All right, gentlemen, today, have I ever got a topic for you because I know each of us as guys, whether we want to admit it or not, have been struggling with this.
Wow...for at least a decade now.
Is it okay to even talk to women at all, let alone share that you're interested in them in some way, you know, romantically, or do you have to talk to women...
And I'm talking about in the workplace or even
.
away in handcuffs or something.
My guest today, first of all, she's a woman, which is a good angle on this because, you know, if it was just us dudes talking about this, how much meaning would that have
vis-a-vis what women actually think?
But she is also a clinical psychologist, which is very helpful.
And a USA Today bestselling author of a book.
You ready for this?
You're going to love this title.
Can I Say That?
Why Free Speech Matters And How To Use It Fearlessly.
My name is Scot McKay from X & Y Communications and I am your host today.
And you can find me on social media, just about anywhere @scotmckay, with the exception of Instagram, which is @realscotmckay.
And you know, I've been talking to you about this subject for ages and
Thanks, Scot.
It's really good to be with you.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
And I love the fact that you wrote an entire book on this.
It was a best seller.
So people are really interested in this topic.
It's not something that we're weird for thinking about because I think a lot of guys can think, well, you know, am I the only one who has a problem with this?
Cause I see other guys out there talking to women.
Yet I turn on the news and it seems like cancel culture is still a thing.
Men are being considered toxic just for existing, let alone opening our mouths.
What caused you to be interested in this topic in general?
Yeah, well, I mean, the whole subject, as you said, there's issues of cancel culture and toxic masculinity and
I actually did a documentary with PragerU about uh what we call the myth of toxic masculinity.
I think a lot of just regular masculinity is misconstrued as being somehow toxic.
So I mean, to me, that's like a whole other conversation that I'm interested in.
But just as a psychologist, I was living in New York to answer your question about why I wrote this book about the mental health benefits of free speech.
I was living in New York for about 20 years and had become pretty used to censoring a lot of what I thought in order to keep my business and media and academia relationships, know,
the way they need to be to function in New York.
And then we fled to COVID or fled to Florida during COVID and um
being in the free state of Florida, I started really having a lot more diverse conversations with people and I realized I could express myself better and that it was
good for my cognitive and emotional and social health.
And so that's why I wrote the book about the mental health benefits of free speech.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, also like 90 % plus of my field leans left.
And for reasons I don't fully understand free speech is currently politically coded as being a right, red political issue.
So therefore there's no psychologists that are really talking about the mental health benefits of free speech.
Psychologists are more talking about hate speech and bullying and toxic masculinity and you know.
uh So I felt like almost as a public service announcement, I needed to express the other side of it, which is that, you know, saying what we really think, what we really believe
and being able to hear other people say things we disagree with without, you know, thinking our existence is being threatened, that all of that is actually important.
Has there been any personal fallout for you from having written this book in that regard?
totally, totally.
I mean, so for example, Dr.
Phil endorsed my book and
hold on just a second.
We're getting that feedback again.
Yeah, I don't understand why that would be.
Okay.
ahead and put a space so Riverside doesn't freak out.
And then let me ask you the question again.
So has there been any political fallout per se from you having written this book that affected you personally?
Oh totally.
So, I mean for example, Dr.
Phil endorsed the book and I was scheduled to go on a podcast and then they canceled me because they were like, well, look, if Dr.
Phil likes you, you know, oh obviously this isn't going to work.
And I had I had people unsubscribe from my newsletter.
Again, ironically, because of Dr.
Phil endorsing my book.
And they said something about, like, I have a lot of social workers and psychologists in my list.
And the social worker who canceled was like, because of section six of the social worker ethics code, I need to cancel you.
And I wrote back a really nice note.
And I was like, hey, can you please help me understand that?
Like, what about section six is...
Am I breaking in the ethics code?
I'd really, truly like to understand.
And they never ever, of course, wrote back.
I mean, you know, a lot of doors have closed, but a lot of other doors have opened.
um So, you know, that's just the way it goes, I guess.
Yeah.
You know, but I mean, there are some interesting things, though, you know, in the book when it does come to men and women and communication.
When we were talking, you know, before we um jumped on here,
I was thinking about there's a particular vignette, like a little story in the book about a woman.
And she has kind of like a super feminist type boyfriend because she feels like that's the kind that she's like supposed to have.
But he's not really satisfying to her, but she can't admit that.
She can't admit that to herself.
And so what she does then is she em almost like unconsciously strikes up a flirtation with this, em you know, really kind of very traditional masculine, almost like over the top
actually guy who then when he asks her out after she's, you know, honestly been kind of fostering a flirtation with him for quite some time, she then gets really angry and says
he's creepy and he's harassing her, right?
So it's kind of an example of what can happen when we stifle our speech long enough, we start losing touch with what we even actually really think and what we even actually
really want.
When we're not authentic with other people and with ourselves, we basically go into denial.
And that's when we start having interactions with people that can be very confusing for them.
And I imagine your audience probably goes through that as men, where they're talking to women and
On one level, consciously or unconsciously, the woman wants that man to flirt with her and come on to her.
But on the other hand, it's like she doesn't, you know, because of all the really weird messages that society sends to women as well, she can't really fully even admit to herself
that she likes this, right?
So she has to act to him and even maybe to herself like, this guy's so creepy.
I wish he'd leave me alone.
But then at the same time,
She doesn't actually want him to leave her alone.
So I do feel like it sucks for men and for women.
No.
Yeah, of course.
all right.
This will be cut out.
This is, you know, sorry.
You know, that's really a refreshing take for a lot of these guys to have a woman come on and say, you know, here's how some women are.
They are still female.
They still are heterosexual women.
They like how masculinity turns them on, but they have such a, such a twisted understanding of how that mechanism operates, the whole alchemy of it, that they feel like
they have to reject it because of what The Ya-Ya Sisterhood told them they should think or what they should want, not what they're really feeling at...
an archetypal personal level.
It reminds me of a situation years ago, Chloe, that I did an interview with a feminist outlet.
And it was a very young, charming woman who interviewed me.
And she and I got along great.
And she said, off the record, Mr.
McKay, I was like, please call me Scot.
You know, I'm not your dad.
Can I ask you a question?
I said, sure.
She goes, you know, around
here around the newsroom, we're all feminists and we're all, you know, like the future is female and men are toxic and patriarchy and stuff like this.
But you know, I have a boyfriend and in the bedroom, I just love to be subservient.
I just love to get on my knees and give him a blow job and have him dominate me and pull my hair in bed.
Am I weird?
Should I change that?
I said, I said, no, you're, you're perfectly normal.
That all happens.
And it's actually kind of fun.
And you know, as long as he's not being abusive towards you and
it's happening in a lot of bedrooms out there.
She goes, Oh, thank you, Mr.
McKay.
I feel so much better now.
That's what she said to me.
And I'll never forget that conversation because I think it gets exactly to the heart, albeit at a very visceral level of exactly what you're talking about.
So here we are as guys walking on eggshells, while women, okay, women.
mean, I guess heterosexuality doesn't even matter anymore because obviously women don't like men.
They clearly don't like sex, even though we're basically put here on earth to procreate, right?
And somehow men and women are adversarial odds with each other, even though we were biologically even designed to be in partnership.
And it's all so messed up.
And yet people have been, and I'm going to use, go ahead and use the inflammatory term, brainwashed into believing this is how things are.
But they haven't been that way for millennia.
Yet, all of sudden in the last, I don't know, I guess it's 1968, right?
All of a sudden men are terrible.
They're responsible for everything that's ever happened that's bad in the universe.
Toxic masculinity.
And I do want to talk about that with you, by the way, because I want to hear your take on it.
And everything that happened before, you know, the women's movement, basically, was just patriarchal abuse, you know, to women.
Women have just been just treated horribly over the years.
And
yet, men are told all the time in the media, culminating with that horrible Gillette commercial about five or six years ago, which most men thought was perfectly okay.
And it's like, wow, you can't read between the lines on that one even.
That's how far gone we are as men into, you know, you know, taking the wrong pill here.
Men were told, do better.
You know, at the height of cancel culture, and I do believe thankfully, it's waning a little bit, I think sanity is starting to come back into the general populace.
I think we're sick of this.
You know, I think we were fooled once by COVID and we're not going to be fooled twice about the whole stay away from each other thing in general.
Men were told just to do better and stop being toxic.
And we weren't told what that meant.
Like, okay, masculinity is bad.
You know, we don't want to be abusive towards women.
We don't want to beat people up.
We don't want to kill and pillage villages and, you know, blow some marks, cigar smoke at people and stuff like that.
But "do better" is just basically a power play.
Meanwhile,
what have feminists done?
They've taken virtuous masculinity, right?
Leadership, providing and protecting, and they've garnered that for themselves to be the captains of industry and the leaders, and we're gonna provide and protect for ourselves.
I need a man like a fish needs a bicycle, you know, that kind of thing.
And it's left men going, well, what do we do?
Stand back because the future is female and play cheerleader?
And so you have a legion of men who are actually good guys.
And you know, the, the, linchpin of cancel culture, what is it?
Label someone what they're afraid of being.
You know, give someone a label that's the last thing they want to be labeled.
And then they'll get into apologetic mode and kowtow to you.
That's why everybody's a racist.
Everybody's a communist depending on which side of the aisle you're leaning towards because no one wants to be a racist or a common communist.
So we'll do all the apologies, et cetera, to keep from doing that.
So if we hate women or are some kind of misogynist, most good-hearted
men who actually like women will go, no, no, I'm not.
Let me prove it to you.
All right.
Well then come to my feminist rallies, start, you know, wearing the future is female pins everywhere and defer to us and let us lead.
And then these guys are surprised when none of the women who ordered this upon them are sexually attracted to them.
Yeah, if I were a man, I would definitely not be trying to spend time around women that wanted to take me to a feminist rally or get me to wear a future is female, you know, pin.
um I mean, I think a lot of those phrases like men are pigs or the future is female or, you know, frankly, even the idea of having like a women's affinity group at work, but you
can't have a men's affinity group.
um I think a lot of that stuff, you know, truly makes no sense.
um
And again, if I were a man trying to talk to women, um presumably I'm looking for enjoyable interactions with women, right?
um Yeah, well, you should.
But I mean, we don't want to operate in life based on what, "should be", right?
We want to face reality because we'll be more successful that way.
We'll get our own goals met.
um
So I would pursue interactions with women that even just have a look about them that has...
suggests that they conventionally embrace the idea of being a woman.
However, that's not even a foolproof way to go about it, obviously.
I mean,
no.
There's many women, you know, that that maybe look conventionally feminine, but they don't, you know, respond that way.
um Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Right.
Well, you can still even have tattoos and purple hair, but look actually, you know, feminine, right?
Like if that if that purple hair is kind of like, you know, groomed nicely and shiny and those tattoos are on, you know, sort of like a, you know,
um toned body or put together in a certain way.
As a psychologist, we actually look at grooming and grooming and the way a person dresses themselves all as um social signals.
And so I would study those social signals.
But one more interesting thing...
about...
Yeah, well, good.
I brushed my teeth too.
um
way.
Yeah.
They look expensive.
well, probably true, probably true about the subject of toxic masculinity, you know, when we think about say, like, you know, that usually gets lumped in with like machismo, right?
I just thought, you know, it might be interesting to know that there's a flip side to machismo, which almost never gets talked about, which is called marianismo.
So if we think of machismo as being kind of like the over the top,
you know, masculine behaviors to the point where it's like uh out of whack and kind of destructive to the, you know, women around them.
marianismo is when women are weaponizing their sense of victimhood, for example, to the point where it becomes manipulative and actually toxic as well.
So I just thought it might be nice to throw that into the mix so that next time
the subject of machismo gets brought up into conversations, I think it would be nice if people started bringing up marianismo which is the counterpart.
.
and I've never heard that term before.
And I've actually researched its existence, unbeknownst to you, because you're a guest.
But if these guys have listened to this show over the years, I have often noted that there doesn't seem to be a female equivalent to machismo.
Mm-hmm, it's called marianismo now you know.
You know, I mean, if we're gonna use the word toxic, I mean, I don't like the word toxic em because really what that means is something that's radioactive and deadly, right?
You know, I mean...
em
I guess, and I think also that it disregards the fact that there's subjectivity around these things, right?
So one woman's toxic masculinity is another woman's mountain man, right?
So, and I think toxic as well, it implies like a uh clinical threshold or something where what we're really talking about is just personal preferences, right?
So...
um Yeah, I mean, but if we would think of toxic masculinity as a valid term, which I'm not sure I do, um then yeah, I would say marianismo would be the counterpart of like a toxic
femininity.
But I prefer to think of these things instead of toxic as more just kind of too intense for me or out of whack for me, you know, or whatever.
Because like I said, I think that there are some people that
that like it, there's a lid for every pot, right?
.
let me go ahead and maybe put some wheels on this car.
This is something I think about every day, so I've thought it through pretty extensively.
Machismo to me would encompass those things that we as dudes do to impress each other.
Not even, I mean, Not...
just tangentially related to the idea of masculinity as the catalyst of sexual attraction that ignites femininity.
See, I have a weird, apparently weird view.
It makes perfect sense to me and the guys I coach, but, and it works.
But I seem to be an outlier in thinking this, that the purpose of masculinity and femininity is to catalyze sexual attraction.
Because you got male, you got female.
That's how we make babies.
And I consider masculinity and femininity the psychosocial components of sexuality.
when I, It seems perfectly natural, right?
Otherwise, what is sex reduced to?
Body parts.
And that's...
universally offensive to most women, right?
If it's just about, you know, mixing body parts, it's like, ew, that feels so rough and so surfacey and superficial.
because what also masculinity and femininity include is also a little bit about personality traits.
And so, as you said, on one level, masculinity and femininity is about making babies, but it's also about raising them.
you're also, yeah, so.
men and women are for on this planet, why we have heterosexuality, why there are two genders, why there are two sexes.
All of that is masculine feminine.
Yeah.
mean, as you said, part of it is about catalyzing like the sexual interaction, but it's also about screening for and attracting and looking for, you know, a partner that's that's
going to be able to say, provide and protect or, you know, nurture and, you know, create or, know, whatever it is.
So, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.
Okay, so machismo would be those things we as guys do to impress each other.
You know, build up our hot rods...
Well, and it may or may not work if it's merely machismo as opposed to truly a masculine trait as women would define it and be turned on by it.
So for example, we go play golf and drink, uh you know, we burp and we fart, we cut crude jokes with each other.
uh All of that is macho.
You know, the motorcycles, the guy stuff, you know, the, the, the foot, the football games, et cetera, et cetera.
That would all be considered macho.
And some women would weaponize that against us going, see, because you don't want to go shoe shopping with me, you're toxic.
You know, because you watch football.
And I think that's an overreaction.
But the problem is it seems like feminism has insulated itself against any counter punch or counterpoint, I guess would be the non-
toxic masculine way to put it, right?
Um, by, there not being a female equivalent, but we all know women do things because they're women that aren't necessarily going to be what attracts men to them, like going
shoe shopping or, having GNO on Friday night and all the girls are giggling until they snort drinking apple martinis, or chocolatinis, or something.
We don't want any part of that.
We don't want to go to the mall.
We don't want to go shopping.
Um, but it's a, but for most men, it's okay that women do that.
No, no
part that you talked about in terms of women weaponizing their femininity against men more about marianismo?
Explain a little bit more.
So to answer that, I want to go back first to what you said about machismo.
So you were like, oh, know, it's like, you know, burping and stuff like that.
I don't I don't view that as as, you know, as machismo.
So to me, the the macho, by the way, is uh is just kind of like the normal, healthy sort of side of like, you know, masculinity.
And then machismo is like when
us guys will think burping and farting is quite healthy.
In private, not around the women.
I'm just saying when I look at machismo or macho behaviors, I'm talking about building things, paying for things, carrying things, doing things that directly relate to a
masculine capacity um of strength and output, right?
um And then when it's, I think it crosses the threshold from being things that men are doing that are impressive or productive into like the machismo, you know, kind of like
negative space when it no longer is about impressing or creating, but about controlling.
So it's like, no, he's beating his wife or, you know, he's um locking down the bank account, you know, to the point where, you know, she...
has to ask if she can buy a pack of gum or whatever.
That's when he's...
Exactly...
And so now I'll give you the female.
Yeah.
And now I can give you the female counterpart.
So if the female in the positive side, like so, you know, just the giving and nurturing side of women.
You know, would be like, you know, I can put my needs aside to, you know, take care of and support my partner or take care of the kids or whatever.
But then it gets into the toxic side when she's no longer again doing it to, you know, impress or support, but she's doing it to to control and to be manipulative.
So, you know, inventing tears or becoming the martyr.
Deriving a lot of power out of the victim role, those kinds of things.
So again, I think that there's a healthy macho space and a healthy, you know, feminine space, but then when they get it twisted, we get into the machismo and the marianismo
sides.
Mm-hmm.
between macho and machismo and feminine and marianismo because I think that's where this matrix you're drawing is.
Yeah.
So the healthy macho side, you know, again, is like building things, paying for things, carrying things, providing and protecting.
It crosses and that's when it's impressive and productive.
It crosses into the negative side when it becomes just more about controlling.
So instead of using his strength to build things and carry things,
he's using his strength to smack around his wife.
He's not providing and protecting.
He's, you know, controlling and, you know, limiting and, and then again, on the female side, the healthy feminine space is, you know, I can put aside my needs to support my
partner, to support my child, I can, you know, endure the pain of childbirth or whatever, because
I want to, um I don't mind some suffering to, um it's just, it's part of a feminine role in some ways is there's a sense of sacrifice and uh being a helper, so to speak.
Then it...
Exactly, exactly.
But they're doing it in a leadership way.
And then the toxic form is when they're not a leader, they're a tyrant.
And then in the female sense,
she's sacrificing in a helper, nurturer way.
And then when it becomes toxic, it's when she's doing it in a manipulative, martyr way.
Mm-hmm.
that's fair.
I think mostly you and I are on the same page.
I think I have it divided into three tiers on the men's side.
I have that masculinity, which attracts women, the things that men do to impress each other.
you know, we're not going to pretend, you know, burning rubber in our new car just to impress a woman is actually going to impress her, for example.
Whereas, you know, making her feel safe and comfortable in your presence really would turn her on.
And then the toxicity is a layer above that where I'm perverting the virtue and getting it backwards.
Yeah, so what you're describing there too of like the burning rubber and stuff like that, I would call that masculine playfulness.
Right.
Yeah.
But I think colloquially, at least people would say that's the macho stuff.
Like this guy's going into the gym and he's acting like a guy.
But, you know, a lot of the macho guys overlook that layer that I would say is actually more attractive to women, which is I am a provider and a protector.
I am making women feel safe and comfortable in my presence.
I can calm any situation.
I can...
No, you're right.
You're right.
There's a side of masculinity that is about attracting women and there's a side of masculinity that's just about men spending time with other men.
Yeah.
I see it as like oil refinery, you know, to get the gasoline, you got to get rid of the slag.
And I think the slag is still going to be there.
And it's probably, you know, the stuff men do with each other to hang out.
But I mean, that's my own interpretation.
Okay, good.
So where did we get this wrong in terms of talking to each other?
Why do men, as macho as we are, right, assume women are all going to be these marianistic types who are going to
play the victim role and send us to HR and call, you know, call the cops on us simply for saying hello to them.
Cause I'll get these, you know, newspaper clippings from guys in the UK where an entire county in Britain has, has banned men from even talking to women.
And it's a felony to do so.
And they're like, see, see?
So I mean, a lot of guys like to proof text this because they're getting angry at women for being angry at them.
And it becomes a big, you know, vortex of doom.
Where can we practically start, Chloe as men if we have kind of found ourselves even subconsciously sometimes, frankly, thinking it's not okay for me to be a man, first of
all.
It's especially not okay for me to be a heterosexual man who's interested, God forbid, sexually in a female human being.
And third, practically speaking, what do I do about it?
How can I start talking to women again?
What say you?
Yeah, well, I think it's a very valid concern.
I mean, and I say this as a clinical psychologist, I've sat with many women in private who share with me like it's their deep dark secret, you know, that they would just really like
to be, you know, a homemaker and have kids, you know, and they're, you know,
kind of like high powered, you know, New York, um either executives or, you know, up and coming, you know, junior associates and stuff.
And I think the thing about women is that, you know, we're actually very high on agreeableness.
And so if we're socialized to feel like what we're supposed to do is to do really well in school and really well in the workforce, and then we're also socialized and taught, you
know, well, men are toxic and boys are icky and...
I talked to these really well-meaning set of grandparents recently.
They were really wonderful people.
And they were like, yeah, we're telling our granddaughter that she's not...
You know, they were playful, but she's not allowed to get married until she's 32.
She's got to have her career first.
I'm like, oh.
They mean well when they tell women to just put boys on the back burner
until they're in their 30s.
And then the women dutifully do that.
But it really doesn't have a good result because then of course the woman is all of a sudden 32 and dealing with her biological clock.
But so anyway, back to what you said, I think that em women have been told that men are toxic to the point where men are correct in recognizing that a large swath of the women
that they may try to approach that those women are going to be unable or unwilling to receive that um productively.
And there's really nothing that men can do about that, unfortunately, except to learn how to discover it quickly so that you can move on to the next quickly.
And you can do that just even simply by making eye contact and saying
good morning to someone in a pleasant tone.
And if she responds in any sort of a friendly way, well, great.
Then you can build on that next time you see her in the coffee room.
But if she looks at you and goes, ah good morning, you know what I mean?
Like it's a strange thing that you said that.
Just thank God that she made it super clear for you so that you don't have to waste any more time on that.
uh
a bullet there.
Yeah.
Thank
I think that's good insight.
um will add to it two things.
First of all, I mean, this depends on your geography.
think if you're in the Bay Area or DC or New York, maybe it's 50-50, or there are more women who are, you know, not in a good frame of mind towards men.
you know, certainly where I live, I take guys out in field and it's 99-1 Chloe.
The women are just very sweet and kind and everybody really
regardless of all the rumors of hate and division on television, most people don't want to talk about politics anymore.
And they really just want to live their lives, be happy and get along with each other, black, white, gay, straight, et cetera.
And that includes men and women and guys who come here and do in-field with me...
And if you guys have ever thought about that, go ahead and call me and talk about it.
It might be the best investment you've ever made.
What I do is I take guys out in field, guys just like you listening and
If you've ever had any problem talking to women or you'd like to really get that handled in one four-day stint with me, it's life changing because what we do is we go out Chloe
and we talk to a hundred women.
It's mentally exhausting.
It's an extreme sport.
And some of those, some of those conversations can last up to a half an hour once, once we get rolling and guys are universally shocked at how sweet, kind, and adorable women are.
And how if you just, if you approach with something that's fun and playful and brings out that spirit of enjoyment in women, they'll get right into the conversation with you and
enjoy it.
And the next thing you know, you know, I'm a happily married guy and I still take guys out in field.
And this is with my wife's blessing and everything.
Sometimes she even goes out with us, but so I don't ever let it get sexual, but it's simply about being charming and letting women feel safe and comfortable with you.
And when they feel that way,
they like you and guys will say, my goodness, you could have asked her out.
I said, yeah, I know.
But I didn't obviously, because I'm not available.
But it's life changing for guys to see this because women really aren't scary if we're not scaring them.
the premise, but hold on now, here's the icing on the cake.
Then you can riff away, okay?
Most of us as guys don't want to be scary.
We're not trying to scare anybody.
We've just been
fed this lie frankly that we're scary by virtue of being a heterosexual male.
Riff away.
No, yeah, I'm so glad you shared that and it sounds it sounds amazing.
There's there's actually a psychologist uh He passed away a few years ago, but he was one of the greats.
His name was Dr.
Albert Ellis and em he actually had a fear of speaking to women and so what he did to get himself over it Is what we would in psychology call exposure therapy em is he sat, you
know in Central Park and forced himself
to ask the next 100 women he saw for their phone number.
And so he did that all day long in Central Park.
And it really just got him over it.
He had another funny one too to get over social anxiety, which was to go on the subway and announce every stop.
You know what I mean?
Because it just put himself in awkward situations just to teach himself that indeed he could handle it.
I would join you in encouraging anyone listening that feels like they just freeze around women that, you know, Scot, you're offering to just spend a few days and move them through
it.
I mean, what would a guy have to lose, right?
And as you said, it can be life-changing.
I think men and women are meant to be together.
And so if somebody feels like they just have a block, I would encourage them, you know, to allow themselves to get past it.
And I'm glad to hear what you're saying that, you know, women everywhere are not shut down and nasty, because I do admit I've seen a lot of it, but it's also, yeah, but I've seen a
lot of women too that are truly just craving a guy.
And I'm happily married myself, by the way, I just wanna say I've been happily married, you know, for 12 years.
So.
But I did write a book about dating as well, actually.
It's called Dr.
Chloe's 10 Commandments of Dating.
Yeah, yeah, it actually is.
It's on Amazon.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, so and I have one more book too, which is called Nervous Energy Harness the Power of Your Anxiety.
And it kind of fits with what you're doing.
because the premise of that book is that the healthy function of anxiety is to stimulate preparation behaviors and it unpacks ways to do that.
But so if somebody were anxious about meeting and talking to women, the preparation behavior is to go get some guidance, get some coaching and do something about it.
So I love what you're doing.
Well, I mean, I already know I want to have you back on the show to discuss that book, because that's a fantastic topic.
And we're always looking for unique ones around here.
So what would you tell guys if they're struggling right now with even interacting with women because this paralyzing fear that something's going to...
that something bad is going to happen as a result?
What are the first action steps, practically speaking, for those guys?
I think it's a really important rubric to look at there.
So to first of all, ask yourself, do I have this fear because of a genuine actual pattern of experiences?
And if you do make a list of what those experiences are
so that you can look at them and understand what went wrong there.
Were you barking up the wrong tree repeatedly and not seeing the signals?
Were you going about things in a way that didn't make sense?
Understand what happened.
Or do you actually have no history of this, but it's just, it's kind of an irrational fear.
Because the way that you respond to that scenario that you described, Scot, is going to vary depending on the context around it.
The first thing we want to do is appraise the actual situation and then, you know, that will shape the best way to move forward.
I think that is fantastic and dead accurate insight.
Cause I'll have guys who come to me and go, I can't get any women to go out with me.
Well, how many women have you asked out?
None.
So there's no practical basis for their fear and loathing.
They just have made this assumption.
Women don't want to talk to them that I'll get rejected or that I'm bothering women.
It used to be men were afraid of rejection.
Nowadays that's morphed into I'm afraid I'm bothering women with my presence.
And yet they haven't even put it to the test.
And I always tell guys, you know, if you talk to five or 10 women and they're attractive to you, and they're the kind of women you would like to go out with theoretically, and you
have a good experience with that, you may be cured forever simply because you finally went out and, you know, jumped in, jumped into the pool.
And yet I do have guys who come to me and go, I can't even get within 10 feet of any woman with her angrily waving me off and saying, get out of here.
Well, then we have a creepiness problem.
Then there's some self-work that we indeed need to do.
But it's good to be able to accurately get a handle on what's going on there before we go around prescribing what the solution is going to be.
So I really appreciate that.
Fantastic.
Well, I'm glad you're out there for guys, Scot.
You know, I can tell you obviously are going about that in a thoughtful way.
So yeah, I'd love to come and chat again sometime.
Yeah, and this has been a wonderful conversation.
I feel like we could have talked about this subject for hours, but that'll just make guys want to dive into your book a little bit more, which is again called Can I Say That?
Why Free Speech Matters and How to Use It Fearlessly?
And we'll put it up there with your other two books um at mountaintoppodcast.com/amazon.
And if you guys are listening to this show within a few days of its release, certainly within the first week of its release, that'll be right there at the top of my Amazon
queue.
Well,
Dr.
Chloe Carmichael, uh what a revelation and a joy to meet you.
You're very charming and I think you're right on uh target with all of this stuff.
And it's just been a fantastic show that went in a few ways, especially with marianismo that uh I think are very good insights and bring a lot of value.
Thank you.
Thank you, Scot.
It was a real pleasure and I look forward to the next time.
Yeah, absolutely.
Guys, listen, if you want to go out in-field with me and talk to women, you want to do that?
Talk to me.
scot@mountaintoppodcast.com And, uh, I do about seven or eight of them a year, cause they are exhausting, but you might be one of those guys.
And if you're already thinking you are, and you're a man of means somewhat, so that you can take me off the grid for four days, call me, call me or email me and let's talk about
it.
I would love to hear from you.
And also, you know, guys, there are lots of other resources there for you.
If you have this issue, The Man's Approach is a great program.
have a little audio called "Yes, And..." which you can get right off the mountaintoppodcast.com site that teaches you how to use uh the, first rule of improv to
really make wonderful conversations with women and most anybody really.
And that's available for you at mountaintoppodcast.com.
While you're there, visit Jocko Willink's company
Origin in Maine.
Guys, they have a whole new line of, of fall wear, winter wear.
And, um, what I love about Jocko's jeans is you may never get into a bar fight or a tussle or do these machismo things that we've been railing about all the time on this show today.
But boy, you feel like you could, while you're in your jeans.
You feel like, you know, you could stretch and do athletic things in these jeans.
got, I got Jocko Willink's
Bison Boots, bison leather boots and they're just fantastic and I wear them every chance I can and they're just masculine and uh they're certainly not marianismo, and you could wear
them anywhere...
I guess I wouldn't wear them to play pickleball But you know when you're out about they're a very masculine look You can get 10 % off anything you get from Origin in Maine by using
the coupon code "mountain10" as you can when you go to my friends at herosoap.com
or thekeyport.com.
Use the coupon code "mountain10" with them as well.
And until I talk to you again real soon, this is Scot McKay from X & Y Communications in San Antonio, Texas.
Be good out there.