People wanna believe their horse is complete individual, again,
to abdicate blame for why they aren't doing what they want.
Everyone says they want the truth, but what happens when
someone actually tells it?
Carl Cook is a top level show jumper, Olympic medalist, an
innovator, and a rider who doesn't play by the industry's rules.
He's blunt, he's curious, and he's not here to sell you shortcuts.
In this episode, Carl shares why we chase the wrong solutions, ignore the basics,
and spend money in all the wrong places.
Why we avoid the hard fixes?
The discipline.
We lack the balance issues we won't face.
The simple changes that would actually move the needle and why
we tell ourselves the same story.
My horse is just different.
A story that helps us dodge responsibility from building his own bits to
tracking every detail of horse care.
Carl's not chasing what's easy.
He's chasing what works.
Dear Horse world, it's Carl Cook.
Carl, welcome to the Dear Horse World Podcast.
It's
great to be here.
I am so happy you're here.
I'm gonna tell you my nickname for you, the Mad Scientist.
I mean, the first word works
okay?
So I'm gonna explain to everyone who's listening and watching why
I call you the Mad Scientist.
So over the years watching and.
Getting to know you.
I used to, when I would come to the shows a lot, you'd pull me in
sometimes to the barn or into the, the alleyway, and you'd show me something
really cool that you were working on.
And I've always really admired that kind of innovative mind that you have.
So I wanted to ask you, what are the latest and greatest innovations products,
things that you're building, testing, trying, that we might not know about yet?
Yeah.
So what am I working on now?
Um, yeah, I released a new bit, um, last year, which I'm really proud of.
I designed a couple years back.
Um, didn't really plan on releasing it, but.
You know, the opportunity came about.
We have some new versions of it coming, coming out soon.
I have a new bridal coming out, um, that's taken a while, um, to
get to where we can actually, you know, have production of inequality.
I made some studs for some of my horses, uh, that are lighter weight.
Um, and, you know, trying to take that element out of things.
There's also work on trying to add sensors, uh, when you ride, not
in the saddle as or on the girth, you know, there's plenty of those.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but they don't really tell you anything actionable.
Uh, they give you data, which is cool, like cool, but it
only, it's only distraction.
Uh, a lot of it because it's not connected to more actionable stuff.
Um.
So I've put tension sensors on my reins and on my stirrups,
and I use them for training.
Uh, and then those could help some of the data points from some of the other
sensors, but you kind of need those actionable items, your reins in your
stirs, because that's all we talk about.
You know, when we ride is, oh, you, you know, you were too late to sit up and
pull the reins to get that line done.
Or you yanked your horse off the floor or you were, you had all
your weight in your right stirrup.
That's, you know, common conversation.
And these will confirm or deny that it will tell you exactly how
much time it took you to pull.
It'll tell you, did you actually yank or were you actually have all your weight in
your right stir or was, were you balanced?
So you can actually just be more accurate with your analysis of your rounds.
Okay.
This is really cool.
I kind of wanna dive into this because you are doing something that
we've never been able to do before.
Yeah,
technology allows for what you're talking about, it
allowed for 15 years ago,
but not 50 years ago.
Well, no, but this is just an application of technology that we have.
It's nothing new, it's just a application that no one's tried,
I think outside of a, a lab maybe.
So why you're taking the oppo, the ability for technology to accumulate data.
Why is data important to someone like you?
I think data informs decisions.
Um, and we have our feeling in our sport and we use that as data
right now 'cause it's what we have.
Um, and some people are more accurate than others, but I think there are
things that you can benefit from if you actually have more objective data.
You know, like we spoke about years ago, the footing measuring, you know,
tension measuring in your reigns and your stirrups is a great continuance of that.
And it just helps inform your decisions.
You know, if you think you made a mistake, but then the data shows you
didn't make the mistake, you thought, well, then you made a different
mistake that you have to go figure out.
But if you thought you made a mistake that you didn't make, you'll go
down that road of fixing a mistake that you didn't actually make.
Yeah.
And then you're like, why am I not getting better?
Well, you're trying to fix something that wasn't broken.
Do you feel like what you're, this is a, to me, what reminds me
of is you're speaking of the, is the contrast or the, the conflict
between subjectivity and objectivity?
I don't think they're in conflict.
I think they're critical.
I think it's important that people have really well developed subjective feel.
Um, and I think it's important for objectivity to fill in
where it's most well suited.
I think if we then get to a point where young riders are riding off
of data and they're not actually thinking, and they're not actually
feeling, they won't be able to communicate at all what they're feeling.
They'll just look at a screen and be like, oh, I did it perfect.
And that's, that's wrong.
You know, should you pull more with your Right, right.
Or your left, right.
I don't know.
Maybe.
But if your goal is always to be even sometimes you need to have asymmetry.
Mm-hmm.
And if you're right off of just the data, you will fail.
And so it's important that the objectivity is just a sub, uh, supplement,
um, to confirm or deny, um, your feeling and your trainer's feeling,
or your team, that sort of thing.
It kind of reminds me of.
The, what you're talking about, the importance of subjectivity, the importance
of field, the importance of being able to apply data, but the also the ability to
collect data kind of feels like where art and science meet when it comes to horses.
I don't know if art's the right term.
I think it, I think it, I hate the term, but it's the best term is it's your feel.
Mm. You, you know, you, you know, I can know, I can get data that
shows that I pull more with my left.
Right.
Doing a right to left change than a left to right change.
Okay, cool.
Which one is correct?
Well, that's where your fuel comes in that says, oh, I think the stickiness
on my right to left change is maybe due to a preexisting injury that we know of
and that affects the gait a certain way.
Or if the horse isn't rotating his, his neck to the left, that's why
I'm pulling more with my left reign.
That can mean he doesn't want to compress the left side or he doesn't
want to extend the right side.
And that compression would, on the left side would mean that
it could be these structures.
Extension on the right side would mean these other structures.
And so that's where your knowledge and your feel and your experience comes in.
Mm-hmm.
The brain tension data just tells you something, you know, very basic, but you
have to fill that in with the rest of your experience and your team's experience.
So, let's talk a little bit about this bit and the bridal.
First of all, what did you see in the market that didn't exist and why you
wanted to create something unique to you?
I didn't want to.
You didn't?
No, I, you know, you only create things outta necessity.
You don't create them 'cause they're already there.
I had a specific need for something and nothing that existed could fill that need.
I have a deep bit box.
Trust me, I, nothing could fill that need and I. Had an idea of
combining two different bits in a way that hasn't been done before.
And it ended up working and I used that bit a lot.
I show one of my horses, I've shown a in it for years.
And, um, it accomplished the goal I wanted for it.
And that was the whole thing.
That was the end.
I had a need.
I filled it with a bit.
And then down the road I, you know, I met, met someone who
could help produce the bit.
'cause I thought it could be useful for other people.
Hmm.
Because I have a couple other bits that I've had designed
for, again, a need for me.
But that use case is so narrow.
Mm. And you need to really know what you're doing to get the benefit of it.
Mm-hmm.
Where this one, I think is you can get the benefit from it a lot simpler.
And I thought it could help a lot of people.
'cause that need, I feel is more widespread.
And people don't know that they need it.
They just know that they're struggling with something.
Um, and I believe this bit can help.
What is that need?
It's a bridge between apel and a swale.
Everyone knows what a plum is.
I think like two thirds to three quarters of all show jumping horses go in a pellum.
Mm-hmm.
Um, it's great 'cause it keeps the horse stable.
Mm-hmm.
But by doing so, it makes it kind of just dull.
Um, I frankly can't ride in a pellum 'cause it's too dull.
I can't turn, I can't do all these things that you need to do.
It's just too dull.
It's just ugh.
Um, but it makes the horse stable, which is great, you know, and
that stability can really help riders who need that stability.
Um, but sometimes horses are just so dull on it, on the other side.
On as Wale it's great 'cause it can make courses really, really light.
The problem is horses need to have some weight on the bit, on
the final approach to a fence.
And as Wale oftentimes that final approach, when the horses load your
hands, they'll, they'll pop off the bit.
Hmm.
Um, because they want to load.
And the bit is not letting 'em load.
Not because it's aggressive, it's just how it works.
So what I did is I, the, my bit is a combination of a pal, the strengths of a
pal, and the activity of a, of a swale.
So it's, you have the stability, but you also have more, you know, a more
dynamic feel than you ever get with a pal.
Cool.
Why do horses, I think that a lot of people listening might wanna
want me to ask this question.
Why do horses need to load on the bit before they jump?
I think it loads their body.
I think it's like, it's like loading a rubber band.
Mm-hmm.
You know, if you just take a loose rubber band, it's not gonna fly across the room.
Mm-hmm.
You know, that, that load is like loading up a rubber band.
And I think it's just that simple.
You, you know, you, it.
It'd be like saying jump, but don't bend your knees.
Yeah.
That's, I think, a really cool explanation.
Um, 'cause a lot of the people, a lot of our listeners are deep, deep,
deep in the jump in the world of jumping and then, and some aren't.
So I think it's a really cool opportunity.
The biomechanics that happen when horses jump over fences, especially
at the height that they jump with you, is a really exciting thing to witness.
And I think when you dive into the biomechanics, the balance aspects of
it, the angles, it's really interesting.
We did a little bit of that when we talked with, when Nikki Hinson came in mm-hmm.
To the EPIs into the studio.
It was really cool to talk about it.
Okay.
So let's, so we've touched on the bit.
Do you have a name for the bit?
We call it a s Swum.
So it's a combination of a s sw and a pellum.
Nice.
I thought about naming it something unique, but it was already new and, you
know, didn't want to confuse people.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I want just to be, make sense to 'em.
So
cool.
Yeah.
The bridal.
Just a leather bridle.
Well, you're really selling it, girl.
No, I mean, there's all these new bridals where it relieves pull pressure
or it moves the cheek piece so it doesn't pinch on a nerve that's there.
You know, all of this stuff.
First of all, people will put on a bridle that doesn't put pull pressure,
but in that, there's so many more straps around the cheeks and around the horse's
face, and then they put on a pellum.
A pellum is designed to apply pull pressure.
It's design is literally based around applying pull pressure.
So if you're complaining that your horse is sensitive to pull pressure,
yet you were required to use a pellum.
Or a gag or any of that, it makes no sense.
You, you know, and also people with tighter nose bands, any
tension in the nose band puts downward pressure on the pole.
Whether it's because the horse is opening their mouth against the
nose band, or because you put a tight nose band, it doesn't matter
any nose band tension mm-hmm.
Puts downward pressure.
And anyone can do this.
Just put your bridal on, put your hand underneath, uh, the crown piece mm-hmm.
And twist the nose band.
So you're slowly tightening it and you will feel downward pressure on your hand.
So all this anti pull pressure stuff, I think maybe 0.1% of
the time it's actually needed.
I think the rest of the time it's be, it's used as a cover so people don't
have to actually fix the problem.
I have never had a horse with a pul pressure problem.
I know every horse is unique and a special flower, but I also don't really.
Sh like I can't think of one horse that I ride in that their
show bridal a prize pull pressure except for Car Cole with Hack More.
That's the only one.
Mm-hmm.
Um, again, I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it's used as a to abdicate
blame for what's actually happening.
Um, but more than that, I think a lot of the bridals
nowadays are just really cheap.
Even if you spend a lot on them, just 'cause you spent a lot doesn't
mean that they're well made.
You know, you'll pick one up and it'll smell like chemicals.
Well that's because it's not vegetable tanned and it's chromium tanned in
like Bangladesh and they don't last.
And people just accept that.
And I wanted to make a bridal that works, that has better leather,
that works better, and you know, if you clean it moderately correctly.
Will last a long time.
Um, and we tie everything together so the bridal matches and it's made out of the
same leather as the Martin Gale made out.
It matches the reins, it matches, you know, so the whole thing
looks to, you know, correct.
Instead of having these mixed matched pieces that just don't look right.
Yeah.
I mean, as a kid I remember using electrical tape or zip ties or you, you
know, whatever you could have, or you, you know, you put on a different nose
band, but you didn't have that nose band in the bridal that the bridal was.
So you put that on, but it's doesn't match at all, and it looks ugly.
So, you know, we're just trying to make use go leather that people don't
use and use because it's expensive.
But for me, it's worth it.
And I don't like designing something I know is gonna fail
in a certain period of time.
It's more profitable.
It's way more profitable.
Yep.
But that's, that's not hard.
Yeah.
And it's not fun to design a product that you know is gonna fail.
You can just so much easier.
You just know it's gonna fail.
You don't have to solve the problem.
It's interesting 'cause we talked about this when ZA came into the
studio, talk about saddle fit.
And I don't think people, uh, do you think as an industry we talk enough about the
commercial patterns of T fit and the fact that it says you make more money when
something fails and needs to get replaced.
Do you think we talk about that enough?
No, but I mean, in society we don't.
Um, what's the technical term for it?
Uh, planned obsolescence is the technical term for it.
You plan for it to obsolesce.
Um, and they do that all over.
You know, we can make light bulbs that last millions of hours.
Why don't we, because it's not profitable.
We, we, we could make saddles that last longer.
Why don't we, it's not that profitable.
And also people are cheap.
You know, there's, there's plenty of, plenty of studies out there where everyone
says, oh, we want organic, uh, produce.
Mm-hmm.
And but then when you people see the price difference between the two, like
98% of 'em go to the conventional.
Yeah.
Do they really want organic?
They
don't wanna pay for it.
They want it, but they don't wanna pay the difference.
So if you have a conventionally made saddle versus one that'll last you
four times as long, but it's twice as expensive, you'll go for the cheaper one.
Why do you think that is?
Why do you think we do that?
Uh, it's human, human nature.
There's so much work to try to figure it out.
It's just expensive.
Um,
I also wonder whether we have an ability to delay gratification the
way that we used to because we live in such a, well, wasn't that option.
What do you mean?
I think people weren't as good at planned obsolescence in the past.
I. Okay, so stuff actually lasted mm-hmm.
And there wasn't an option between something that doesn't
last and something that does.
So then let's talk about the studs.
Yeah, I mean, I had a need for lighter weight studs, so
I made lighter weight studs.
Why did you have a need?
Um, I had a horse that was barefoot her whole life that needed to jump on
grass, so we had to put shoes on her.
We put plastic shoes on her and I made really lightweight studs so that we
didn't slip, and that was to minimize the difference between barefoot and,
and uh, having the plastic shoes on.
Okay.
This is really cool 'cause this is, I really wanted to dive
in to the end of each of your horses and how you navigate that.
But before we go there, I think this would be a really good
opportunity to talk about one.
So you've tested, you've tried and you're using plastic is like glue on?
No, no, I think glue on.
I haven't tested it yet, but I think it's, it.
It's, it's bad.
Okay.
So you're using plastic shoes that are nailed on.
That are nailed on and you're using it on your ma, can you name who The horse on
Carole.
On
Carole.
We wanna
start using on some others too.
Okay.
And she was barefoot her whole life.
Yep.
So you wanted to use lightweight shoes because she wasn't used to that.
Like she's gone her whole career.
Yeah, and we wanted
flexible shoes.
We wanted, you know, every piece to be as similar as before.
So.
And how's it going?
Been going great.
Great.
Yeah.
So you wanted to create a lightweight, you wanted to like recreate that
lightweight feel that she has.
She's had for most of her life, she has.
Yeah.
Biomechanically.
It's different, you know, we know that when you take shoes off
a horse who had been in shoes, there's differences to their gait.
We know that when you take a barefoot horse and you put shoes on, there's
differences in their gate and there's differences in their jump.
And we wanted the best parts of both sides of it.
Hmm.
So a horse that's barefoot will slip on grass.
Yeah.
It's like you, no one, no one plays soccer or American football and, and
goes with uh, you know, uh, you know, formal shoes they go to dinner with.
Right.
You know, not gonna work.
You need, you need cleats, you need studs.
So you wanna, and you want her to feel confident like the angles and the speed at
which you're moving at the, at the, yeah.
If
you're going full speed and turn and you think you're gonna slip,
you're not gonna turn right.
So, and you're also not gonna push off the ground.
You know, if you don't have a staple platform to push, they won't push.
So you have less scope.
Okay.
So let's start, I love this topic, especially with someone like yourself.
'cause I think you can describe really eloquently how the process that you
go through when you get a new horse and determining their individual
needs, what is that process for you?
I think this is a dangerous topic because people believe that their horse is one of
one, and all of the normal processes you can do don't apply to their horse, apply
to everyone else's, but not to theirs.
Okay.
And so they think that everything about their horse has to be completely
different and nothing else will work.
And they spin themselves down a rabbit hole.
And guess what?
Horse never gets better and they don't get better.
Mm. Um, the differences between my horse is, sure there are differences,
but if you actually see what it's like, it's not that different.
People wanna believe their horses completely a complete individual,
again, to abdicate blame for why they aren't doing what they want.
That's an interesting call to action
and.
If I have a horse that's a little bit colder, I'll give 'em a
little bit more energetic food.
If I have a horse that's hotter, I'll give 'em a little bit less energetic food.
But they're still all, I'm not saying my horse processes carbohydrates
different than another horse.
Mm-hmm.
No, no, no.
I'm not saying a feed won't work with that horse.
No.
You know, they all still, all the saddles are the same, their boots are the same.
The, you know, the, the only reason for the bits being different is
a little bit different in, in just their base biomechanics.
Yeah.
'cause, you know, one might be taller, shorter, you know, longer stride,
shorter stride, that sort of thing.
Um, but I, I, I, I think horses are individual, but this understanding that
my horse, like if, think of the odds if you are, if it's a 1% chance that
something doesn't work with your horse.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
There's one thing that's 1% chance.
Mm-hmm.
A second thing.
Now your horse is one in 10,000, two 1% things.
Mm-hmm.
The likelihood of that is one in 10,000.
Now one more, one in a hundred, that's one in a million.
A third now a fourth.
That's one in a hundred million.
Mm-hmm.
So that's four.
One in a hundred things.
It's one in a hundred million.
Yeah.
The likelihood, so I, I just, your horse is an individual, but most of the time
when people are saying, my horse is just different, it's just different.
They're, that's just to allow themselves to not be, to make it okay that they're
getting less out of their relationship and that, and to make it okay that them as a
rider and as a manager aren't doing what.
They should be doing.
Um, I know that's maybe not the most comfortable way to look at it for people
and they'll push back on and say, no, no, my horse really is one of one.
Well, I think if you look at biology, there are similarities amongst people
and then there are also individual needs.
Right?
And so it's a balance between the two.
Is one person one of one?
Well, we're one of many.
Yeah.
But I mean like, you know, good horse care is good horse care.
Mm. You, you know, if you have bad horse care and say My horse doesn't like this
one skin product, but you have bad horse care, I would say, how about you have
good horse care first, then we can talk.
I just think it's dangerous.
I love that.
And you're someone that actually has spoken very openly about, um, I think
you did a walking and talking, talking about the importance that we teach.
Our young riders, our up and coming generation, not just about riding, but
about horse care, about management, about keeping horse, about finding a
horse, about, there's so many elements that go into success to what you're
talking about is a holistic look, right?
Yeah.
And have structure to it.
How can you, how can you come up with any solution if you're changing
the variables at a whim and you're not keeping track of any of the
variables that you can keep track of?
There are variables you can keep track of.
Like what,
uh, how much weight and hay does your of course get a day?
What time of day?
How many times a day?
When do they work?
What weight are they at the same time of day every Monday?
Mm.
Um, where, how many, how much time do they spend in a paddock?
What is the grass like in that paddock?
How often do you clean the shavings?
Yeah.
Do you know that each batch of your hay has the same nutrient
density as the batch before?
What's cool is that we're coming back to data.
You're coming back to measurable data.
Control the variables you can, because there's plenty you can't.
So at least control the ones you can.
Really cool
at least.
So walk me through the process.
What's the kind of timeline that you look at when you get a new horse?
What's the timeline of observation, let's say that you have in your mind or in your
program when you're trying to determine the very best, let's say, ingredients
for that horse within the structure and within the program that you run?
Well, first they have to be fed stably.
So whatever they were fed before, if it's your decision to feed them the
exact same thing, the exact same way, that's, that would keep it stable.
Okay.
Um, if you choose to make a change, it takes a certain period of time for
that change to manifest, you know?
For example, if you decide to feed them twice the amount of calories,
they're not gonna get fat tomorrow.
Hmm.
They'll get fat in a period of time.
And you obviously have to go for a search to figure out the right equipment.
Uh, you know, tendency would be, oh, it, this horse went in this bit before,
so I'm only ever gonna use that bit.
Well, you're not the rider who rode it before.
You might be taller, shorter, stronger, weaker, older, younger, and we almost
never, I think there's only one horse that I go in the same bridal.
Yeah.
Ever.
So you have to get a, a stable feed and stable flat work.
Okay.
Because then you can say, okay, well these things are stable.
Is the horse still heavy?
Is the horse still light?
Is the horse dull?
Is the horse too hot?
Is the horse skittish?
How has the body changed?
Does the saddle that we fit in the beginning still fit because
they lost weight or gained muscle, or just gained fat, maybe.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, and then you just slowly tweak from there.
You tweak, you know, one variable at a time and you just step along the process.
You know, obviously if the program the horse was in before compared
to yours is very different, you'll see a lot more change.
And it'll probably happen faster, but also take longer.
So there's no cookie cutter, six weeks, but it's also not, it takes forever.
Like it just, it's part of the work.
You just step through it and you go from one day to the next.
I don't think an expectation should be set.
I love that.
What's one piece of advice?
For everyone who's listening, who has a, who have a new horse, and let's
say the horse went really well or didn't go so well with the previous
rider, what do you think is one thing that everybody, regardless of their
socioeconomic background, their geo, geographical location, their area,
their sport, any of that, what's one thing that every rider is capable
of doing to accommodate a new horse?
Treat it well.
Horse doesn't know if you are rich or you are poor.
The horse doesn't know.
If you felt you spent a lot or a little, your horse doesn't know your
expectations or the expectations before.
Um, just treat it well.
And from that you end up getting what you want instead of just expecting and only
treating it well if they give it to you.
You know, you don't do that with kids or dogs.
You know, where you're basically treating 'em poorly, hoping that
they guess the right solution, and then you treat them well.
How likely do you think it is a horse is gonna guess the right solution?
Because there's like many steps to actually get to the right solution.
Mm-hmm.
But you haven't given them any of those steps, and you're expecting them
to figure out all of those steps to get to the right solution, and then
you treat it well just treat it well.
I love that.
Sorry.
It's boring, but
No, I like that you chose the word well instead of good or fair,
let's treat it well.
What do you think well means?
What's your definition of Well,
I mean, horses, they don't need a pretty barn.
They don't need perfectly manicured shavings at all times.
They don't need to have a soapy bath every day.
Mm-hmm.
They don't need, you know, a lot of this stuff.
They need highly functional.
Surroundings.
Even if the barn has old wood, they don't give a shit as long as the wood doesn't
like stab them with shards of wood when they rub up against it on accident.
Yeah,
that's fine.
You know, they don't need some state-of-the-art watering
system that keeps track of every drop that they, they drink.
No, they just need clean water in clean buckets.
That's really not that hard.
Um, they need a diet that's appropriate for what they do and that's fed to 'em
many times a day, um, consistently at the same time, all the meals, every day.
And you, to just be fair,
I love, I love that statement because we had some amazingly inspiring
veterinarians in the studio and they talk, you know, about spend the money on.
Getting the teeth floated properly instead of the brand new tack
trunk, because you, that's not gonna make the difference to your horse.
And some people they spend, you know, they spend whatever they spend on a horse.
Mm-hmm.
And then they balk that you have to shoo them every, you might decide to s
them every four weeks instead every six.
Yeah.
That'd be like me buying a Ferrari and putting, you know, oil that's
meant for like a 1982 Acura in it.
Like, that's just dumb.
Why are you saving money there?
Mm. That's, it's, it, it makes no logical sense.
Yeah.
If you're gonna, and if you make the choice to invest in a horse, you
have to invest in the whole horse, not just in the purchase price.
And sorry to tell you that, but it's kind of self-explanatory.
Okay.
So this, I just really appreciate, I also just, I think a lot of
people, I mean, judging by the.
By the popularity of walking and talking.
I think people appreciate the way that you deliver things
and why.
Actually, here's a, here's a good question.
Before we dive into a really cool, I wanted to talk to you about your
style of riding, but before we do that actually, why do you feel like inspired
or a sense of, maybe even maybe in the sense of responsibility, why do you feel
the need to, to tell people and speak honestly, and speak openly and speak
transparently, because you don't have to, you could have no social media.
You could just ride and focus on all your goals.
You don't have, you don't owe anyone any information, and yet you have dedicated
a big part in walking and talking.
I think a lot of people in the horse world would contribute or attribute
it to be a tremendous effort in transparency and open dialogue.
Why?
I think there's two main reasons I would say they're not in sequential order.
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I would say they're not in sequential order.
Okay.
Um, first it helps me
because you, we all can think about a problem in our head for hours.
Hmm.
We can talk about our feelings with our trainer for four hours,
you know, after a round to solve feelings and feelings and feelings.
There's so many feelings, too many feelings.
But actually having to say it out loud in a concise manner is helpful.
Just like when someone says, write it down, like, well, I,
I've, I've thought about it.
Like I know my thoughts.
I know.
Write it also in one paragraph that changes how you think about it.
It changes your method of thinking and.
You now don't have an option of being three and a half hours of feelings.
Mm. You have, you have maybe two sentences of feelings, and then
hopefully you do like five sentences on what you're gonna do now.
And me speaking is a lot similar to that, and it is helpful for me to do that.
Um, also, a lot of times some people's comments are quite interesting.
Maybe not in the way that I, I didn't expect it, but that
doesn't mean it's not interesting.
It's not helpful.
So first of all, it's helpful.
Second, um, I'm very grateful for a lot of the experiences and the
people I've been able to learn from.
I have been very fortunate to be able to learn from them in the
way that I was able to do it.
That is not the cheapest way to learn.
And most of the time the knowledge that people are searching for,
whether they know it or not, is locked behind money They do not have.
And
they, so the help they get are generally misappropriated bandaids as
opposed to what actually will help.
That doesn't mean they'll do it, but would what would actually help if they did?
And I'm not saying I have all the right answers 'cause I don't, I would
jump clear in every class if I did.
Um, but I want it to be cheaper for people to learn how to treat their horses well
that's a really cool why.
It also helps me.
I like that you said that they're not in sequential order.
Well, 'cause I was gonna start with what I started with anyway.
Yeah.
I didn't want to, you know,
it's a really cool why because I think there's some of us in the, I
think there's more people than maybe,
well actually we also spend our money in awful and really not awful,
really not objectively correct ways.
So you'll spend, I don't know, what does it cost for a lesson?
I
can cost anywhere from 50 to 250 to
Great.
Let's say your lesson cost 50 to $250 and you have what,
two to four of those a week?
I think some people have them one time a week.
Sometimes.
Yeah.
Fine.
More.
That is a lot of money that you're paying consistently.
Mm-hmm.
And the point of why you're doing that is because you want consistent knowledge
to change consistently, to get better.
And unfortunately to get better, you have to change who you are.
You can't get better without change.
I know we're all perfect flowers the way we are, but you can't
get better without changing.
Are
we perfect flowers the way we are?
Uh, I was placating to an audience.
Uh, no.
We're, but you know, people want to assume that they could just change
one tiny thing and everything will, like they're doing everything right.
It's just one little thing.
But, so let's say your lessons are a hundred dollars and you do two of them
a week, that's $200, $800 a month.
And that's just the lessons.
That doesn't count the other expenses, which is really expensive.
Yeah.
Now there are plenty of books.
Each one can teach you more than any one of those lessons.
You think so?
Yeah.
In one one hour lesson a. $30 book will teach you more than that one hour lesson.
A hundred percent.
That's really cool.
Yet we proverbial, we want to learn while sitting our ass in a saddle.
And the thought that you would learn about riding not in a saddle, on a horse, in a
ring with someone talking to you mm-hmm.
Is just anathema to success for some reason.
And so, back to my point, people spend money in the horse
sports just unintelligently.
'cause you can get, I'm not saying in-person lessons
while writing is useless.
Hmm.
I'm saying it needs to come with other things that can actually make you have
more context to what's being said.
So you can get more out of those a hundred dollar lessons
and you can get better faster.
But people don't do it.
When I tell people the, what helped me the most outside of working with
Eric was reading, they look at me like I speak in Chinese and I also sit
there and I see the reaction and the only thing it tells me is it's only
gonna hurt them to have that reaction.
It doesn't hurt me.
It makes me think of when we go to school, you would never just show up
to class and listen to your teacher and not do any of the reading or any of
the homework because they're, or there
just wouldn't be reading or homework or, or anything you would just be spoken at
and then expect at the end to get a PhD.
Right, because what I think you are talking about, and
I love that you brought up.
That reading was the best way to get the most out of riding with,
is that, that what you said?
Riding with Eric, the best thing you could do was read.
Mm-hmm.
But what it makes me think of is that what you were doing was you were
priming and enriching and building the brain that was receiving the
information you're getting from Eric in a way that makes what you learn from
him that much more valuable to you.
Sure.
Also, working with your vet, you know, you, you, you know, I've
studied one of my favorite books I've studied over and over again.
It is boring as All Hell 'cause All it is is rote memorization.
It's an anatomy book.
So it's just memorization.
Yeah.
Yet when you can remember the various structures, you can then picture how
they move, how they interact together.
How if you have a little bit of swelling in this tendon, and let's
say you have a little bit of, you have a tear in a dispensary.
Yeah.
You know, you have more context.
Two, what type of movements could have caused it?
Mm-hmm.
Is it a compensatory injury, which 98% of the time is so then
what are they compensating for?
Mm-hmm.
If you don't treat that, you're not gonna fix the dispensary and
you can adjust your flat work.
You, depending on what you're trying to strengthen or avoid.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, especially in rehab.
And when you're talking to your vet and your vet's talking about what they see,
you actually have context for what you're saying and you actually know where the
structures are that they're talking about.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, how many people listen to their ve they're like, oh, yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's a good idea.
But they have no idea if the vet's talking about a structure
in the back, in the neck.
A leg,
oh, um, sorry.
Present company included for most of my junior.
And, and how much would it have helped you?
You, you know so
much.
But I was intimidated to even say, I don't actually have
any clue about what you're the
internet talking about.
Well, you got the
Yeah.
Now,
and, you know, I
definitely,
or, you know, pay 20 bucks a month for, uh, an AI search engine Yeah.
So that you can search your questions.
Yeah.
Um, I, I just don't get why people don't do that.
I just, I just don't, never will.
Hmm.
I think it's, well, one, I think there's a lot less education,
especially about biomechanics and about anatomy than the books are out there.
Most people are comfortable to admit
they're out there.
The books are that.
I agree.
And actually, the main book I'm thinking of was, I think it was printed in oh four.
2004.
Yeah.
Not 1904.
No, no.
2004. I think it was 2004.
Well, you know what we should do is in the show notes to this episode,
so it was in one of your previous things that you posted My five books.
Yep.
I already spoke about two of those five books.
Okay.
'cause we're gonna include them in show notes.
So, and, and the book is on Amazon for like 45 bucks.
There you go.
And like, why wouldn't you do that?
Like, just, just why it makes no sense.
Well, and I think, I think an Olympian sitting in the studio saying that it
will tangibly contribute to your riding.
Just try it
and see what happens.
Yeah.
So we talked about, I'm glad you brought up Eric, because, so for, for those who
are listening and watching you who don't know, you have ridden with and worked
with Eric Neve for how many years now?
Uh, almost 13.
Right.
And he's an, and you would consider him a great mentor of yours?
Mm-hmm.
Of course.
So I think Eric, personally, I think he's one of the greatest of all time.
I think he's mm-hmm.
Unbelievable.
So at what point do you go from riding like Eric to riding like Carl Cook?
Because everyone in the horse world talks about this.
They talk about, you know, you kind of ride in the style that you're
mentored and until you develop your own individual approach.
Mm-hmm.
When did that happen for you?
I always had my own style before I rode with Eric.
Okay.
I was never, I, uh, for good or for bad.
My, my first barn I was at never really forced a position on me.
There's many good things about that.
There's also some less good things.
It's, you know, nothing's good, you know, nothing's all or nothing.
Yeah.
Um, but I went to Eric because a lot.
Too much stuff was not working.
So I needed to learn that stuff that wasn't working.
So I changed how I rode because it was the right plan, it was the right way,
um, so that Eric wouldn't have to teach around what I didn't want to learn.
Um, and so I rode as much as I could like him.
Obviously I knew that I would fail 'cause you can never ride
a hundred percent like anyone.
That's just impossible.
Um, but I knew I needed to learn a bunch of stuff.
So, uh, that's what I did.
And then maybe I started to ride more like myself.
Uh, once I really, once I started to pick my own horses, uh, because I had a certain
type of horse when I was a young rider.
I was very successful on that.
Obviously stopped working.
Um, but then for a number of years I didn't pick my horses and you
could say it's a bad thing, but also those horses had characteristics
that helped me learn those things.
I didn't know.
Yeah.
You, you know, if you are trying to learn how to use your leg
better yet your horses are runaway.
You're never gonna learn how to use your leg.
Mm. Uh, this, this just won't happen.
You need a horse that needs, you know, a good leg for you to learn.
Is my leg do helping or not?
Mm-hmm.
So, um, but once I started to be in charge of picking my own horses, then,
you know, stylistically I could take what I, you know, had been and was
learning with Eric and bringing in horses that were more similar to what I
was successful with when I was younger.
But now since I knew so much more then those errors and
those issues from the past.
The idea, the hope was wouldn't come back.
So what is that type of horse now?
How would you describe the horse that you It's a
modern horse.
It's, it's just a modern, you, you know, people joke that
it's only one type of horse.
'cause I only have Hot Bay mares.
But
also we all love the fact that you have Hot Bay mares.
Yeah, I do have an inordinate number of Hot Bay MAs.
I, I am not looking for only Hot Bay MAs.
Um, but, you know, there's always a balance of feel that you're going for.
And I think nowadays the courses are getting more delicate.
The times are getting faster, the jump offs are getting faster.
You need a smart, um, quick active, delicate sport horse.
Um, you know, those big boats of things that used to be more successful.
I think what we do in the ring now is different.
So you can see people are riding quicker, hotter, more energetic
horses than, than they used to.
Okay.
I'm gonna ask you a hard question, which I wasn't expecting to ask
you, but you say that statement.
So because we are breeding potter, sportier, finer horses, and the
way that the sport has evolved, things are really technical.
So you have two factories.
When we talk about change, we talk about data.
So those are two factors that have changed.
So the additional factor that's important to making, to creating
success is horsemanship.
Do you think horsemanship has caught up or is in, in alignment with the
breeding and the technicality of the
sport?
Well, I don't think, I think some people are breeding lighter horses.
What I would say is more accurate is we are selecting those for the top sport.
Those heavy horses just don't go to the top sport anymore.
They go to teach juniors, amateurs, they go to hunters or equitation or, yeah,
you know, they just go somewhere else.
Um,
and they find success elsewhere.
Yeah.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
They just, the horses we are selecting for the top sport Yeah.
Are just different.
Not sure they're attempting to breed, you know, every breeder's trying to breed
horses, they can sell for a lot of money.
Yeah.
So, you know, they're trying to look into their crystal ball.
Uh, for that.
I think the horsemanship at the top level absolutely.
Has a hundred percent keeps up.
Um, it's the most dynamic place to be.
Um, so on that side, yes.
Mm-hmm.
But also the, even though that group of people at the high end is
bigger than it ever has been, it's still tiny in comparison to, you
know, the rest of horse sports.
But that's always the way it's gonna be.
Yes.
You know, should it be different?
Yeah.
It's why it's a pyramid, but it's it's not a bot.
It's not a rectangle.
Yeah.
But also if you stick, if you stick a non-top rider in
and amongst those top riders.
They will miss 96% of what's happening.
Uh, now will they get better faster than if they were hidden at home
trying to learn by themselves?
Sure.
But you're gonna miss a whole lot.
I don't know how to change it.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I, I don't think enough people are up to telling their secrets.
Um, there aren't any secrets.
They just think they are.
So you can't ride like them anyway.
So why does it matter if they use three holes on the, or three nails on the
outside and two nails on the inside?
Or they use a this stir or that stirrup or this supplement or
that supplement or whatever.
You can't write like him anyways.
Doesn't matter.
Okay.
I'm gonna say a statement.
I'm really curious what you think about it.
I had a really interesting cowboy asked him if he was ever gonna write a book and
he said, no, I'm not gonna write a book.
'cause it's all been written.
Do you think it's true?
No.
I mean, no, I think, I think at best, 90% of your book, if successful,
will just restate things in a way that people might understand.
Now, the application in the western world is different than the application for us.
Um, if we are gonna write a book about training your horse to hopefully
jump successfully to three foot three or three foot six, mm-hmm.
I'd say, yeah,
everything's been written.
Everything you need to know has been written.
A lot of the stuff that's at the cutting edge, at the high level,
you don't need at that level.
Right.
That'd be like saying, do you need F1 tires to go pick up the groceries?
Right.
And nothing wrong with that horse that just jumps Three foot three.
Yeah.
But you don't need any of that cra you know, any of that crazy tack.
Well, I think it's actually really empowering for a lot of us.
Sit here.
You could just
do it.
Yeah.
What has already been ridden.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but at the highest level, no, that's always new.
It seems like it's very innovative.
Yeah.
People wanna be, 'cause people wanna win and, you know, any advantage they can
get, they'll, they can and should take.
Okay.
Now I wanna dive into, actually I'm gonna read a, a definition and
I'm going to ask you if you have ever navigated imposter syndrome.
And before you answer, I'm gonna, I'm gonna read the definition
and this is actually something.
I get from you 'cause I'm pretty sure you've actually read out the
definition on a couple things.
Imposter syndrome, also known as imposter phenomenon, is a behavioral health
issue that causes people to doubt their skills, accomplishments, and intellect.
It can manifest as a persistent feeling of self-doubt and fear
of being exposed as a fraud.
People with imposter syndrome may believe that they are
undeserving of their achievements and the high regard they receive.
Have you ever felt that?
I think it is important to not
focus on a definition for something, but in what you choose to do.
Hmm.
Um, because who cares if you've ever felt symptoms of imposter syndrome?
Mm-hmm.
What did you do?
Sure.
In my position, I come from a very fortunate position where I've
been able to ride great horses since my first punny jumper.
Right.
And of course, you want to ride any of those great horses that people know that
you have in a way that is right for them.
Mm-hmm.
Now, I could choose to let that cripple me.
Mm-hmm.
Or I could choose not to.
And if I just stay obsessed with the definition, let's say, it perfectly
explains everything in my being.
And if I just wallow in that, who loses most
me?
Mm-hmm.
So what is your choice?
And who cares if you have all of the symptoms?
Who cares if you have the best reasons why?
Hmm.
I don't care.
You shouldn't care.
It matters what you choose to do.
And similar to the question of how do you deal with pressure?
My answer to them is, pressure is a privilege is what
you choose to do with it.
It makes you better.
If you think it makes you worse and you act on that, well then
you're the one who suffers.
I don't suffer.
So I, people need to make a choice and not think that, make a choice to act
and not just wallow in some words or
I think it's really good advice.
I think it's very poignant because I think a lot of people have, I mean, I
certainly talk to all sorts of people in the horse world at lower levels,
at higher levels that have said they have struggled with imposter syndrome.
And I think it's really a, it's a thing that we all navigate a
lot of, a lot of people navigate.
So what are some of your own tools?
Because you, not only, so you talk about the, you, you just, you
just described it so perfectly.
Like you have had so many opportunities within the horse, within the horse
world and within horse sport you have competed at the top, top level
and you've gone to the Olympics.
You have a ton of pressure.
And anyone who knows show jumping will say it's like, it has the mental demands
of golf, but it happens in a matter of minutes, like downhill ski racing.
So it's a very fascinating combination of, of, um, like I would say like mental game.
Right.
So what is your personal practice when it comes to mental health and
specifically sports psychology?
Well, what I'd say is, look, you're, everyone has a bunch of thoughts.
I, I bet you everyone at the Showgrounds has had thoughts, some or all of
the thoughts on your definition.
Mm-hmm.
You think everybody
probably.
I agree.
You know, we we're humans.
We have a lot of thoughts.
We've also had a lot of thoughts of confidence.
Mm-hmm.
We've had a lot of thoughts of, I can do this, I can't do this.
I, you know, we all have so many thoughts and I think it's important
to not focus on that and focus on, well, what are you gonna do?
What is the action that you're gonna do next?
Because you're not gonna get better by staying in your head.
What's your action?
Where do you go from there?
You know, it's all fun and games to talk about feelings for hours.
You don't follow that up with action.
You'll be in the same place.
So I don't care if you've had imposter syndrome feelings or you've had.
Um, loss of worth feelings or, you know, you'll, you might have
some depressive feelings, some uh, overbearing pressure feelings.
Some, you know, this is tough.
This, this is a lot going on.
Mm-hmm.
But it matters what you choose to do.
It's a choice.
Most people aren't forced to ride.
If it, you choose to ride and you have feelings that are difficult for
you to manage, we'll make a choice to figure out how to deal with them.
We can label all you want, but it's about your choice of action.
So what are three things that you think are available to
everybody to up their mental game?
I mean, look, you can.
You can read self-help books and, and get a therapist.
I obviously, I have a sports psychologist.
I, there's nothing wrong with that, but I think it's important that
people stay very action based.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, very method based and they stay disciplined on their method.
Um, because if they do the method, whatever they believe is correct over
and over again, and they keep having the same problem, okay, well then
change one thing about your method.
Mm-hmm.
See if it makes an improvement.
Mm-hmm.
And that's how you develop your own way.
There's no, there's no three bullet pointed system.
I can't do a, a speech tour where I give people the answers to.
Mm-hmm.
All the mysteries of life.
For me, it's, it, it's the same as writing.
You show up each day, you work on the action points from yesterday,
you try to make those better.
If they get better, great.
You find other action points for tomorrow.
If they don't, maybe what you tried today was not the right thing to do.
You try something else tomorrow.
Hmm.
Um, who cares that you didn't fix it in today?
Just keep going.
And if it's completely crippling and ruining your life alone, it's,
you have a choice to not ride.
I know this is not touchy feely summer camp.
Everyone's having a great time stuff, but I, for me, it's, you have to choose
to act, um, make an action, might not be the right one, but by making an action,
you learn that it wasn't the right one, then you can try another action.
If you make no action, you'll have the same result.
Yeah.
I actually think that I'm gonna draw a reference because as you're talking and
you said, you know, this isn't the summer camp touchy feely vibe that everyone
might wanna hear, but actually no.
Are you familiar with who Jordan Peterson is?
In the mental health space.
He's a really, um, he's sort of a thought leader in, in psychology and in human
thought, and he's very popular and a lot of people attribute his popularity to his
ability to actually just give that kind of, this is gonna be a heteronormative
reference, but like his ability to give that kind of like straight up
fatherly advice that you might get.
He, he's actually really well known for being pretty to the point and to
say some say the hard thing for most people, and he's become really popular
because of that and not popular in some room in some areas because of that.
And I actually think that the collective needs those points of view.
I think it's an important balance, right, to say actually there are things
that you can do and they're not that complicated and they're available to
you and you don't really have an excuse.
Yep.
And a lot of times the reason people don't make simple changes is just 'cause
it's simple, doesn't mean it's easy.
A lot of times the hardest change is the simple one.
Mm. And they want secrets that they don't know.
So it'd be something complicated or specialized or mm-hmm.
You know, proprietary.
Mm-hmm.
That is simple.
And they don't have to really do anything.
It just like washes over them and all of a sudden they're a new person.
Yeah.
You see that all the time, but it's often the simple change that is the hardest one.
That is the one to make.
But I'm sorry, it's hard.
Can't change that.
I just love to like, let the silence sit around some of these really
powerful talk, like these really powerful statements you're making.
You have a co a quite a few, maybe more than you realize, a couple
fans in fellow riders and they, they actually ex, they really celebrate how
to the point and unfiltered you are.
They actually, I think one referenced it as a superpower, but it also can
cause quite a stir, which we've seen.
I think I am in a very fortunate place where it doesn't hurt me to
speak out or, or to speak my mind.
It doesn't hurt me to speak my mind because it, I don't
have to worry about clients.
I don't have to worry about good relationships with other trainers.
So we can do business back and forth.
I don't,
I just don't have to worry.
Mm-hmm.
And so it doesn't.
If I cause a stir unintentionally or intentionally, it doesn't
affect what I do with my horses.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I look my owner's, my, my mom.
So if I say something that rattles the boat a little bit, she's not
gonna take all the horses and go give them to someone else.
Yeah.
So I'm in a very fortunate position where I can be upfront, and a lot of
people at the show are also upfront, but they choose not to be because it might
negatively impact their livelihoods.
Yeah.
And you could say they shouldn't do that.
They should always speak their mind all that, you know, they're less of
a person because No, they, they have, there's more stuff in their equation.
Yeah.
They have bills to pay mortgages than
there is for me.
Yeah.
Like the, and I think that's a factor that's super important that
sometimes maybe the horse world doesn't always take into consideration
is when you're reading a piece.
When you're reading an article, when you're talking to somebody,
what is their point of view?
Because there's a spectrum of opinion and it's opinion.
Where are they sitting on that spectrum?
You're taught it at university.
Hopefully.
You're taught to, yeah.
You're taught to discern what is the point of view, what is the bias that exists
within this particular point of view?
Right.
But something that I don't know if we talk maybe openly enough about
in the horse world is there's a lot of editing that takes place because
money makes the world go round.
And a lot of riders or a lot of individuals within the horse world,
they have, I have been in positions where people have said something to me
and they're like, I will never say that publicly, Noel, I will never say that.
Yeah, sure.
I, I mean, I could, you would say, why didn't this trainer
tell me what actually would help?
Well, you didn't want to hear it, you know, if you showed up for a clinic and.
Your bridle was way too big and you couldn't make it shorter.
Your saddle was fit for an elephant and you have mismatched boots
and your horse is really unfit and you've paid for this clinic.
Mm-hmm.
And instead of the trainer teaching you what the clinic was about in the saddle,
they said, I'm sorry, you're still gonna pay, but I can't teach you in the saddle.
I'm gonna show you what is wrong with your equipment.
And until that is fixed, you can't come back.
Now.
That is the right way to do it.
Yeah.
Because until your shoeing is right, your tack, your saddle fits, you know,
you, you have boots that fit for the purpose that they're supposed to be
your horses, you know, in a good place.
Physically, you shouldn't be taught to ride.
On that horse mm-hmm.
With that saddle that doesn't fit.
Mm-hmm.
But
that wouldn't go over well
economically.
It wouldn't go over well,
you know, I could do the same format with many different ways.
Mm-hmm.
There's many applications of that concept in the horse world.
Yeah.
And so it, to me, I don't wonder why the state of things are the way they are.
A lot of people do.
I don't, because you look at where the incentives are, where the expectations
are, and what people are paying for, but they think they're paying for.
Mm-hmm.
It actually makes perfect sense,
which is why everyone needs to pick up a book.
Right.
Just think for
themselves.
Because you could get, yeah.
Think for yourself and pick up a book, because that is something that
actually can mitigate coming to the clinic with a poorly fit battle.
But, but also it could just be that they knew the right answer, but
they don't have enough discipline.
Mm.
To
do it.
Like, you know that, you know, the horse should have been haw four weeks ago.
Yeah.
But you didn't do it.
That is nothing about knowledge.
That is all about discipline.
Yeah.
I agree with that.
And
there's a lot of stuff where they want to think it's about lack of knowledge or
it's really just a lack of discipline.
Mm. With the knowledge that you had, if you did everything that your knowledge
told you with discipline, you would be way farther ahead, even if you
still lack knowledge, but you were disciplined about the knowledge you got.
Oh.
Instead of just thinking, I'm doing all the discipline.
Great.
It's just I lack, lack knowledge.
Like No, no.
A lot.
You need more knowledge.
Sure.
But it's best suited if you also can put it into a discipline program.
Just more silence.
So good buddy.
I just love it.
Okay.
Sometimes you say like, you've said stuff to me or you've said stuff publicly
and then you'll get criticism for it.
And I loved something you said to me when we were like on the phone
once you said, doesn't mean that I'm gonna change what I said.
It's like this idea of just 'cause you get criticism for what she
said does not mean that it's wrong.
I think if people are expressing their ideas
mm-hmm.
And their experiences, even if it is completely opposite to my ideas and
experiences, that is still helpful.
Yeah.
Both to me and to other people now.
Sure.
Attacking people personally, that's really not helpful for the conversation.
Yeah.
But differences of opinion are helpful even if I think those opinions are wrong.
It's still helpful.
So just because someone has a different opinion than me doesn't mean I am
going to regret saying anything.
It just means that there is a conversation going.
And that's not a bad thing.
Like who?
Disagreement's not a bad thing.
Um, it's how you learn.
You know, why does that person have that difference of opinion?
Is there something about my opinion that actually should
be educated a bit by theirs?
Mm. 'cause a lot of times that's the case, you know?
And, and you have to be open to that change.
As much as I speak loudly, I also change how I think.
I think that's something that's really important to emphasize
in this right now, right?
Is you can have an opinion and it can also change, it can evolve.
Like Mark Rashid was in the studio and I said he's written 16 books.
And I said, what's, you know, like, what's one book that just stands out for you?
And he said, well, each of those books was a, is a representation of the,
the thoughts and the feelings and the opinions that I had at that time.
Yep.
And you know, he's like an icon in, in, in his space.
And he said, and those have changed.
I've written 16 books to say that I have the exact opinion that I had in
each of those books is, is a, is a fallacy, you know, thought evolves.
It should, you don't get better without change.
So good.
Okay, so to wrap up every episode, I always ask each guest
the same rapid fire questions.
If you could read one book to the horse world, what would it be?
I don't know
really.
It can't be just one?
Well, you gotta pick just one.
I don't know.
I can't answer that one.
Okay.
Who is the most iconic horse in history?
So many ways you could do it because he would say Eclipse, but then no one
would know what you're talking about.
Um, Milton, because how he inspired the partnership inspired
everyone that came after.
Do you think that's who, so when top riders want to aspire to what I'd call
symbiosis between horse and rider, do you think that's who they think of?
Yeah.
Or I mean, you could also, in that example, you could pick
someone, a horse like, oo, who else could have ridden that thing?
Mm-hmm.
And that partnership and the way that was amazing.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, that that same, uh, same, you know, gem twist at
that time was such a cool horse.
Mm-hmm.
Awesome.
Unbelievable.
Um, Hickstead like that, you know, I know it's out of fashion.
I get it.
But like, remember watching them go around amazing.
Like, just like, just.
Ignore some of the other stuff.
If you just look at watching 'em go around.
Yeah.
So, I dunno.
Yeah.
Good answer.
I let you say.
Okay.
I let you say more than one there.
Yeah.
That's so, okay, so we'll go back to, if you could read
one book to the horse world.
Let's say, if you could read three books to the horse world.
Everything from John Marie Denix.
Okay.
That's a great answer.
Good books'.
John Marie Denix.
Jean Marie Deis is a French vet. He's actually still alive and I think
he's written the best books about biomechanics, anatomy, uh, for horses.
Now.
His anatomy is more about jumping.
Yeah.
Um, than anything.
If it's for all horses, then it'd probably be the, what is it?
The veterinary owner's manual.
Mm-hmm.
Like, like literally just be that, like, just, that's horse care stuff.
Love it.
Most undervalued skill as a writer.
What's undervalued skill as a rider?
Simplicity.
Who is the greatest horseman or horse woman in history?
Eric Neve.
And last question, I have a feeling I know your answer.
Mares, stallions or geldings?
Oh, mares God.
Stallions are dumb and geldings are neutral.
And what are mares.
They're spicy, they're smart.
Carl, I will say I had pretty high expectations of this episode
and they totally met them.
Thank you for so much for coming on the podcast.
Thank you so much.
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