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All right, gentlemen, today, have I ever got a topic for you because I know each of us as
guys, whether we want to admit it or not, have been struggling with this.

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Wow...for at least a decade now.

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Is it okay to even talk to women at all, let alone share that you're interested in them in
some way, you know, romantically, or do you have to talk to women...

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And I'm talking about in the workplace or even

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.

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.

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away in handcuffs or something.

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My guest today, first of all, she's a woman, which is a good angle on this because, you
know, if it was just us dudes talking about this, how much meaning would that have

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vis-a-vis what women actually think?

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But she is also a clinical psychologist, which is very helpful.

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And a USA Today bestselling author of a book.

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You ready for this?

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You're going to love this title.

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Can I Say That?

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Why Free Speech Matters And How To Use It Fearlessly.

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My name is Scot McKay from X & Y Communications and I am your host today.

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And you can find me on social media, just about anywhere @scotmckay, with the exception of
Instagram, which is @realscotmckay.

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And you know, I've been talking to you about this subject for ages and

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Thanks, Scot.

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It's really good to be with you.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yeah.

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And I love the fact that you wrote an entire book on this.

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It was a best seller.

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So people are really interested in this topic.

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It's not something that we're weird for thinking about because I think a lot of guys can
think, well, you know, am I the only one who has a problem with this?

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Cause I see other guys out there talking to women.

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Yet I turn on the news and it seems like cancel culture is still a thing.

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Men are being considered toxic just for existing, let alone opening our mouths.

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What caused you to be interested in this topic in general?

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Yeah, well, I mean, the whole subject, as you said, there's issues of cancel culture and
toxic masculinity and

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I actually did a documentary with PragerU about uh what we call the myth of toxic
masculinity.

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I think a lot of just regular masculinity is misconstrued as being somehow toxic.

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So I mean, to me, that's like a whole other conversation that I'm interested in.

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But just as a psychologist, I was living in New York to answer your question about why I
wrote this book about the mental health benefits of free speech.

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I was living in New York for about 20 years and had become pretty used to censoring a lot
of what I thought in order to keep my business and media and academia relationships, know,

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the way they need to be to function in New York.

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And then we fled to COVID or fled to Florida during COVID and um

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being in the free state of Florida, I started really having a lot more diverse
conversations with people and I realized I could express myself better and that it was

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good for my cognitive and emotional and social health.

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And so that's why I wrote the book about the mental health benefits of free speech.

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Yeah, for sure.

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I mean, also like 90 % plus of my field leans left.

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And for reasons I don't fully understand free speech is currently politically coded as
being a right, red political issue.

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So therefore there's no psychologists that are really talking about the mental health
benefits of free speech.

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Psychologists are more talking about hate speech and bullying and toxic masculinity and
you know.

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uh So I felt like almost as a public service announcement, I needed to express the other
side of it, which is that, you know, saying what we really think, what we really believe

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and being able to hear other people say things we disagree with without, you know,
thinking our existence is being threatened, that all of that is actually important.

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Has there been any personal fallout for you from having written this book in that regard?

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totally, totally.

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I mean, so for example, Dr.

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Phil endorsed my book and

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hold on just a second.

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We're getting that feedback again.

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Yeah, I don't understand why that would be.

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Okay.

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ahead and put a space so Riverside doesn't freak out.

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And then let me ask you the question again.

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So has there been any political fallout per se from you having written this book that
affected you personally?

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Oh totally.

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So, I mean for example, Dr.

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Phil endorsed the book and I was scheduled to go on a podcast and then they canceled me
because they were like, well, look, if Dr.

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Phil likes you, you know, oh obviously this isn't going to work.

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And I had I had people unsubscribe from my newsletter.

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Again, ironically, because of Dr.

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Phil endorsing my book.

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And they said something about, like, I have a lot of social workers and psychologists in
my list.

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And the social worker who canceled was like, because of section six of the social worker
ethics code, I need to cancel you.

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And I wrote back a really nice note.

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And I was like, hey, can you please help me understand that?

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Like, what about section six is...

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Am I breaking in the ethics code?

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I'd really, truly like to understand.

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And they never ever, of course, wrote back.

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I mean, you know, a lot of doors have closed, but a lot of other doors have opened.

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um So, you know, that's just the way it goes, I guess.

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Yeah.

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You know, but I mean, there are some interesting things, though, you know, in the book
when it does come to men and women and communication.

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When we were talking, you know, before we um jumped on here,

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I was thinking about there's a particular vignette, like a little story in the book about
a woman.

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And she has kind of like a super feminist type boyfriend because she feels like that's the
kind that she's like supposed to have.

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But he's not really satisfying to her, but she can't admit that.

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She can't admit that to herself.

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And so what she does then is she em almost like unconsciously strikes up a flirtation with
this, em you know, really kind of very traditional masculine, almost like over the top

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actually guy who then when he asks her out after she's, you know, honestly been kind of
fostering a flirtation with him for quite some time, she then gets really angry and says

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he's creepy and he's harassing her, right?

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So it's kind of an example of what can happen when we stifle our speech long enough, we
start losing touch with what we even actually really think and what we even actually

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really want.

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When we're not authentic with other people and with ourselves, we basically go into
denial.

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And that's when we start having interactions with people that can be very confusing for
them.

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And I imagine your audience probably goes through that as men, where they're talking to
women and

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On one level, consciously or unconsciously, the woman wants that man to flirt with her and
come on to her.

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But on the other hand, it's like she doesn't, you know, because of all the really weird
messages that society sends to women as well, she can't really fully even admit to herself

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that she likes this, right?

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So she has to act to him and even maybe to herself like, this guy's so creepy.

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I wish he'd leave me alone.

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But then at the same time,

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She doesn't actually want him to leave her alone.

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So I do feel like it sucks for men and for women.

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No.

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Yeah, of course.

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all right.

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This will be cut out.

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This is, you know, sorry.

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You know, that's really a refreshing take for a lot of these guys to have a woman come on
and say, you know, here's how some women are.

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They are still female.

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They still are heterosexual women.

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They like how masculinity turns them on, but they have such a, such a twisted
understanding of how that mechanism operates, the whole alchemy of it, that they feel like

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they have to reject it because of what The Ya-Ya Sisterhood told them they should think or
what they should want, not what they're really feeling at...

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an archetypal personal level.

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It reminds me of a situation years ago, Chloe, that I did an interview with a feminist
outlet.

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And it was a very young, charming woman who interviewed me.

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And she and I got along great.

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And she said, off the record, Mr.

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McKay, I was like, please call me Scot.

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You know, I'm not your dad.

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Can I ask you a question?

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I said, sure.

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She goes, you know, around

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here around the newsroom, we're all feminists and we're all, you know, like the future is
female and men are toxic and patriarchy and stuff like this.

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But you know, I have a boyfriend and in the bedroom, I just love to be subservient.

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I just love to get on my knees and give him a blow job and have him dominate me and pull
my hair in bed.

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Am I weird?

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Should I change that?

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I said, I said, no, you're, you're perfectly normal.

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That all happens.

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And it's actually kind of fun.

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And you know, as long as he's not being abusive towards you and

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it's happening in a lot of bedrooms out there.

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She goes, Oh, thank you, Mr.

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McKay.

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I feel so much better now.

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That's what she said to me.

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And I'll never forget that conversation because I think it gets exactly to the heart,
albeit at a very visceral level of exactly what you're talking about.

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So here we are as guys walking on eggshells, while women, okay, women.

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mean, I guess heterosexuality doesn't even matter anymore because obviously women don't
like men.

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They clearly don't like sex, even though we're basically put here on earth to procreate,
right?

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And somehow men and women are adversarial odds with each other, even though we were
biologically even designed to be in partnership.

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And it's all so messed up.

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And yet people have been, and I'm going to use, go ahead and use the inflammatory term,
brainwashed into believing this is how things are.

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But they haven't been that way for millennia.

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Yet, all of sudden in the last, I don't know, I guess it's 1968, right?

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All of a sudden men are terrible.

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They're responsible for everything that's ever happened that's bad in the universe.

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Toxic masculinity.

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And I do want to talk about that with you, by the way, because I want to hear your take on
it.

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And everything that happened before, you know, the women's movement, basically, was just
patriarchal abuse, you know, to women.

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Women have just been just treated horribly over the years.

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And

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yet, men are told all the time in the media, culminating with that horrible Gillette
commercial about five or six years ago, which most men thought was perfectly okay.

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And it's like, wow, you can't read between the lines on that one even.

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That's how far gone we are as men into, you know, you know, taking the wrong pill here.

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Men were told, do better.

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You know, at the height of cancel culture, and I do believe thankfully, it's waning a
little bit, I think sanity is starting to come back into the general populace.

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I think we're sick of this.

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You know, I think we were fooled once by COVID and we're not going to be fooled twice
about the whole stay away from each other thing in general.

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Men were told just to do better and stop being toxic.

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And we weren't told what that meant.

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Like, okay, masculinity is bad.

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You know, we don't want to be abusive towards women.

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We don't want to beat people up.

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We don't want to kill and pillage villages and, you know, blow some marks, cigar smoke at
people and stuff like that.

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But "do better" is just basically a power play.

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Meanwhile,

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what have feminists done?

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They've taken virtuous masculinity, right?

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Leadership, providing and protecting, and they've garnered that for themselves to be the
captains of industry and the leaders, and we're gonna provide and protect for ourselves.

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I need a man like a fish needs a bicycle, you know, that kind of thing.

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And it's left men going, well, what do we do?

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Stand back because the future is female and play cheerleader?

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And so you have a legion of men who are actually good guys.

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And you know, the, the, linchpin of cancel culture, what is it?

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Label someone what they're afraid of being.

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You know, give someone a label that's the last thing they want to be labeled.

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And then they'll get into apologetic mode and kowtow to you.

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That's why everybody's a racist.

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Everybody's a communist depending on which side of the aisle you're leaning towards
because no one wants to be a racist or a common communist.

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So we'll do all the apologies, et cetera, to keep from doing that.

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So if we hate women or are some kind of misogynist, most good-hearted

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men who actually like women will go, no, no, I'm not.

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Let me prove it to you.

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All right.

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Well then come to my feminist rallies, start, you know, wearing the future is female pins
everywhere and defer to us and let us lead.

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And then these guys are surprised when none of the women who ordered this upon them are
sexually attracted to them.

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Yeah, if I were a man, I would definitely not be trying to spend time around women that
wanted to take me to a feminist rally or get me to wear a future is female, you know, pin.

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um I mean, I think a lot of those phrases like men are pigs or the future is female or,
you know, frankly, even the idea of having like a women's affinity group at work, but you

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can't have a men's affinity group.

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um I think a lot of that stuff, you know, truly makes no sense.

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um

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And again, if I were a man trying to talk to women, um presumably I'm looking for
enjoyable interactions with women, right?

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um Yeah, well, you should.

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But I mean, we don't want to operate in life based on what, "should be", right?

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We want to face reality because we'll be more successful that way.

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We'll get our own goals met.

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um

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So I would pursue interactions with women that even just have a look about them that
has...

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suggests that they conventionally embrace the idea of being a woman.

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However, that's not even a foolproof way to go about it, obviously.

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I mean,

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no.

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There's many women, you know, that that maybe look conventionally feminine, but they
don't, you know, respond that way.

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um Yeah, yeah, for sure.

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Right.

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Well, you can still even have tattoos and purple hair, but look actually, you know,
feminine, right?

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Like if that if that purple hair is kind of like, you know, groomed nicely and shiny and
those tattoos are on, you know, sort of like a, you know,

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um toned body or put together in a certain way.

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As a psychologist, we actually look at grooming and grooming and the way a person dresses
themselves all as um social signals.

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And so I would study those social signals.

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But one more interesting thing...

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about...

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Yeah, well, good.

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I brushed my teeth too.

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um

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way.

215
00:16:25,750 --> 00:16:26,651
Yeah.

216
00:16:27,578 --> 00:16:29,162
They look expensive.

217
00:16:29,389 --> 00:16:40,723
well, probably true, probably true about the subject of toxic masculinity, you know, when
we think about say, like, you know, that usually gets lumped in with like machismo, right?

218
00:16:40,723 --> 00:16:50,127
I just thought, you know, it might be interesting to know that there's a flip side to
machismo, which almost never gets talked about, which is called marianismo.

219
00:16:50,127 --> 00:16:54,941
So if we think of machismo as being kind of like the over the top,

220
00:16:54,941 --> 00:17:03,443
you know, masculine behaviors to the point where it's like uh out of whack and kind of
destructive to the, you know, women around them.

221
00:17:03,503 --> 00:17:18,608
marianismo is when women are weaponizing their sense of victimhood, for example, to the
point where it becomes manipulative and actually toxic as well.

222
00:17:18,608 --> 00:17:23,433
So I just thought it might be nice to throw that into the mix so that next time

223
00:17:23,433 --> 00:17:32,580
the subject of machismo gets brought up into conversations, I think it would be nice if
people started bringing up marianismo which is the counterpart.

224
00:17:33,373 --> 00:17:35,004
.

225
00:17:35,004 --> 00:17:37,625
and I've never heard that term before.

226
00:17:38,166 --> 00:17:43,609
And I've actually researched its existence, unbeknownst to you, because you're a guest.

227
00:17:43,609 --> 00:17:55,369
But if these guys have listened to this show over the years, I have often noted that there
doesn't seem to be a female equivalent to machismo.

228
00:17:55,369 --> 00:17:58,250
Mm-hmm, it's called marianismo now you know.

229
00:18:05,993 --> 00:18:19,066
You know, I mean, if we're gonna use the word toxic, I mean, I don't like the word toxic
em because really what that means is something that's radioactive and deadly, right?

230
00:18:19,066 --> 00:18:19,797
You know, I mean...

231
00:18:19,797 --> 00:18:20,947
em

232
00:18:20,947 --> 00:18:28,149
I guess, and I think also that it disregards the fact that there's subjectivity around
these things, right?

233
00:18:28,149 --> 00:18:33,491
So one woman's toxic masculinity is another woman's mountain man, right?

234
00:18:33,491 --> 00:18:48,015
So, and I think toxic as well, it implies like a uh clinical threshold or something where
what we're really talking about is just personal preferences, right?

235
00:18:48,015 --> 00:18:48,789
So...

236
00:18:48,789 --> 00:19:01,746
um Yeah, I mean, but if we would think of toxic masculinity as a valid term, which I'm not
sure I do, um then yeah, I would say marianismo would be the counterpart of like a toxic

237
00:19:01,746 --> 00:19:02,997
femininity.

238
00:19:02,997 --> 00:19:12,553
But I prefer to think of these things instead of toxic as more just kind of too intense
for me or out of whack for me, you know, or whatever.

239
00:19:12,553 --> 00:19:15,944
Because like I said, I think that there are some people that

240
00:19:16,627 --> 00:19:19,357
that like it, there's a lid for every pot, right?

241
00:19:19,357 --> 00:19:21,388
.

242
00:19:21,388 --> 00:19:26,331
let me go ahead and maybe put some wheels on this car.

243
00:19:27,272 --> 00:19:32,395
This is something I think about every day, so I've thought it through pretty extensively.

244
00:19:34,264 --> 00:19:41,010
Machismo to me would encompass those things that we as dudes do to impress each other.

245
00:19:42,232 --> 00:19:44,534
Not even, I mean, Not...

246
00:19:44,534 --> 00:19:52,652
just tangentially related to the idea of masculinity as the catalyst of sexual attraction
that ignites femininity.

247
00:19:52,652 --> 00:19:55,224
See, I have a weird, apparently weird view.

248
00:19:55,224 --> 00:19:59,438
It makes perfect sense to me and the guys I coach, but, and it works.

249
00:19:59,450 --> 00:20:07,024
But I seem to be an outlier in thinking this, that the purpose of masculinity and
femininity is to catalyze sexual attraction.

250
00:20:07,024 --> 00:20:08,545
Because you got male, you got female.

251
00:20:08,545 --> 00:20:10,286
That's how we make babies.

252
00:20:10,566 --> 00:20:19,331
And I consider masculinity and femininity the psychosocial components of sexuality.

253
00:20:19,611 --> 00:20:23,213
when I, It seems perfectly natural, right?

254
00:20:23,213 --> 00:20:25,504
Otherwise, what is sex reduced to?

255
00:20:25,504 --> 00:20:26,195
Body parts.

256
00:20:26,195 --> 00:20:27,095
And that's...

257
00:20:27,371 --> 00:20:29,753
universally offensive to most women, right?

258
00:20:29,753 --> 00:20:37,099
If it's just about, you know, mixing body parts, it's like, ew, that feels so rough and so
surfacey and superficial.

259
00:20:37,237 --> 00:20:45,397
because what also masculinity and femininity include is also a little bit about
personality traits.

260
00:20:45,397 --> 00:20:54,217
And so, as you said, on one level, masculinity and femininity is about making babies, but
it's also about raising them.

261
00:20:54,557 --> 00:20:57,983
you're also, yeah, so.

262
00:20:57,983 --> 00:21:04,789
men and women are for on this planet, why we have heterosexuality, why there are two
genders, why there are two sexes.

263
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:06,201
All of that is masculine feminine.

264
00:21:06,201 --> 00:21:06,761
Yeah.

265
00:21:06,761 --> 00:21:19,641
mean, as you said, part of it is about catalyzing like the sexual interaction, but it's
also about screening for and attracting and looking for, you know, a partner that's that's

266
00:21:19,641 --> 00:21:27,321
going to be able to say, provide and protect or, you know, nurture and, you know, create
or, know, whatever it is.

267
00:21:27,321 --> 00:21:30,401
So, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

268
00:21:30,519 --> 00:21:35,869
Okay, so machismo would be those things we as guys do to impress each other.

269
00:21:35,869 --> 00:21:38,686
You know, build up our hot rods...

270
00:21:39,087 --> 00:21:46,924
Well, and it may or may not work if it's merely machismo as opposed to truly a masculine
trait as women would define it and be turned on by it.

271
00:21:46,924 --> 00:21:54,560
So for example, we go play golf and drink, uh you know, we burp and we fart, we cut crude
jokes with each other.

272
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,983
uh All of that is macho.

273
00:21:58,606 --> 00:22:05,780
You know, the motorcycles, the guy stuff, you know, the, the, the foot, the football
games, et cetera, et cetera.

274
00:22:06,261 --> 00:22:08,202
That would all be considered macho.

275
00:22:08,202 --> 00:22:14,627
And some women would weaponize that against us going, see, because you don't want to go
shoe shopping with me, you're toxic.

276
00:22:14,627 --> 00:22:16,088
You know, because you watch football.

277
00:22:16,088 --> 00:22:17,869
And I think that's an overreaction.

278
00:22:17,869 --> 00:22:27,555
But the problem is it seems like feminism has insulated itself against any counter punch
or counterpoint, I guess would be the non-

279
00:22:27,555 --> 00:22:29,356
toxic masculine way to put it, right?

280
00:22:29,356 --> 00:22:39,662
Um, by, there not being a female equivalent, but we all know women do things because
they're women that aren't necessarily going to be what attracts men to them, like going

281
00:22:39,662 --> 00:22:47,786
shoe shopping or, having GNO on Friday night and all the girls are giggling until they
snort drinking apple martinis, or chocolatinis, or something.

282
00:22:47,786 --> 00:22:48,897
We don't want any part of that.

283
00:22:48,897 --> 00:22:50,368
We don't want to go to the mall.

284
00:22:50,368 --> 00:22:51,608
We don't want to go shopping.

285
00:22:51,608 --> 00:22:56,851
Um, but it's a, but for most men, it's okay that women do that.

286
00:23:00,268 --> 00:23:01,680
No, no

287
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:07,806
part that you talked about in terms of women weaponizing their femininity against men more
about marianismo?

288
00:23:07,806 --> 00:23:08,898
Explain a little bit more.

289
00:23:08,898 --> 00:23:13,310
So to answer that, I want to go back first to what you said about machismo.

290
00:23:13,310 --> 00:23:17,523
So you were like, oh, know, it's like, you know, burping and stuff like that.

291
00:23:17,523 --> 00:23:21,485
I don't I don't view that as as, you know, as machismo.

292
00:23:21,485 --> 00:23:32,432
So to me, the the macho, by the way, is uh is just kind of like the normal, healthy sort
of side of like, you know, masculinity.

293
00:23:32,432 --> 00:23:34,363
And then machismo is like when

294
00:23:34,363 --> 00:23:37,240
us guys will think burping and farting is quite healthy.

295
00:23:38,005 --> 00:23:39,676
In private, not around the women.

296
00:23:39,676 --> 00:23:51,900
I'm just saying when I look at machismo or macho behaviors, I'm talking about building
things, paying for things, carrying things, doing things that directly relate to a

297
00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:59,313
masculine capacity um of strength and output, right?

298
00:23:59,349 --> 00:24:10,814
um And then when it's, I think it crosses the threshold from being things that men are
doing that are impressive or productive into like the machismo, you know, kind of like

299
00:24:10,814 --> 00:24:16,677
negative space when it no longer is about impressing or creating, but about controlling.

300
00:24:16,677 --> 00:24:26,701
So it's like, no, he's beating his wife or, you know, he's um locking down the bank
account, you know, to the point where, you know, she...

301
00:24:26,741 --> 00:24:29,864
has to ask if she can buy a pack of gum or whatever.

302
00:24:29,864 --> 00:24:31,245
That's when he's...

303
00:24:31,806 --> 00:24:32,456
Exactly...

304
00:24:32,456 --> 00:24:35,008
And so now I'll give you the female.

305
00:24:35,069 --> 00:24:35,599
Yeah.

306
00:24:35,599 --> 00:24:38,352
And now I can give you the female counterpart.

307
00:24:38,352 --> 00:24:48,840
So if the female in the positive side, like so, you know, just the giving and nurturing
side of women.

308
00:24:49,043 --> 00:24:58,781
You know, would be like, you know, I can put my needs aside to, you know, take care of and
support my partner or take care of the kids or whatever.

309
00:24:58,781 --> 00:25:10,511
But then it gets into the toxic side when she's no longer again doing it to, you know,
impress or support, but she's doing it to to control and to be manipulative.

310
00:25:10,511 --> 00:25:17,497
So, you know, inventing tears or becoming the martyr.

311
00:25:17,873 --> 00:25:23,777
Deriving a lot of power out of the victim role, those kinds of things.

312
00:25:23,777 --> 00:25:36,266
So again, I think that there's a healthy macho space and a healthy, you know, feminine
space, but then when they get it twisted, we get into the machismo and the marianismo

313
00:25:36,266 --> 00:25:37,326
sides.

314
00:25:45,072 --> 00:25:45,829
Mm-hmm.

315
00:25:45,829 --> 00:25:53,688
between macho and machismo and feminine and marianismo because I think that's where this
matrix you're drawing is.

316
00:25:53,688 --> 00:25:54,088
Yeah.

317
00:25:54,088 --> 00:26:03,172
So the healthy macho side, you know, again, is like building things, paying for things,
carrying things, providing and protecting.

318
00:26:03,172 --> 00:26:06,953
It crosses and that's when it's impressive and productive.

319
00:26:06,953 --> 00:26:11,335
It crosses into the negative side when it becomes just more about controlling.

320
00:26:11,335 --> 00:26:15,283
So instead of using his strength to build things and carry things,

321
00:26:15,283 --> 00:26:18,975
he's using his strength to smack around his wife.

322
00:26:18,975 --> 00:26:21,557
He's not providing and protecting.

323
00:26:21,557 --> 00:26:33,755
He's, you know, controlling and, you know, limiting and, and then again, on the female
side, the healthy feminine space is, you know, I can put aside my needs to support my

324
00:26:33,755 --> 00:26:40,851
partner, to support my child, I can, you know, endure the pain of childbirth or whatever,
because

325
00:26:40,851 --> 00:26:54,452
I want to, um I don't mind some suffering to, um it's just, it's part of a feminine role
in some ways is there's a sense of sacrifice and uh being a helper, so to speak.

326
00:26:54,452 --> 00:26:55,372
Then it...

327
00:26:59,316 --> 00:27:00,847
Exactly, exactly.

328
00:27:00,847 --> 00:27:03,720
But they're doing it in a leadership way.

329
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,223
And then the toxic form is when they're not a leader, they're a tyrant.

330
00:27:08,243 --> 00:27:10,535
And then in the female sense,

331
00:27:10,535 --> 00:27:15,167
she's sacrificing in a helper, nurturer way.

332
00:27:15,167 --> 00:27:20,539
And then when it becomes toxic, it's when she's doing it in a manipulative, martyr way.

333
00:27:20,539 --> 00:27:25,912
Mm-hmm.

334
00:27:25,912 --> 00:27:26,447
Mm-hmm.

335
00:27:26,447 --> 00:27:26,757
that's fair.

336
00:27:26,757 --> 00:27:28,978
I think mostly you and I are on the same page.

337
00:27:28,978 --> 00:27:32,119
I think I have it divided into three tiers on the men's side.

338
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:38,602
I have that masculinity, which attracts women, the things that men do to impress each
other.

339
00:27:38,602 --> 00:27:46,225
you know, we're not going to pretend, you know, burning rubber in our new car just to
impress a woman is actually going to impress her, for example.

340
00:27:46,225 --> 00:27:50,787
Whereas, you know, making her feel safe and comfortable in your presence really would turn
her on.

341
00:27:50,787 --> 00:27:56,796
And then the toxicity is a layer above that where I'm perverting the virtue and getting it
backwards.

342
00:27:56,796 --> 00:28:03,861
Yeah, so what you're describing there too of like the burning rubber and stuff like that,
I would call that masculine playfulness.

343
00:28:04,247 --> 00:28:04,647
Right.

344
00:28:04,647 --> 00:28:04,967
Yeah.

345
00:28:04,967 --> 00:28:08,849
But I think colloquially, at least people would say that's the macho stuff.

346
00:28:08,849 --> 00:28:12,511
Like this guy's going into the gym and he's acting like a guy.

347
00:28:12,511 --> 00:28:24,636
But, you know, a lot of the macho guys overlook that layer that I would say is actually
more attractive to women, which is I am a provider and a protector.

348
00:28:24,636 --> 00:28:27,097
I am making women feel safe and comfortable in my presence.

349
00:28:27,097 --> 00:28:30,958
I can calm any situation.

350
00:28:31,027 --> 00:28:32,179
I can...

351
00:28:37,905 --> 00:28:38,716
No, you're right.

352
00:28:38,716 --> 00:28:39,156
You're right.

353
00:28:39,156 --> 00:28:48,433
There's a side of masculinity that is about attracting women and there's a side of
masculinity that's just about men spending time with other men.

354
00:28:48,433 --> 00:28:48,947
Yeah.

355
00:28:48,947 --> 00:28:55,869
I see it as like oil refinery, you know, to get the gasoline, you got to get rid of the
slag.

356
00:28:55,869 --> 00:28:57,700
And I think the slag is still going to be there.

357
00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:01,851
And it's probably, you know, the stuff men do with each other to hang out.

358
00:29:01,851 --> 00:29:03,511
But I mean, that's my own interpretation.

359
00:29:03,511 --> 00:29:04,651
Okay, good.

360
00:29:04,651 --> 00:29:08,943
So where did we get this wrong in terms of talking to each other?

361
00:29:08,943 --> 00:29:17,967
Why do men, as macho as we are, right, assume women are all going to be these marianistic
types who are going to

362
00:29:17,967 --> 00:29:24,427
play the victim role and send us to HR and call, you know, call the cops on us simply for
saying hello to them.

363
00:29:24,427 --> 00:29:34,567
Cause I'll get these, you know, newspaper clippings from guys in the UK where an entire
county in Britain has, has banned men from even talking to women.

364
00:29:34,567 --> 00:29:36,967
And it's a felony to do so.

365
00:29:36,967 --> 00:29:38,467
And they're like, see, see?

366
00:29:38,467 --> 00:29:42,827
So I mean, a lot of guys like to proof text this because they're getting angry at women
for being angry at them.

367
00:29:42,827 --> 00:29:46,427
And it becomes a big, you know, vortex of doom.

368
00:29:47,822 --> 00:29:59,577
Where can we practically start, Chloe as men if we have kind of found ourselves even
subconsciously sometimes, frankly, thinking it's not okay for me to be a man, first of

369
00:29:59,577 --> 00:30:00,258
all.

370
00:30:00,258 --> 00:30:06,860
It's especially not okay for me to be a heterosexual man who's interested, God forbid,
sexually in a female human being.

371
00:30:07,021 --> 00:30:10,482
And third, practically speaking, what do I do about it?

372
00:30:10,482 --> 00:30:11,933
How can I start talking to women again?

373
00:30:11,933 --> 00:30:13,003
What say you?

374
00:30:13,126 --> 00:30:15,327
Yeah, well, I think it's a very valid concern.

375
00:30:15,327 --> 00:30:25,197
I mean, and I say this as a clinical psychologist, I've sat with many women in private who
share with me like it's their deep dark secret, you know, that they would just really like

376
00:30:25,197 --> 00:30:29,741
to be, you know, a homemaker and have kids, you know, and they're, you know,

377
00:30:30,145 --> 00:30:37,700
kind of like high powered, you know, New York, um either executives or, you know, up and
coming, you know, junior associates and stuff.

378
00:30:37,700 --> 00:30:43,274
And I think the thing about women is that, you know, we're actually very high on
agreeableness.

379
00:30:43,274 --> 00:30:56,023
And so if we're socialized to feel like what we're supposed to do is to do really well in
school and really well in the workforce, and then we're also socialized and taught, you

380
00:30:56,023 --> 00:30:58,997
know, well, men are toxic and boys are icky and...

381
00:30:58,997 --> 00:31:03,897
I talked to these really well-meaning set of grandparents recently.

382
00:31:03,897 --> 00:31:06,677
They were really wonderful people.

383
00:31:06,677 --> 00:31:10,437
And they were like, yeah, we're telling our granddaughter that she's not...

384
00:31:10,437 --> 00:31:16,357
You know, they were playful, but she's not allowed to get married until she's 32.

385
00:31:16,357 --> 00:31:18,857
She's got to have her career first.

386
00:31:18,957 --> 00:31:20,317
I'm like, oh.

387
00:31:20,457 --> 00:31:27,357
They mean well when they tell women to just put boys on the back burner

388
00:31:28,743 --> 00:31:30,394
until they're in their 30s.

389
00:31:30,394 --> 00:31:33,256
And then the women dutifully do that.

390
00:31:33,556 --> 00:31:42,823
But it really doesn't have a good result because then of course the woman is all of a
sudden 32 and dealing with her biological clock.

391
00:31:42,823 --> 00:31:57,213
But so anyway, back to what you said, I think that em women have been told that men are
toxic to the point where men are correct in recognizing that a large swath of the women

392
00:31:57,213 --> 00:32:07,036
that they may try to approach that those women are going to be unable or unwilling to
receive that um productively.

393
00:32:07,036 --> 00:32:19,369
And there's really nothing that men can do about that, unfortunately, except to learn how
to discover it quickly so that you can move on to the next quickly.

394
00:32:19,369 --> 00:32:24,969
And you can do that just even simply by making eye contact and saying

395
00:32:24,969 --> 00:32:28,151
good morning to someone in a pleasant tone.

396
00:32:28,151 --> 00:32:34,356
And if she responds in any sort of a friendly way, well, great.

397
00:32:34,356 --> 00:32:38,279
Then you can build on that next time you see her in the coffee room.

398
00:32:38,279 --> 00:32:43,112
But if she looks at you and goes, ah good morning, you know what I mean?

399
00:32:43,112 --> 00:32:46,564
Like it's a strange thing that you said that.

400
00:32:46,805 --> 00:32:52,209
Just thank God that she made it super clear for you so that you don't have to waste any
more time on that.

401
00:32:52,209 --> 00:32:52,903
uh

402
00:32:52,903 --> 00:32:53,604
a bullet there.

403
00:32:53,604 --> 00:32:54,548
Yeah.

404
00:32:54,678 --> 00:32:55,637
Thank

405
00:32:56,365 --> 00:32:57,655
I think that's good insight.

406
00:32:57,655 --> 00:33:00,956
um will add to it two things.

407
00:33:01,016 --> 00:33:04,097
First of all, I mean, this depends on your geography.

408
00:33:04,097 --> 00:33:15,520
think if you're in the Bay Area or DC or New York, maybe it's 50-50, or there are more
women who are, you know, not in a good frame of mind towards men.

409
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:21,782
you know, certainly where I live, I take guys out in field and it's 99-1 Chloe.

410
00:33:21,782 --> 00:33:25,443
The women are just very sweet and kind and everybody really

411
00:33:25,517 --> 00:33:34,784
regardless of all the rumors of hate and division on television, most people don't want to
talk about politics anymore.

412
00:33:34,784 --> 00:33:40,017
And they really just want to live their lives, be happy and get along with each other,
black, white, gay, straight, et cetera.

413
00:33:40,478 --> 00:33:45,051
And that includes men and women and guys who come here and do in-field with me...

414
00:33:45,051 --> 00:33:48,523
And if you guys have ever thought about that, go ahead and call me and talk about it.

415
00:33:48,523 --> 00:33:50,335
It might be the best investment you've ever made.

416
00:33:50,335 --> 00:33:53,966
What I do is I take guys out in field, guys just like you listening and

417
00:33:53,966 --> 00:34:03,130
If you've ever had any problem talking to women or you'd like to really get that handled
in one four-day stint with me, it's life changing because what we do is we go out Chloe

418
00:34:03,130 --> 00:34:05,981
and we talk to a hundred women.

419
00:34:06,261 --> 00:34:08,062
It's mentally exhausting.

420
00:34:08,062 --> 00:34:09,942
It's an extreme sport.

421
00:34:10,903 --> 00:34:21,927
And some of those, some of those conversations can last up to a half an hour once, once we
get rolling and guys are universally shocked at how sweet, kind, and adorable women are.

422
00:34:22,651 --> 00:34:34,364
And how if you just, if you approach with something that's fun and playful and brings out
that spirit of enjoyment in women, they'll get right into the conversation with you and

423
00:34:34,364 --> 00:34:35,074
enjoy it.

424
00:34:35,074 --> 00:34:39,256
And the next thing you know, you know, I'm a happily married guy and I still take guys out
in field.

425
00:34:39,256 --> 00:34:41,576
And this is with my wife's blessing and everything.

426
00:34:41,576 --> 00:34:50,359
Sometimes she even goes out with us, but so I don't ever let it get sexual, but it's
simply about being charming and letting women feel safe and comfortable with you.

427
00:34:50,359 --> 00:34:51,949
And when they feel that way,

428
00:34:52,269 --> 00:34:56,032
they like you and guys will say, my goodness, you could have asked her out.

429
00:34:56,032 --> 00:34:57,403
I said, yeah, I know.

430
00:34:57,604 --> 00:35:01,687
But I didn't obviously, because I'm not available.

431
00:35:01,687 --> 00:35:08,333
But it's life changing for guys to see this because women really aren't scary if we're not
scaring them.

432
00:35:08,934 --> 00:35:12,186
the premise, but hold on now, here's the icing on the cake.

433
00:35:12,186 --> 00:35:13,938
Then you can riff away, okay?

434
00:35:14,138 --> 00:35:16,821
Most of us as guys don't want to be scary.

435
00:35:16,821 --> 00:35:18,842
We're not trying to scare anybody.

436
00:35:18,842 --> 00:35:19,789
We've just been

437
00:35:19,789 --> 00:35:24,576
fed this lie frankly that we're scary by virtue of being a heterosexual male.

438
00:35:25,301 --> 00:35:26,101
Riff away.

439
00:35:26,101 --> 00:35:30,492
No, yeah, I'm so glad you shared that and it sounds it sounds amazing.

440
00:35:30,492 --> 00:35:36,484
There's there's actually a psychologist uh He passed away a few years ago, but he was one
of the greats.

441
00:35:36,484 --> 00:35:37,384
His name was Dr.

442
00:35:37,384 --> 00:35:51,488
Albert Ellis and em he actually had a fear of speaking to women and so what he did to get
himself over it Is what we would in psychology call exposure therapy em is he sat, you

443
00:35:51,488 --> 00:35:54,207
know in Central Park and forced himself

444
00:35:54,207 --> 00:35:59,101
to ask the next 100 women he saw for their phone number.

445
00:35:59,101 --> 00:36:02,604
And so he did that all day long in Central Park.

446
00:36:02,604 --> 00:36:05,367
And it really just got him over it.

447
00:36:05,367 --> 00:36:14,154
He had another funny one too to get over social anxiety, which was to go on the subway and
announce every stop.

448
00:36:14,154 --> 00:36:15,175
You know what I mean?

449
00:36:15,175 --> 00:36:22,601
Because it just put himself in awkward situations just to teach himself that indeed he
could handle it.

450
00:36:22,835 --> 00:36:36,154
I would join you in encouraging anyone listening that feels like they just freeze around
women that, you know, Scot, you're offering to just spend a few days and move them through

451
00:36:36,154 --> 00:36:36,264
it.

452
00:36:36,264 --> 00:36:39,777
I mean, what would a guy have to lose, right?

453
00:36:39,777 --> 00:36:41,092
And as you said, it can be life-changing.

454
00:36:41,092 --> 00:36:44,320
I think men and women are meant to be together.

455
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:51,827
And so if somebody feels like they just have a block, I would encourage them, you know, to
allow themselves to get past it.

456
00:36:51,827 --> 00:37:05,541
And I'm glad to hear what you're saying that, you know, women everywhere are not shut down
and nasty, because I do admit I've seen a lot of it, but it's also, yeah, but I've seen a

457
00:37:05,541 --> 00:37:08,902
lot of women too that are truly just craving a guy.

458
00:37:08,902 --> 00:37:16,177
And I'm happily married myself, by the way, I just wanna say I've been happily married,
you know, for 12 years.

459
00:37:16,177 --> 00:37:16,977
So.

460
00:37:17,045 --> 00:37:19,765
But I did write a book about dating as well, actually.

461
00:37:19,765 --> 00:37:20,645
It's called Dr.

462
00:37:20,645 --> 00:37:22,745
Chloe's 10 Commandments of Dating.

463
00:37:23,905 --> 00:37:25,265
Yeah, yeah, it actually is.

464
00:37:25,265 --> 00:37:26,585
It's on Amazon.

465
00:37:27,825 --> 00:37:28,785
Yeah.

466
00:37:29,985 --> 00:37:31,505
Yeah, for sure.

467
00:37:31,985 --> 00:37:38,085
Yeah, so and I have one more book too, which is called Nervous Energy Harness the Power of
Your Anxiety.

468
00:37:38,085 --> 00:37:40,233
And it kind of fits with what you're doing.

469
00:37:40,233 --> 00:37:48,461
because the premise of that book is that the healthy function of anxiety is to stimulate
preparation behaviors and it unpacks ways to do that.

470
00:37:48,461 --> 00:37:59,041
But so if somebody were anxious about meeting and talking to women, the preparation
behavior is to go get some guidance, get some coaching and do something about it.

471
00:37:59,041 --> 00:38:01,703
So I love what you're doing.

472
00:38:01,891 --> 00:38:08,614
Well, I mean, I already know I want to have you back on the show to discuss that book,
because that's a fantastic topic.

473
00:38:08,614 --> 00:38:11,555
And we're always looking for unique ones around here.

474
00:38:11,555 --> 00:38:22,840
So what would you tell guys if they're struggling right now with even interacting with
women because this paralyzing fear that something's going to...

475
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,762
that something bad is going to happen as a result?

476
00:38:25,762 --> 00:38:29,208
What are the first action steps, practically speaking, for those guys?

477
00:38:29,208 --> 00:38:32,830
I think it's a really important rubric to look at there.

478
00:38:32,830 --> 00:38:41,215
So to first of all, ask yourself, do I have this fear because of a genuine actual pattern
of experiences?

479
00:38:41,215 --> 00:38:45,459
And if you do make a list of what those experiences are

480
00:38:45,459 --> 00:38:49,991
so that you can look at them and understand what went wrong there.

481
00:38:49,991 --> 00:38:54,873
Were you barking up the wrong tree repeatedly and not seeing the signals?

482
00:38:54,993 --> 00:38:58,454
Were you going about things in a way that didn't make sense?

483
00:38:58,454 --> 00:39:00,075
Understand what happened.

484
00:39:00,075 --> 00:39:05,407
Or do you actually have no history of this, but it's just, it's kind of an irrational
fear.

485
00:39:05,407 --> 00:39:14,401
Because the way that you respond to that scenario that you described, Scot, is going to
vary depending on the context around it.

486
00:39:14,789 --> 00:39:22,775
The first thing we want to do is appraise the actual situation and then, you know, that
will shape the best way to move forward.

487
00:39:22,831 --> 00:39:26,973
I think that is fantastic and dead accurate insight.

488
00:39:26,973 --> 00:39:30,251
Cause I'll have guys who come to me and go, I can't get any women to go out with me.

489
00:39:30,251 --> 00:39:32,316
Well, how many women have you asked out?

490
00:39:33,537 --> 00:39:34,157
None.

491
00:39:34,157 --> 00:39:39,620
So there's no practical basis for their fear and loathing.

492
00:39:39,620 --> 00:39:41,361
They just have made this assumption.

493
00:39:41,361 --> 00:39:45,223
Women don't want to talk to them that I'll get rejected or that I'm bothering women.

494
00:39:45,223 --> 00:39:48,245
It used to be men were afraid of rejection.

495
00:39:48,245 --> 00:39:52,624
Nowadays that's morphed into I'm afraid I'm bothering women with my presence.

496
00:39:52,624 --> 00:39:55,084
And yet they haven't even put it to the test.

497
00:39:55,264 --> 00:40:03,384
And I always tell guys, you know, if you talk to five or 10 women and they're attractive
to you, and they're the kind of women you would like to go out with theoretically, and you

498
00:40:03,384 --> 00:40:13,504
have a good experience with that, you may be cured forever simply because you finally went
out and, you know, jumped in, jumped into the pool.

499
00:40:13,504 --> 00:40:21,805
And yet I do have guys who come to me and go, I can't even get within 10 feet of any woman
with her angrily waving me off and saying, get out of here.

500
00:40:21,805 --> 00:40:23,597
Well, then we have a creepiness problem.

501
00:40:23,597 --> 00:40:26,300
Then there's some self-work that we indeed need to do.

502
00:40:26,300 --> 00:40:35,098
But it's good to be able to accurately get a handle on what's going on there before we go
around prescribing what the solution is going to be.

503
00:40:35,098 --> 00:40:36,809
So I really appreciate that.

504
00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:38,064
Fantastic.

505
00:40:38,064 --> 00:40:41,126
Well, I'm glad you're out there for guys, Scot.

506
00:40:41,126 --> 00:40:45,768
You know, I can tell you obviously are going about that in a thoughtful way.

507
00:40:45,768 --> 00:40:49,069
So yeah, I'd love to come and chat again sometime.

508
00:40:49,069 --> 00:40:50,830
Yeah, and this has been a wonderful conversation.

509
00:40:50,830 --> 00:40:59,862
I feel like we could have talked about this subject for hours, but that'll just make guys
want to dive into your book a little bit more, which is again called Can I Say That?

510
00:40:59,862 --> 00:41:02,513
Why Free Speech Matters and How to Use It Fearlessly?

511
00:41:02,513 --> 00:41:08,124
And we'll put it up there with your other two books um at mountaintoppodcast.com/amazon.

512
00:41:08,124 --> 00:41:15,977
And if you guys are listening to this show within a few days of its release, certainly
within the first week of its release, that'll be right there at the top of my Amazon

513
00:41:15,977 --> 00:41:16,687
queue.

514
00:41:16,687 --> 00:41:17,517
Well,

515
00:41:17,539 --> 00:41:17,949
Dr.

516
00:41:17,949 --> 00:41:22,435
Chloe Carmichael, uh what a revelation and a joy to meet you.

517
00:41:22,435 --> 00:41:26,991
You're very charming and I think you're right on uh target with all of this stuff.

518
00:41:26,991 --> 00:41:36,722
And it's just been a fantastic show that went in a few ways, especially with marianismo
that uh I think are very good insights and bring a lot of value.

519
00:41:36,722 --> 00:41:37,404
Thank you.

520
00:41:37,404 --> 00:41:38,464
Thank you, Scot.

521
00:41:38,464 --> 00:41:42,046
It was a real pleasure and I look forward to the next time.

522
00:41:42,052 --> 00:41:43,073
Yeah, absolutely.

523
00:41:43,073 --> 00:41:49,317
Guys, listen, if you want to go out in-field with me and talk to women, you want to do
that?

524
00:41:49,317 --> 00:41:51,068
Talk to me.

525
00:41:51,068 --> 00:41:58,923
scot@mountaintoppodcast.com And, uh, I do about seven or eight of them a year, cause they
are exhausting, but you might be one of those guys.

526
00:41:58,923 --> 00:42:08,330
And if you're already thinking you are, and you're a man of means somewhat, so that you
can take me off the grid for four days, call me, call me or email me and let's talk about

527
00:42:08,330 --> 00:42:08,650
it.

528
00:42:08,650 --> 00:42:10,349
I would love to hear from you.

529
00:42:10,349 --> 00:42:13,391
And also, you know, guys, there are lots of other resources there for you.

530
00:42:13,391 --> 00:42:17,523
If you have this issue, The Man's Approach is a great program.

531
00:42:17,523 --> 00:42:29,029
have a little audio called "Yes, And..." which you can get right off the
mountaintoppodcast.com site that teaches you how to use uh the, first rule of improv to

532
00:42:29,029 --> 00:42:32,872
really make wonderful conversations with women and most anybody really.

533
00:42:32,872 --> 00:42:36,073
And that's available for you at mountaintoppodcast.com.

534
00:42:36,073 --> 00:42:39,555
While you're there, visit Jocko Willink's company

535
00:42:39,625 --> 00:42:40,412
Origin in Maine.

536
00:42:40,412 --> 00:42:44,919
Guys, they have a whole new line of, of fall wear, winter wear.

537
00:42:44,919 --> 00:42:56,326
And, um, what I love about Jocko's jeans is you may never get into a bar fight or a tussle
or do these machismo things that we've been railing about all the time on this show today.

538
00:42:56,326 --> 00:42:58,852
But boy, you feel like you could, while you're in your jeans.

539
00:42:58,852 --> 00:43:02,810
You feel like, you know, you could stretch and do athletic things in these jeans.

540
00:43:02,810 --> 00:43:05,230
got, I got Jocko Willink's

541
00:43:06,233 --> 00:43:17,421
Bison Boots, bison leather boots and they're just fantastic and I wear them every chance I
can and they're just masculine and uh they're certainly not marianismo, and you could wear

542
00:43:17,421 --> 00:43:18,107
them anywhere...

543
00:43:18,107 --> 00:43:28,559
I guess I wouldn't wear them to play pickleball But you know when you're out about they're
a very masculine look You can get 10 % off anything you get from Origin in Maine by using

544
00:43:28,559 --> 00:43:35,323
the coupon code "mountain10" as you can when you go to my friends at herosoap.com

545
00:43:35,475 --> 00:43:36,712
or thekeyport.com.

546
00:43:36,712 --> 00:43:41,464
Use the coupon code "mountain10" with them as well.

547
00:43:41,746 --> 00:43:48,477
And until I talk to you again real soon, this is Scot McKay from X & Y Communications in
San Antonio, Texas.

548
00:43:48,477 --> 00:43:49,919
Be good out there.