:01,709 --> 01:18:04,713
It just doesn't happen.

873
01:18:04,713 --> 01:18:07,396
do you start with music first usually?

874
01:18:07,818 --> 01:18:11,284
Or at least a groove or like a, yeah.

875
01:18:11,284 --> 01:18:14,685
I like to keep like lyric ideas.

876
01:18:14,685 --> 01:18:20,948
So I've got a giant list of things I think would make good titles or lines or just topics.

877
01:18:21,889 --> 01:18:32,174
But it's very unusual that I write them out and then put the music to it just because the
music is the thing that...

878
01:18:32,470 --> 01:18:33,870
It's like the vehicle.

879
01:18:33,870 --> 01:18:37,694
I need to pick out the vehicle before I put the people in the car.

880
01:18:38,615 --> 01:18:39,216
I don't know.

881
01:18:39,216 --> 01:18:43,559
I guess you could pick people and then find a car, but I think it's a lot harder.

882
01:18:44,160 --> 01:18:47,683
It's easier to have the car and know how many people I can fit.

883
01:18:48,824 --> 01:18:50,345
Stretch that metaphor.

884
01:18:50,667 --> 01:18:54,587
think the more, well, you have to know where you're going too, right?

885
01:18:54,587 --> 01:18:57,647
Like once you get the car, you kind of have to know, like, well, where are we going?

886
01:18:57,647 --> 01:18:58,767
Are we just gonna sit here?

887
01:18:58,767 --> 01:19:00,387
Are we gonna go somewhere?

888
01:19:00,487 --> 01:19:00,795
But.

889
01:19:00,795 --> 01:19:03,869
knowing what kind of car helps you determine where you're to go, right?

890
01:19:03,869 --> 01:19:12,160
Like, the sound of this thing informs the lyrical content.

891
01:19:12,561 --> 01:19:13,471
Right.

892
01:19:15,094 --> 01:19:24,204
I think the more I study like hit songwriters and things, I think a lot of times the music
is coming first.

893
01:19:24,204 --> 01:19:32,113
And I think a lot of times if the lyric is early in the process, it's almost at the same
time as the music.

894
01:19:32,113 --> 01:19:34,194
I think there's very few.

895
01:19:34,555 --> 01:19:38,338
people that are writing a lyric and then setting it to music.

896
01:19:38,338 --> 01:19:46,773
I think there's such an important relationship between the two that the sooner you can
start putting them together, the better.

897
01:19:46,773 --> 01:19:53,268
Now that that I mean, there's times where I'll write a verse and then figure out how it
goes.

898
01:19:53,268 --> 01:19:57,831
And then I'll create music for the court that contrast to that for the chorus and like

899
01:19:57,831 --> 01:19:59,474
you know, kind of go from there.

900
01:19:59,474 --> 01:20:05,996
But I find my songs when I start lyric first are not as strong as when I start with melody
and music first.

901
01:20:05,996 --> 01:20:08,450
If that makes sense.

902
01:20:08,610 --> 01:20:15,992
Definitely, because you hear it and they say, that's a feeling and that makes me think
about this.

903
01:20:15,992 --> 01:20:24,274
Memories start popping up or you start imagining things to go with it where you just don't
get that.

904
01:20:24,274 --> 01:20:30,136
The music, like you said, that's the heart part and the mind reacts to the heart.

905
01:20:30,136 --> 01:20:37,378
We think about the way we feel and that's where my supposed lyrics start coming in.

906
01:20:37,937 --> 01:20:39,888
Well, music is universal, right?

907
01:20:39,888 --> 01:20:42,310
Like music is sort of the universal language.

908
01:20:42,310 --> 01:20:49,854
You can hear a song that's in a language you don't understand, and you can still kind of
tell what emotion they're communicating.

909
01:20:50,255 --> 01:20:57,090
So, you know, the fact that that emotion isn't really coming from the lyric takes a little
bit of pressure off of us.

910
01:20:57,090 --> 01:21:02,183
But I think what's fun to do sometimes is if you have a title idea or you have a line.

911
01:21:02,539 --> 01:21:04,150
run it through different emotions.

912
01:21:04,150 --> 01:21:07,522
Like if I'm writing a happy song, what does this title mean?

913
01:21:07,522 --> 01:21:10,399
If I'm writing a sad song, what does this title mean?

914
01:21:10,399 --> 01:21:14,339
If I'm writing a song about nostalgia, what does the title mean?

915
01:21:14,339 --> 01:21:19,059
If I'm writing a song about betrayal, what does the title mean?

916
01:21:19,059 --> 01:21:22,751
You know, like and run it through these different lenses of emotion.

917
01:21:23,025 --> 01:21:32,702
And you might find that what you originally thought isn't as cool as something that sort
of raises its hand and says like, that feels really cool.

918
01:21:33,132 --> 01:21:33,982
Hmm.

919
01:21:34,163 --> 01:21:35,263
Yeah, that's a cool idea.

920
01:21:35,263 --> 01:21:46,010
Because I do that a lot with my list of ideas, because I might have something and then
I'll just kind of scan it and I'll be like, I thought that was going to be happy or sad or

921
01:21:46,010 --> 01:21:53,854
and now it's like kind of a joke or now it's it's, you know, sarcastic in this context.

922
01:21:54,095 --> 01:21:59,958
And that's all because of the shading the music gives it.

923
01:22:01,307 --> 01:22:11,430
Yeah, so like that's why some people think like well I want to write a really sad song,
but I want the music to be really happy Well, you can definitely do that But does that

924
01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:13,151
what emotion does that communicate?

925
01:22:13,151 --> 01:22:19,972
Like are you cool if people look at that as being sarcasm or kind of a sense of irony in a
way?

926
01:22:20,053 --> 01:22:28,055
you know Because I get it some people are like well if i'm writing a sad song then I don't
just want to make it sad like that sounds so cliche, but

927
01:22:28,763 --> 01:22:39,631
It's cliche to us as writers and are we writing to impress our other writer friends or are
we writing to impress like the people that are not writers, right?

928
01:22:41,036 --> 01:22:46,888
Yeah, think Impress is just the wrong angle.

929
01:22:46,908 --> 01:22:50,289
It doesn't work for me usually.

930
01:22:51,510 --> 01:23:00,894
It's a front kind of, it's like a flex or something, you know, it's not a real emotion
really.

931
01:23:01,435 --> 01:23:05,718
I'm writing to impress my five monthly listeners on Spotify.

932
01:23:06,839 --> 01:23:16,076
No, no, I think when I write, like, I just want to write the best song that I can and I
want it to feel good to me because I'm probably the person that's going to listen to my

933
01:23:16,076 --> 01:23:19,529
song more than anybody else.

934
01:23:19,649 --> 01:23:26,655
And I always look at every song as a learning experience because that takes some of the
pressure off of perfection, right?

935
01:23:26,655 --> 01:23:27,435
Like.

936
01:23:27,493 --> 01:23:29,364
Let's just see what happens.

937
01:23:29,384 --> 01:23:31,076
And this is just an experiment.

938
01:23:31,076 --> 01:23:32,566
I'm just learning.

939
01:23:32,583 --> 01:23:37,420
And it helps to kind of take out that like I have to write a masterpiece today.

940
01:23:37,420 --> 01:23:39,371
You know what I mean?

941
01:23:39,432 --> 01:23:44,175
If I just look at it as like I'm just practicing, then it's just practice.

942
01:23:45,666 --> 01:23:48,776
How long do you generally spend writing a song?

943
01:23:51,332 --> 01:23:52,431
That's a good question.

944
01:23:52,431 --> 01:24:07,883
I would say from nothing to like mixed and mastered is probably about seven to eight
hours, but rarely is that ever a linear seven or eight hours, if that makes sense, because

945
01:24:07,883 --> 01:24:18,970
I have a day job, I have the Berkeley gig, I have at home songwriting, I have my YouTube
channel, I have a partner, I have a dog, like I live life, so.

946
01:24:19,643 --> 01:24:22,084
I would say I can do about a song a week.

947
01:24:22,284 --> 01:24:31,318
You know, if you spread it out over the course of a week, you know, I might be coming up
with part of a track one day and then living with the melody for a while.

948
01:24:31,318 --> 01:24:34,229
And like I work in these little chunks.

949
01:24:35,250 --> 01:24:44,714
But if you added it all together and if I had all the time in the world, I could start
with nothing to like mix and mastered that's recording, writing, everything in about

950
01:24:44,714 --> 01:24:46,095
seven, eight hours.

951
01:24:46,922 --> 01:24:53,828
Okay, do you find yourself writing the song completely before you hit record anywhere?

952
01:24:53,982 --> 01:24:57,012
Or are you kind of putting it together?

953
01:24:57,902 --> 01:24:59,269
Okay.

954
01:24:59,269 --> 01:25:01,597
interwoven in the process.

955
01:25:01,772 --> 01:25:14,508
I think I have this impression of like songwriting teachers as they sit down at the piano
or guitar and they get the whole entire thing together.

956
01:25:14,668 --> 01:25:18,820
And that's writing a song where for me it's become more of a blend.

957
01:25:18,820 --> 01:25:22,072
You know, it used to be when I was younger and that's all I had.

958
01:25:22,072 --> 01:25:27,014
You had to write the whole song, but I don't know if I'm...

959
01:25:27,212 --> 01:25:28,583
copping out sometimes.

960
01:25:28,583 --> 01:25:36,962
I think of it almost like where I want to like hear something come together but so I'm
going to kind of skip the writing phase and do it as I go.

961
01:25:38,653 --> 01:25:44,292
So I mean, I think there are people who write a song and then they go and they record it,
right?

962
01:25:44,292 --> 01:25:45,506
Like, I'm not really...

963
01:25:45,506 --> 01:25:50,924
sometimes for me still but probably more often I'm the other way.

964
01:25:51,109 --> 01:25:54,771
to me, think my DAW, like I'm a logic person.

965
01:25:55,772 --> 01:25:59,304
So like to me, like it's almost part of the writing process, right?

966
01:25:59,304 --> 01:26:10,431
Like sometimes I'm inspired by a sound or I'm inspired by a beat or I can't play and sing
what I hear in my head at the same time.

967
01:26:10,431 --> 01:26:14,223
So I record the keyboard part first.

968
01:26:14,587 --> 01:26:17,298
And then I sort of work out the melody on top of that, right?

969
01:26:17,298 --> 01:26:31,312
So, because I find if I'm trying to work out a melody as I'm playing, everything is on
grid because I'm, you know, the downbeats are extra heavy and like everything's kind of as

970
01:26:31,312 --> 01:26:33,512
I'm clomping out these parts.

971
01:26:35,033 --> 01:26:40,414
I think for me, the recording process is part of the writing process.

972
01:26:43,399 --> 01:26:51,721
But some people would say, well, but then you kind of paint yourself into a corner
sometimes because what if you want to change the song, then you have to go back and change

973
01:26:51,721 --> 01:26:52,999
all of the production.

974
01:26:52,999 --> 01:26:55,742
And I think that's a valid point.

975
01:26:56,383 --> 01:27:01,844
But I'm also not a big go back and change everything person.

976
01:27:01,844 --> 01:27:08,746
Like I trust my instinct enough to make decisions in the process, and I'm not afraid to
commit.

977
01:27:09,566 --> 01:27:12,419
We were talking when you were on my.

978
01:27:12,523 --> 01:27:22,900
Pro writer group the other day You were talking about having a four track cassette
recorder where you used to take three tracks and bounce them to one Like we really had to

979
01:27:22,900 --> 01:27:31,835
commit because I used to do that too Where you could have more parts you just have to
bounce them and then you couldn't unbounce them back in the day, right?

980
01:27:31,835 --> 01:27:35,517
So kids out there watching this we couldn't just undo

981
01:27:35,980 --> 01:27:42,510
No, you were really, you were really jumping off a ledge with that move.

982
01:27:43,133 --> 01:27:53,102
But I think for me, I'm not afraid to commit to certain things and I can always go back
and change things if I want to, but a lot of times it's, like I said, it's kind of a

983
01:27:53,102 --> 01:28:00,639
learning experience and am I out anything if this song doesn't end up being the best thing
in the world?

984
01:28:00,639 --> 01:28:01,400
No.

985
01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:03,201
But again, like who am I to judge that though?

986
01:28:03,201 --> 01:28:07,265
Sometimes the songs I don't like, people really respond to.

987
01:28:07,706 --> 01:28:08,683
You know what I mean?

988
01:28:08,683 --> 01:28:09,763
So.

989
01:28:09,851 --> 01:28:16,194
Yeah, I think the moral of the story is for me, it's all kind of the process, like
recording, writing.

990
01:28:16,194 --> 01:28:19,286
And I think that's pretty common these days, to be honest.

991
01:28:19,286 --> 01:28:28,100
I even think in Nashville, a lot of times you have a lyric person, you have a melody
person, and then you have a track guy or girl.

992
01:28:28,100 --> 01:28:32,982
More guys, more girls need to get into production, but that's another topic.

993
01:28:32,982 --> 01:28:33,882
But...

994
01:28:35,376 --> 01:28:43,430
I think even there you're walking out of a session with a semi-produced work tape at the
end of the day, right?

995
01:28:43,430 --> 01:28:54,338
Because writers in Nashville are writing one to two songs every single day, maybe one or
two sessions, and they can knock out, go from nothing to a work tape demo in three or four

996
01:28:54,338 --> 01:28:55,239
hours.

997
01:28:55,239 --> 01:29:02,163
So like, I think that's just part of our musical world now is the technology.

998
01:29:04,258 --> 01:29:14,437
Yeah, I think there's a part of me that feels like that it has to be, you know, to be a
songwriter.

999
01:29:14,437 --> 01:29:19,951
You do it all like in that one sitting with one instrument and then you move on to
recording.

1000
01:29:19,951 --> 01:29:28,174
And I think there's value to that because you kind of have the bigger picture in mind a
little bit and you can...

1001
01:29:28,174 --> 01:29:29,994
can have a sense of where it's going.

1002
01:29:29,994 --> 01:29:36,314
yeah, I'm in the same way where the sound might inspire me and that triggers the emotion
that gets things going.

1003
01:29:36,774 --> 01:29:42,994
And a lot of times if I'm even making songs on my guitar, the guitar winds up coming out.

1004
01:29:42,994 --> 01:29:46,754
It's not a guitar song, but it might've been what got me going.

1005
01:29:47,714 --> 01:29:50,234
But I guess it just goes to show this.

1006
01:29:50,234 --> 01:29:52,394
Like you said, there's tools, not rules.

1007
01:29:52,994 --> 01:29:57,114
And it doesn't really matter at the end of the day how you got there.

1008
01:29:58,151 --> 01:30:01,854
I mean, what matters is, is the song strong though, right?

1009
01:30:01,854 --> 01:30:05,411
Like there is a such thing as relying too much on production.

1010
01:30:05,411 --> 01:30:13,014
I think for me, when I am using production tools, I'm still focused on the core of the
song.

1011
01:30:13,014 --> 01:30:17,588
I'm still focused on the chords, the melody and the lyric.

1012
01:30:17,689 --> 01:30:20,531
And then I could always change the production, right?

1013
01:30:20,531 --> 01:30:24,334
But in that process, I'm still writing the...

1014
01:30:25,404 --> 01:30:28,029
the foundation of the song is there.

1015
01:30:28,029 --> 01:30:33,578
So it would still work just as an instrument and vocal.

1016
01:30:34,218 --> 01:30:40,690
It's often a good test of a song, if it holds up when you strip it down.

1017
01:30:41,605 --> 01:30:43,438
I've heard that called the campfire test.

1018
01:30:43,438 --> 01:30:46,422
Like, could somebody sing it around a campfire?

1019
01:30:46,422 --> 01:30:52,851
Like, or just if it if it's a recording, just take the vocal and and one part and does it
still work?

1020
01:30:53,623 --> 01:30:55,944
Yeah, but I don't think that means...

1021
01:30:56,205 --> 01:31:07,982
there's some music that is really effective with all its production and that might not
hold up, you you can't play a lot of like some of the EDM stuff we were talking about, but

1022
01:31:07,982 --> 01:31:12,214
they are great songs on their own with that whole...

1023
01:31:13,375 --> 01:31:17,598
it's the whole package rather than just this more stripped down thing.

1024
01:31:17,904 --> 01:31:18,824
Right.

1025
01:31:19,645 --> 01:31:21,525
Yeah, it depends on the genre.

1026
01:31:21,525 --> 01:31:32,428
But there are production heavy genres where you couldn't do the campfire test unless you
had a Bluetooth speaker out by the campfire and then you can just play the whole thing.

1027
01:31:32,428 --> 01:31:33,370
you go.

1028
01:31:35,493 --> 01:31:41,432
Do you find yourself getting stuck from time to time, challenges?

1029
01:31:41,432 --> 01:31:44,501
How do you overcome those moments?

1030
01:31:47,337 --> 01:31:50,900
you know, I, my whole life revolves around songwriting.

1031
01:31:50,900 --> 01:31:56,766
like in some, some ways I'm either teaching or thinking about this stuff, like nonstop.

1032
01:31:56,766 --> 01:32:07,906
I would say that I don't get writer's block in the sense that I don't know like how to
write or I don't know where I'm going or like, I can pretty much write from anything, but

1033
01:32:07,906 --> 01:32:11,439
I find as a singer songwriter.

1034
01:32:12,689 --> 01:32:17,822
I sometimes don't know what I want to say as an artist.

1035
01:32:18,183 --> 01:32:19,094
Does that make sense?

1036
01:32:19,094 --> 01:32:22,126
Like, cause I'm in my, I'm in my upper forties.

1037
01:32:22,126 --> 01:32:28,470
So like, I'm probably not going to write love songs about finding relationships, right?

1038
01:32:28,470 --> 01:32:30,422
Like I'm in a long-term relationship.

1039
01:32:30,422 --> 01:32:31,893
My songs aren't going to be about that.

1040
01:32:31,893 --> 01:32:34,735
I'm not going to write about young people stuff.

1041
01:32:34,735 --> 01:32:40,839
My stuff doesn't have the slang like some younger people would have.

1042
01:32:41,551 --> 01:32:45,632
So then I start thinking about, well, do I write about spiritual things?

1043
01:32:45,632 --> 01:32:47,683
Do I write about my hometown?

1044
01:32:47,683 --> 01:32:55,455
Do I write about struggles that you go through in your 40s and like, you know, are people
interested?

1045
01:32:55,455 --> 01:33:03,117
like for me, it's less about how do I turn that into a song, but more of like, what do I
really want to say?

1046
01:33:03,858 --> 01:33:04,728
If that makes sense.

1047
01:33:04,728 --> 01:33:07,939
So I think that's my struggle a lot is like.

1048
01:33:08,401 --> 01:33:14,180
And I've written so many songs that I sometimes feel like I've been there, done that.

1049
01:33:15,731 --> 01:33:17,766
I don't know if that makes sense.

1050
01:33:18,144 --> 01:33:19,694
Of course it does, yeah.

1051
01:33:20,136 --> 01:33:26,622
I guess that's part of the blockage a lot of people have.

1052
01:33:26,663 --> 01:33:35,992
You understand technically what to do, what tools you can employ, but still you have to
decide what you're gonna make.

1053
01:33:35,992 --> 01:33:38,244
And that's always challenging.

1054
01:33:38,244 --> 01:33:39,065
What do you wanna say?

1055
01:33:39,065 --> 01:33:40,416
What do you have?

1056
01:33:42,048 --> 01:33:56,173
It's just another challenge in this whole puzzle of doing this where I guess just because
you have the technical know-how and you can just construct it, like, what are we going to

1057
01:33:56,173 --> 01:33:57,564
build today?

1058
01:33:58,624 --> 01:34:00,025
What would be meaningful?

1059
01:34:00,025 --> 01:34:02,966
What would feel good right now?

1060
01:34:03,013 --> 01:34:16,252
But then I play these games with myself, and you wrote a whole book on this, but I made
like 200, like I just got no cards, and I went through and I found like 200 songs that I

1061
01:34:16,252 --> 01:34:18,895
like, and I wrote down topics.

1062
01:34:19,935 --> 01:34:30,470
Kind of high-level topics not like the actual detail, but I wrote down all these topics
that I know work in song So sometimes I'll play these prompt games with myself in order to

1063
01:34:30,470 --> 01:34:32,881
write Like this card.

1064
01:34:32,881 --> 01:34:45,566
I just pulled says you can't break me Well now I could run with that and I know exactly
how to turn that into a song And is that my story though, right?

1065
01:34:45,566 --> 01:34:47,747
So that's why I think as a writer

1066
01:34:48,549 --> 01:34:58,868
I don't necessarily get blocked, but when I think of myself as a singer songwriter, it's
like, who am I as Chad?

1067
01:34:58,969 --> 01:35:01,611
What does Chad want to sing about?

1068
01:35:02,392 --> 01:35:06,876
So it's like this weird, subtle meta thing that happens.

1069
01:35:06,876 --> 01:35:11,150
But if you give me a prompt, I can go to town on it, right?

1070
01:35:11,150 --> 01:35:14,323
Like this one says, what happens when people break up?

1071
01:35:14,323 --> 01:35:18,801
Like I have like 200 topics that I, you know, just pull one and go.

1072
01:35:18,801 --> 01:35:21,584
that it corresponded to on those.

1073
01:35:22,627 --> 01:35:24,391
So you just write.

1074
01:35:24,391 --> 01:35:27,348
are just, you know, this one is like quiet night.

1075
01:35:27,348 --> 01:35:28,240
So it's very simple.

1076
01:35:28,240 --> 01:35:30,104
Yeah.

1077
01:35:30,104 --> 01:35:32,587
Right, but that's informative.

1078
01:35:32,587 --> 01:35:37,894
Quiet Night, I'm gonna leave the heavy metal guitar solo out of that one.

1079
01:35:38,376 --> 01:35:39,017
Right?

1080
01:35:39,017 --> 01:35:42,721
So it's not even a thought, it's not even on the menu of choices.

1081
01:35:42,833 --> 01:35:44,867
And then you think, why is it quiet?

1082
01:35:45,588 --> 01:35:46,647
Mm-hmm.

1083
01:35:46,647 --> 01:35:50,379
because life has been really noisy and I just need a break?

1084
01:35:50,379 --> 01:35:53,710
Or is it quiet because now all of a sudden I'm alone?

1085
01:35:53,791 --> 01:35:56,952
Is it quiet because I left somebody?

1086
01:35:57,427 --> 01:36:02,735
Is it a quiet night because kids or my pets or my partner aren't here?

1087
01:36:03,735 --> 01:36:06,157
Is it a quiet night in a city?

1088
01:36:06,157 --> 01:36:08,087
Is it a quiet night in the country?

1089
01:36:08,087 --> 01:36:10,379
Is it a quiet night on a ship?

1090
01:36:10,379 --> 01:36:13,980
Like, you have all of these things that you can think about.

1091
01:36:13,980 --> 01:36:15,721
And then start thinking about the opposite.

1092
01:36:15,721 --> 01:36:17,253
if it's not a quiet night, what is it?

1093
01:36:17,253 --> 01:36:19,887
It's a crazy day or it's a loud day.

1094
01:36:19,887 --> 01:36:23,413
So then you think like, you know, well, how could I play on that?

1095
01:36:23,413 --> 01:36:26,977
Like, what is the story where I can sort of play on opposites?

1096
01:36:27,138 --> 01:36:28,019
Right?

1097
01:36:28,019 --> 01:36:36,679
And then usually what I would do is I would start free writing and I would write from
scent my senses So I'd write sight sound taste touch smell.

1098
01:36:36,679 --> 01:36:50,399
How do things move and then I would go write for like five or ten minutes of that and then
I'd go back and pull out interesting phrases interesting lines and See if any of those

1099
01:36:50,399 --> 01:36:57,745
actually are a better title than quiet night like maybe the song isn't actually about
quiet night maybe it's something that that just

1100
01:36:57,745 --> 01:36:59,715
got inspired by.

1101
01:37:00,398 --> 01:37:10,818
But if you write from your senses, that gives you really good verse material because a lot
of times that's a time, a place or a person, you know, that you're writing about.

1102
01:37:10,818 --> 01:37:14,912
So that gives you lots of information to set the scene.

1103
01:37:14,912 --> 01:37:18,094
And then you can figure out what the emotion is for the chorus.

1104
01:37:19,598 --> 01:37:20,598
Right.

1105
01:37:20,938 --> 01:37:22,138
That's great.

1106
01:37:22,158 --> 01:37:27,038
Using that sensory imagery is powerful because that's how we experience the world.

1107
01:37:27,038 --> 01:37:29,838
I go over this in my English classes all the time.

1108
01:37:29,858 --> 01:37:32,018
I just get them to think about like all the...

1109
01:37:32,018 --> 01:37:33,578
just sitting in this room.

1110
01:37:33,578 --> 01:37:34,718
What are the things you see?

1111
01:37:34,718 --> 01:37:35,657
What are the things you hear?

1112
01:37:35,657 --> 01:37:36,958
What are the things you smell?

1113
01:37:36,958 --> 01:37:37,658
And all that.

1114
01:37:37,658 --> 01:37:44,978
we break it down and it allows you to say things in an interesting way.

1115
01:37:45,498 --> 01:37:48,778
Like, oh, that's what it felt like to be there.

1116
01:37:49,206 --> 01:37:57,152
That's a much different approach than just kind of telling people what it was like.

1117
01:37:57,152 --> 01:37:57,943
It was sad.

1118
01:37:57,943 --> 01:38:02,056
was quiet.

1119
01:38:02,056 --> 01:38:09,861
You hear the click of a second hand on the clock or something like that that tells you
it's quiet.

1120
01:38:09,922 --> 01:38:16,106
That might even be a sound you use in your music to help reflect that.

1121
01:38:16,166 --> 01:38:16,697
or like

1122
01:38:16,697 --> 01:38:23,748
I see how this gets the brain going and like, okay, yeah, now we got some ideas that we
can throw at the wall and see what works.

1123
01:38:24,701 --> 01:38:25,392
Totally.

1124
01:38:25,392 --> 01:38:31,956
And like, as you're talking, like to me, I'm picturing like a rain soaked street with like
fog, right?

1125
01:38:31,956 --> 01:38:35,279
Like quiet night, nobody's around.

1126
01:38:35,279 --> 01:38:38,701
But then start thinking of like, well, how do I turn that into an emotion then?

1127
01:38:38,701 --> 01:38:40,532
Like what, who are the characters?

1128
01:38:40,532 --> 01:38:44,035
What would the singer be talking about?

1129
01:38:44,035 --> 01:38:45,106
Who is the singer?

1130
01:38:45,106 --> 01:38:46,686
Who are they singing to?

1131
01:38:47,577 --> 01:38:49,638
Is the singer even in the story, right?

1132
01:38:49,638 --> 01:38:58,112
Maybe the singer's a narrator talking about he, she, they, we, or not we, but he, she,
they, it.

1133
01:38:59,233 --> 01:39:04,255
Or is it first person, where it's first person direct address, where it's.

1134
01:39:04,421 --> 01:39:05,912
me and you, right?

1135
01:39:05,912 --> 01:39:14,335
Or is it first person narrative where the singer is talking about me and him instead of me
and you.

1136
01:39:14,335 --> 01:39:19,918
It's about me and him where the listener is kind of an observer and listening to the
story.

1137
01:39:20,278 --> 01:39:20,918
You know what I mean?

1138
01:39:20,918 --> 01:39:31,243
So there's all kinds of decisions that you make and it's usually a good idea to take your
song and try it in in different points of view to see what feels the best too.

1139
01:39:31,820 --> 01:39:32,612
Hmm.

1140
01:39:33,206 --> 01:39:34,079
Right.

1141
01:39:34,232 --> 01:39:34,933
right?

1142
01:39:34,933 --> 01:39:36,004
Is it present tense?

1143
01:39:36,004 --> 01:39:36,985
Is it past tense?

1144
01:39:36,985 --> 01:39:38,636
Is it future tense?

1145
01:39:38,997 --> 01:39:40,518
You know, when is this happening?

1146
01:39:40,518 --> 01:39:45,482
What is the vantage point of where we're looking at the story?

1147
01:39:45,763 --> 01:39:50,608
And do we start the song about what happened in the past?

1148
01:39:50,608 --> 01:39:52,760
Or do we start the song about what's happening right now?

1149
01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:58,514
Or do we start the song about what we wish was happening and then go somewhere else in the
rest of the song?

1150
01:40:00,332 --> 01:40:01,202
Hmm.

1151
01:40:01,463 --> 01:40:06,208
Yeah, and just having all those options before you.

1152
01:40:06,809 --> 01:40:08,350
Definitely helpful.

1153
01:40:09,272 --> 01:40:14,957
Overwhelming at times, I suppose, but like, make those decisions, like you said, commit.

1154
01:40:15,934 --> 01:40:16,634
see where it goes.

1155
01:40:16,634 --> 01:40:19,176
You can't edit anything until you have something to edit.

1156
01:40:19,176 --> 01:40:24,329
So if you get into that mindset of, this good enough?

1157
01:40:24,329 --> 01:40:26,721
Is this what I want to do too early?

1158
01:40:26,721 --> 01:40:30,764
The answer is always going to be no, because you don't have anything yet.

1159
01:40:30,764 --> 01:40:36,267
And then you're in the cycle of self-doubt and whatever.

1160
01:40:36,427 --> 01:40:41,150
But if you can have something that you can then work with...

1161
01:40:41,945 --> 01:40:48,161
Or what if you spend three hours just trying to get like line two perfect, right?

1162
01:40:48,161 --> 01:40:54,025
Like you've got a killer first line and you're like, I just got to really nail this line
number two.

1163
01:40:54,186 --> 01:40:57,068
And you spend three hours on line number two.

1164
01:40:57,109 --> 01:41:03,994
And then later you get down to verse two and you think, my song's actually about this
other thing.

1165
01:41:05,265 --> 01:41:08,946
Are you actually gonna go back and change that line too?

1166
01:41:08,946 --> 01:41:12,437
Probably not because you're like, spent three hours trying to figure out line two.

1167
01:41:12,437 --> 01:41:22,961
So you might throw away a better idea because you wasted time or you're just gonna have
wasted all that time when you could have just written the song and said, this line two

1168
01:41:22,961 --> 01:41:25,021
needs work, but I'm gonna finish it.

1169
01:41:25,021 --> 01:41:26,842
And then I can come back to it.

1170
01:41:27,062 --> 01:41:30,283
Pat Patterson says, you're not gonna forget that it sucks.

1171
01:41:31,055 --> 01:41:36,178
So like, you just have to keep writing.

1172
01:41:36,475 --> 01:41:42,652
And I love what you just said of like, if you don't have something to edit, like of course
it's not good enough because there's nothing there.

1173
01:41:42,652 --> 01:41:49,786
And I think that's the point is, how do you know until it's done?

1174
01:41:50,326 --> 01:41:58,481
So I think that's what's important to think about is you have a creation side of the
process, and then you have like a refinement side of the process.

1175
01:41:58,481 --> 01:42:01,995
and you don't want to invite that critic in too soon.

1176
01:42:02,016 --> 01:42:06,542
That'd be like inviting a restaurant critic into the kitchen before it's done cooking,
right?

1177
01:42:06,542 --> 01:42:11,869
Like, do you want the restaurant critic over the chef's shoulder being like, no, you
shouldn't do that, don't do that.

1178
01:42:11,869 --> 01:42:15,974
It's like, you want them to review the meal, not the process.

1179
01:42:16,728 --> 01:42:17,459
That's funny.

1180
01:42:17,459 --> 01:42:19,921
I have my own metaphor I come back to.

1181
01:42:19,921 --> 01:42:22,222
It's like a kid playing Little League.

1182
01:42:22,724 --> 01:42:26,367
It's like your baby ideas were like a kid first day in Little League.

1183
01:42:26,367 --> 01:42:34,664
And if you're mad that he's not Mickey Manil or Derek Jeter, come on, that's totally
unreasonable.

1184
01:42:34,664 --> 01:42:43,141
But we do that with our ideas all the time, where we invite that restaurant critic in
before we've even written the menu.

1185
01:42:44,401 --> 01:42:53,396
I think too, I think a lot about this, but I think we get into the mindset of thinking
that there's a right way and a wrong way to do things.

1186
01:42:53,597 --> 01:43:03,082
And I think we sometimes have an image in our head and we try to match what is with what
we want.

1187
01:43:03,262 --> 01:43:04,863
And sometimes there's a disconnect.

1188
01:43:04,863 --> 01:43:10,927
And I think sometimes you have to try to see what's there and see what the potential is.

1189
01:43:12,408 --> 01:43:18,954
and serve the song instead of serving your idea of the song.

1190
01:43:19,175 --> 01:43:30,206
If that may, I don't know if that clicks at all, but if you can disconnect the expectation
a little bit and just see what kind of develops, I think that's powerful.

1191
01:43:31,218 --> 01:43:39,282
I do that a lot by just running tape or recording would be the more modern way to say it.

1192
01:43:39,282 --> 01:43:44,284
But just let it play and then play along with it, try things out.

1193
01:43:44,284 --> 01:43:51,727
I might have that verse looping for 20 minutes and I'm just singing all kinds of stuff and
the song is going on and on.

1194
01:43:52,568 --> 01:43:57,290
And it's often in like the listening back to that.

1195
01:43:57,570 --> 01:44:00,935
where I say, that's something that's kind of nice.

1196
01:44:00,935 --> 01:44:01,726
you.

1197
01:44:02,368 --> 01:44:10,680
You think you know what you want sometimes, and if you get too married to that, you miss
something cool that happens along the way.

1198
01:44:11,281 --> 01:44:18,292
It's a nice thing about collaborating with people because sometimes they'll be like, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, go back to that, you know, do that again or something like that.

1199
01:44:18,292 --> 01:44:29,766
But if you don't have that way of thinking, it's easy to miss something really good
because you have some idealized idea that doesn't even exist yet.

1200
01:44:30,171 --> 01:44:34,575
Yeah, like I relate to that a lot too.

1201
01:44:34,575 --> 01:44:44,284
And what I was thinking about as you were saying, like recording everything, putting it
away for like a day or two and then coming back when you're in a different head space can

1202
01:44:44,284 --> 01:44:50,129
sometimes get you in a better place to kind of look at it objectively.

1203
01:44:50,630 --> 01:44:52,191
So you're not.

1204
01:44:52,485 --> 01:44:58,672
you're not comparing it to this perfect image that you've created, but you're going back
and hearing it for what it is.

1205
01:44:58,672 --> 01:45:04,358
And sometimes things will stand out in a different way, and you'll be like, that's really
cool.

1206
01:45:04,358 --> 01:45:06,650
Like, I should go down this path.

1207
01:45:07,340 --> 01:45:14,708
Yeah, a little time away is valuable because we are so close to our ideas and we never get
to hear them for the first time.

1208
01:45:14,708 --> 01:45:18,401
So we don't know what those initial impacts are.

1209
01:45:18,401 --> 01:45:23,345
Those, like you said about listening to a song you've never heard and then stopping in and
trying to guess.

1210
01:45:23,345 --> 01:45:25,588
Like we don't get to do that with our songs.

1211
01:45:26,350 --> 01:45:27,971
We know it too well.

1212
01:45:27,991 --> 01:45:30,413
But a little space.

1213
01:45:31,110 --> 01:45:38,218
something you forget a little you you're not in the same way of thinking at least and then
that can be pretty valuable.

1214
01:45:39,003 --> 01:45:45,850
I also think we get into a mindset of like scarcity, right?

1215
01:45:46,395 --> 01:45:50,136
We sometimes think that we have a finite number of ideas.

1216
01:45:50,177 --> 01:46:01,211
So some people will make their idea like the golden egg and like that's the song and I'm
going to work on this song for a year because I'm trying to, you know, make a plane fly

1217
01:46:01,211 --> 01:46:03,102
that probably shouldn't.

1218
01:46:03,102 --> 01:46:04,082
Right.

1219
01:46:04,183 --> 01:46:08,004
And I think people miss the opportunity to expand.

1220
01:46:08,004 --> 01:46:14,807
You learn more by writing more, not by writing better, because you don't write better
without writing more.

1221
01:46:15,025 --> 01:46:15,685
You know what I mean?

1222
01:46:15,685 --> 01:46:21,497
Like, how do you know what's good if you don't have anything to compare it to?

1223
01:46:21,978 --> 01:46:29,141
And it's not good to compare it to other songwriters, and it's not good to compare it to
other people you look up to because...

1224
01:46:31,195 --> 01:46:32,822
I mean, it's a double-edged sword, right?

1225
01:46:32,822 --> 01:46:38,024
Like, you want to learn from them, but you don't want to use that as the...

1226
01:46:38,705 --> 01:46:44,007
like, as the bar, necessarily, because you're at a different place.

1227
01:46:44,401 --> 01:46:54,418
You you don't know if you're, you're idle that you've been looking up to, like, is that
their 5,000th song that they've written and you're like on song 10?

1228
01:46:54,418 --> 01:46:55,139
You know what I mean?

1229
01:46:55,139 --> 01:47:00,603
Like, they're, could be completely at a different experience level.

1230
01:47:00,795 --> 01:47:03,719
So you're probably not gonna kick out that level of stuff.

1231
01:47:03,719 --> 01:47:12,690
And a lot of times I think we'd be surprised at how often songs we love, the people that
made them, it's not their favorite song, right?

1232
01:47:12,690 --> 01:47:17,726
Like sometimes they have no idea that that's the song that's gonna get them somewhere.

1233
01:47:17,726 --> 01:47:20,158
Like it's such a crap shoot.

1234
01:47:22,227 --> 01:47:23,817
Yeah, the comparison thing's tough.

1235
01:47:23,817 --> 01:47:36,494
You're listening to the final product, the finished product of somebody that's had lots of
time to work with it, possibly with the team of the world's best at every little job they

1236
01:47:36,494 --> 01:47:39,315
do, and you're trying to do all of those jobs at once.

1237
01:47:40,116 --> 01:47:43,638
And additionally, you're not them and they're not you.

1238
01:47:43,638 --> 01:47:50,922
And I think therein lies the magic about why it's interesting to hear music from different
people is because everybody's different.

1239
01:47:51,390 --> 01:48:00,140
So leaning into that and the comparison thing can really rob you of the enjoyment of who
you are as an individual.

1240
01:48:00,925 --> 01:48:02,966
Do you run into that a lot with production?

1241
01:48:02,966 --> 01:48:14,650
Like I get into like mixing my own stuff and like I get into this mental game of like, why
doesn't my mix sound like the songs that I like or like, you know.

1242
01:48:14,650 --> 01:48:15,870
mean, not just production.

1243
01:48:15,870 --> 01:48:19,610
mean, every single aspect of the whole entire process.

1244
01:48:20,290 --> 01:48:25,750
Even when I listen to other podcasts, I'm like, if I can't do that, they're better than
me.

1245
01:48:25,750 --> 01:48:30,110
All these things, I think...

1246
01:48:31,370 --> 01:48:34,013
I mean, I'm not even going to limit that to music.

1247
01:48:34,013 --> 01:48:46,684
Probably every aspect of my life and my personality and my looks and you name it is
somehow I can if I start comparing enough, I'll get insecure about it real quick.

1248
01:48:47,143 --> 01:48:48,083
Yeah.

1249
01:48:48,444 --> 01:48:51,135
I mean, it's hard game that we all play though, right?

1250
01:48:51,135 --> 01:48:55,598
Like we are the best at being ourselves, but we always try to be somebody we're not.

1251
01:48:55,598 --> 01:49:07,835
But I think for me personally, when I try to emulate someone else or if I try to copy a
trend, it's always sort of a generic impersonation of it.

1252
01:49:07,835 --> 01:49:14,858
It's never very authentic, like the stuff that I do just on my own.

1253
01:49:14,879 --> 01:49:15,779
Like...

1254
01:49:15,879 --> 01:49:28,463
There's an authenticity when I write my own songs and when I sing my own songs and
sometimes I'm like, my gosh, my songs feel like they all sound the same, which they

1255
01:49:28,463 --> 01:49:29,464
probably sound similar.

1256
01:49:29,464 --> 01:49:31,206
Like people have styles, right?

1257
01:49:31,206 --> 01:49:37,903
Like Taylor Swift sounds like Taylor Swift, but like I have to remind myself that.

1258
01:49:38,575 --> 01:49:48,824
You know the reason why people try to be those other people is because they've somehow
gotten to like a commercial success But like at one point no one would have cared what

1259
01:49:48,824 --> 01:49:51,666
taylor swift was doing before she was really famous, right?

1260
01:49:51,666 --> 01:50:03,136
So I I kind of think of myself as like If for some reason my stuff ever takes off, which
it probably won't because I don't do marketing and you know, but I love writing songs To

1261
01:50:03,136 --> 01:50:07,219
me, it's like nobody's better at being chad than than chad

1262
01:50:07,569 --> 01:50:14,148
And I think that's how you kind of have to look at it is like, how can I be myself and
make music that moves me?

1263
01:50:14,148 --> 01:50:23,320
Because if it moves me, there's probably millions of other people that it moves to because
I can't be the only one that has my same taste, right?

1264
01:50:23,320 --> 01:50:25,862
Like I don't think I'm that unique.

1265
01:50:27,414 --> 01:50:28,335
I think you're right.

1266
01:50:28,335 --> 01:50:44,289
You got to just lean into who you are and how you do things and it's tough, know, there's
because so many people are so talented in so many ways but probably when you're comparing

1267
01:50:44,289 --> 01:50:53,128
yourself to other people too you're kind of focusing in on one aspect rather than the full
picture so

1268
01:50:54,350 --> 01:51:03,406
you know that old expression if we all put our problems on the table and we're going to
trade we probably just pick our own problems right back up.

1269
01:51:03,406 --> 01:51:17,086
think it applies to this a little bit where that's the gift that's like kind of our
superpowers that we are individuals and that's why it's interesting that's why it's

1270
01:51:17,410 --> 01:51:19,793
You know, we don't have enough songs yet.

1271
01:51:19,793 --> 01:51:22,477
It's not like we are, because we got enough, right?

1272
01:51:22,477 --> 01:51:32,309
We don't need anything else, but it's still interesting because there's still new people
to share what they've got and to connect with us in a way that we haven't been connected

1273
01:51:32,309 --> 01:51:33,389
with before.

1274
01:51:33,873 --> 01:51:40,487
Yeah, I mean, think of how many love songs have been written over the years, like, like
billions.

1275
01:51:40,728 --> 01:51:48,233
But yet somebody still can come out with something that just knocks the public socks off
and just like it outshines everything else.

1276
01:51:48,233 --> 01:51:50,995
Like, it's possible.

1277
01:51:51,266 --> 01:51:54,876
Hmm, someone came out and said it in their own weird way.

1278
01:51:55,687 --> 01:51:56,588
Right.

1279
01:51:57,335 --> 01:52:00,537
And they say it in a way that it's like, why didn't I think of that?

1280
01:52:00,546 --> 01:52:01,366
Hmm.

1281
01:52:01,847 --> 01:52:02,787
Right.

1282
01:52:02,988 --> 01:52:05,460
Or like, I've kind of almost always thought of that.

1283
01:52:05,460 --> 01:52:08,092
I just never had a way of saying it.

1284
01:52:09,294 --> 01:52:09,773
Yeah.

1285
01:52:09,773 --> 01:52:10,846
exactly.

1286
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:19,703
I'm keeping you long time but it's because I'm really enjoying talking to you.

1287
01:52:19,964 --> 01:52:22,405
I've wanna yeah, it's been great.

1288
01:52:22,405 --> 01:52:27,749
It's been I'm really glad we did the thing last Saturday with the at home songwriting
group.

1289
01:52:27,749 --> 01:52:31,172
The that's I'm I'm not saying the name exactly right.

1290
01:52:31,172 --> 01:52:39,417
It's the pro at at home songwriting pro pro sorry songwriting pro writing group.

1291
01:52:39,428 --> 01:52:41,579
at home songwriting pro writer group.

1292
01:52:41,579 --> 01:52:46,132
So the idea of the group is you can write like a pro at home.

1293
01:52:46,132 --> 01:52:57,340
So the name doesn't mean that it's pro writers that are in the group, but it's people that
want to write at a pro level, but maybe aren't there yet, or they maybe don't want to

1294
01:52:57,340 --> 01:53:00,542
chase it like a pro would, like they don't want to move to Nashville.

1295
01:53:00,542 --> 01:53:01,723
They don't want to.

1296
01:53:01,805 --> 01:53:06,757
be a staff writer, they don't want to do that stuff, but they want to write pro level
songs.

1297
01:53:06,757 --> 01:53:11,089
And what the group is is really it's a membership.

1298
01:53:11,089 --> 01:53:14,701
So it's a premium membership, but I teach them each week.

1299
01:53:14,701 --> 01:53:19,033
So we have a one hour, about hour and a half class or a workshop.

1300
01:53:19,033 --> 01:53:20,384
It's online.

1301
01:53:20,384 --> 01:53:25,666
We talk about a songwriting topic and we learn different tools, techniques.

1302
01:53:25,666 --> 01:53:28,687
And then each week I give them assignments.

1303
01:53:28,768 --> 01:53:32,169
So they do writing exercises, writing assignments,

1304
01:53:32,229 --> 01:53:43,211
And then there's a community where they post their work and then they comment on each
other's and then I also give feedback and encouragement and really just kind of connect

1305
01:53:43,211 --> 01:53:55,974
with everybody and and it's been a lot of fun and I think it's been Really helpful for the
people involved because I see the growth From the time when people come into it and then

1306
01:53:55,974 --> 01:54:01,215
we practice these things we practice these different tools So when it comes time to write

1307
01:54:01,671 --> 01:54:07,716
they have this toolbox that they can reach into and write the songs that they want to
write.

1308
01:54:07,716 --> 01:54:15,521
And I'm all about helping them find what's their thing and then how do they apply the
tools to do what they want to do.

1309
01:54:15,521 --> 01:54:22,166
So we have country, we have folk, we have some kind of progressive rock people that are in
the group.

1310
01:54:22,166 --> 01:54:23,407
We have...

1311
01:54:24,292 --> 01:54:26,896
Some Christian artists that are in the group.

1312
01:54:26,896 --> 01:54:28,207
We have some dance artists.

1313
01:54:28,207 --> 01:54:33,424
Like it's kind of all over the board, but it's really about songwriting and song craft.

1314
01:54:33,424 --> 01:54:35,426
So it's a lot of fun.

1315
01:54:35,990 --> 01:54:46,953
I had a lot of fun in the last weekend and it seems like there's a lot of different
perspectives and angles coming at it, different levels and all in all though the thing

1316
01:54:46,953 --> 01:54:59,897
that was so nice was just this enthusiasm, this excitement and that's, you know, I left
the meeting myself feeling inspired and I wanted to make music and that alone is just a

1317
01:54:59,897 --> 01:55:01,397
really huge gift.

1318
01:55:01,397 --> 01:55:04,998
mean, for me, like anything inspires me, it's...

1319
01:55:05,870 --> 01:55:08,636
precious and valuable, so I soak it up.

1320
01:55:08,698 --> 01:55:11,364
And seems like you got a really cool thing going there.

1321
01:55:11,553 --> 01:55:20,899
You know, as a teacher, and you might find this too, that, you know, sometimes it's not
about what we're teaching, but it's about how you connect with the other people.

1322
01:55:20,899 --> 01:55:34,467
And I think I can't understate what the community does when you know that you have a group
of people that are sort of in your corner and like your cheerleader and

1323
01:55:34,919 --> 01:55:37,360
they're supporting the songs that you're uploading.

1324
01:55:37,360 --> 01:55:42,883
We're getting together on a weekly basis to nerd out on this type of stuff, right?

1325
01:55:42,883 --> 01:55:54,049
Like, I mean, we go an hour, hour and a half, but we could totally go three or four hours
if we just, you know, usually we all have stuff to do, but we could go forever because

1326
01:55:54,049 --> 01:55:55,470
we're connected with our people.

1327
01:55:55,470 --> 01:55:57,271
And I think that's what's really fun about it.

1328
01:55:57,271 --> 01:56:04,535
So if people are looking for that kind of online connection, I think this, my group might
be one to check out.

1329
01:56:05,154 --> 01:56:06,774
Yeah, I could agree with that.

1330
01:56:06,774 --> 01:56:08,015
It was a lot of fun.

1331
01:56:08,015 --> 01:56:09,305
Thanks for having me on that.

1332
01:56:09,305 --> 01:56:10,515
That was great.

1333
01:56:11,956 --> 01:56:13,616
Yeah, I'd love to.

1334
01:56:14,997 --> 01:56:16,957
Yeah, cool.

1335
01:56:17,077 --> 01:56:19,098
Well, having that assignment, that's...

1336
01:56:19,918 --> 01:56:22,418
Sometimes you just need a little direction.

1337
01:56:22,719 --> 01:56:31,021
You know, sometimes the infinite options problem is real, where you can do anything.

1338
01:56:31,021 --> 01:56:34,882
Every one of us can make any type of song that we want.

1339
01:56:35,015 --> 01:56:39,252
So a little direction, it's always helpful.

1340
01:56:39,791 --> 01:56:48,811
Yeah, and I think, you know, just doing little exercises sometimes is enough to build your
skill over time.

1341
01:56:48,811 --> 01:56:52,834
I think sometimes we get in our head that we have to write a complete song all the time.

1342
01:56:52,834 --> 01:56:55,086
And that's not always true.

1343
01:56:55,086 --> 01:57:00,030
So just practicing part of the process can help you improve so much.

1344
01:57:01,870 --> 01:57:03,051
Absolutely.

1345
01:57:03,152 --> 01:57:15,837
So we've also got the YouTube channel, which is great, At Home Songwriting with Chad
Schenck, and the web address for you, athomesongwriting.thinkific.com.

1346
01:57:15,837 --> 01:57:20,713
So you can go to, yeah, I have athomesongwritingcourses.com.

1347
01:57:20,713 --> 01:57:22,875
So at home songwriting courses.

1348
01:57:22,875 --> 01:57:27,080
And then to get to the YouTube channel, you can go to athomesongwriting.com.

1349
01:57:27,080 --> 01:57:29,582
So either will find me.

1350
01:57:29,806 --> 01:57:34,385
Cool, I'll put all these links inside the show notes for this episode so people can find
it.

1351
01:57:34,385 --> 01:57:41,427
yeah, if you've enjoyed what Chad's been talking about, I certainly have, check him out.

1352
01:57:41,681 --> 01:57:43,615
Yeah, I just realized how long we've been talking.

1353
01:57:43,615 --> 01:57:44,257
That's crazy.

1354
01:57:44,257 --> 01:57:45,799
It doesn't feel that long.

1355
01:57:47,886 --> 01:57:48,387
Yeah.

1356
01:57:48,387 --> 01:57:52,530
look at the clock or when my dog, Audra, starts reminding me it's dinner time.

1357
01:57:52,530 --> 01:57:56,584
that means we're having a good time here.

1358
01:57:57,585 --> 01:57:58,400
So.

1359
01:57:58,400 --> 01:57:59,809
yeah, you have a studio dog.

1360
01:57:59,809 --> 01:58:00,791
I have a studio dog.

1361
01:58:00,791 --> 01:58:04,293
He's not in here with me right now, but yeah, usually.

1362
01:58:04,293 --> 01:58:15,029
Yeah, he's his name's Joey, and he's usually one of the reasons why I take breaks from
doing this stuff, because usually he has to go out before I want to stop.

1363
01:58:15,029 --> 01:58:15,929
So.

1364
01:58:17,971 --> 01:58:18,477
Yeah.

1365
01:58:18,477 --> 01:58:28,930
that about my dogs because they'll, you know, sometimes you're getting diminishing
returns, you're sitting here too long doing stuff, you just need some fresh air and then

1366
01:58:28,930 --> 01:58:31,332
things come back into place.

1367
01:58:31,853 --> 01:58:35,457
So it's a nice kind of built-in way to take a break.

1368
01:58:35,707 --> 01:58:36,568
Yep.

1369
01:58:37,113 --> 01:58:37,464
Awesome.

1370
01:58:37,464 --> 01:58:38,719
Well, thanks so much for having me.

1371
01:58:38,719 --> 01:58:39,709
This has been fun.

1372
01:58:39,709 --> 01:58:40,422
you.

1373
01:58:40,422 --> 01:58:42,125
Thanks everyone for listening.

1374
01:58:43,511 --> 01:58:44,909
Cool man, we did it.

1375
01:58:44,909 --> 01:58:45,804
Awesome.

1376
01:58:45,804 --> 01:58:47,564
I can't believe we went two hours.

1377
01:58:47,564 --> 01:58:49,457
Yeah, I hope that's okay.

1378
01:58:49,457 --> 01:58:53,563
It slipped by real fast for me.