Welcome to the Elevate Construction Podcast where we help you bring everything into the realm of possible. My name is Jason Schroeder and today's podcast is about building information modeling and some questions that we were asked recently from one of our listeners. So we got some good questions and we're going to answer those today.

And my guest is Greg Lowe and he is a director of integrated construction technologies or director of VDC or BIM at Oakland Construction. And Greg is just absolutely amazing, probably not that good at taking compliments, but absolutely fantastic. And not only is he a good friend and leader, he can make these applications, these softwares really dance and produce remarkable deliverables.

So Greg, say hi. Anything you want to do? Opening here with our audience. You are so kind.

No, I'm just really, really excited to be here and I love working with you and looking forward to this. Fantastic. Well, so I'm going to ask you a few questions to get the audience warmed up to you. 

So first, how did you get started? Tell us a little bit about your personal life and your role and then let's jump right into how did you get started. OK, sounds great. So a little bit about me, you know, I'm married.

I've got five kids, stay very busy with them. But I got started in construction when I was 18 years old doing wood framing. I got into that.

I loved it. I love, love the hands on side and really enjoyed the framing part of it. Actually did framing all through college, graduated in construction management and actually was working with the framing company for a couple of years.

At that point, I got a call from a good friend at Oakland and said, hey, we're looking for some people. Why don't you come talk with us? And I did. And I started at Oakland as a project engineer on a 33 story high rise in Salt Lake City. 

During that time, I was doing a lot of AutoCAD work for our project. And after that first project, the three years of being a project engineer there, I went to our Adobe project or one of our our leaders asked if I'd be willing to jump into BIM. And at the time, I didn't know a lot about BIM.

Everything I was doing was in 2D. And I had a friend come down from our main office, sit down with me. We went through Navisworks and Revit and I jumped in and started doing 3D coordination. 

And that's where I got my start. And that was 10 years ago and been doing BIM and VDC ever since. So I appreciate your background.

It's funny how I started using AutoCAD as well. And when I remember when Revit first came out, they were like, this is the next thing. This is the next big thing.

And I don't know if you were too, but I was super skeptical. And the person that reached out to me, I didn't try it right away. And that's when they really switched their interface to have the ribbons.

They switched from the old interface to the new ones. And then I had to I took these CADsoft trainings, these online trainings and had to get certified in it. And I'm like, well, I guess this is here to stay.

But the one thing I would say, AutoCAD is here to stay too. And I love that, too. Yeah, yeah, AutoCAD is not going anywhere.

I agree. So second question. What are some of your favorite aspects of working in your niche in BIM? So I love helping people.

And I found that through BIM, it's such a fun way to get into a project, get into the details. And as you just go through the BIM process, you're finding issues up front and it makes such a difference for the project and the teams you work with. And it really gives you a great chance to collaborate with some great people on the design side and with the trades.

And and so I love that part of it. I love seeing technology help people. And for it seems to be a little bit better for them.

So that answer, thank you for that. That answer might tie into my next question a little bit. So I'm going to ask you what accomplishment are you most proud of? It doesn't have to be with people, but it might tie in.

So so what are you most proud of? You know, I it definitely ties into people. And maybe this will be a theme of a lot of the things I say. But I think everything ties back to people.

But I would say my most of my accomplishments that I'm most proud of would be at Oakland. When I first got into BIM, there were three of us and didn't have a lot of traction, had a long way to go. And over the years, we built a team of of 20 or so and we fluctuate up and down a little bit from there, depending on where we're at.

But it's watching the people come in, learn how to use the software, learn the skills and see the people grow. I think that's my favorite part. And my what I would say would be my greatest accomplishment would be to see these guys come in and and take over and start running with them and make it possible.

I love the quick shout out there for building the team first. You know, that's a big theme for for me. And I know it is for you. 

So I love that. Yeah. So you've been really successful.

You said 10 years ago, that's pretty amazing. You've you're a director. You've been and I know you probably weren't going to mention that yourself because you're a humble guy, but you're very successful.

What do people need to know to be successful with BIM? And that could either be in a career that's specifically in this field or tailored to some of the questions that we got from one of our listeners for a project manager, superintendent or somebody on their project side. What are what what would be your advice for how to be successful with this? I would say it's a it's a three legged stool. You've got technology, construction, knowledge and people.

And in BIM, I think one thing that can be a detriment to some guys is they they love the technology side so much and they don't have enough of the construction background or they've spent so much time in the technology that they haven't put the time in to build relationships with people and know how to work with people. But I think you've got to have those three legs as strong as you can get them with some construction experience. Know how to build things, know how to use the technology.

But you've got to be able to work with people. You're going to you're going to run into people from all walks of life in BIM, from the trades to design teams to owners. And you've got to be able to work with all the different personalities, all the different cultures.

And I think if you if you can nail those three things and get and you don't have to be perfect in them by any means, but put your time in to learn the construction side, learn how to work with people and learn the technology. I think if you can do those three things with the emphasis being on people, that's the key. But if you do that, I think you can be really successful in BIM and all that we do on that side.

Thank you for that answer. Two more, two more questions. Where do you see yourself in five years time? Now, I'm not talking about company.

I'm not talking about role. I'm talking about fun stuff, dreams. What do you feel like you'll be creating by way of people, culture, process, technology, whatever? Where do you see yourself in five years time? So in five years time, that's such a great question, because I've always I've always had such a hard time looking out that far and envisioning where I want to be.

But, you know, it's really important to have that type of vision. And for me, in five years, I think it looks like we're right now, I feel and this is all career wise, I feel BIM is in a pot and then you've got estimating and then you've got business development and marketing. And I think and even on the design side, you get this, these silos.

And I my hope is that in the next five years, where I want to be is that we've taken our company and we've merged to those different pots where an estimator can do anything that needs to happen on the BIM side or a BIM guy can do whatever is needed on the estimating side. And they they're under the same umbrella, they're the same team, same with business development, any content that's needed for marketing. I really think we're going to start to see these merge more than they are right now.

And I think, especially on the general contracting side, in five years, we're going to see design coming more from GCs and I want to be a part of that. I want to see I want to see that happen. I think that's the leanest way to get from conceptual design all the way through construction is to get everybody under the same umbrella and get everybody on the same page.

So in five years, I want to be a part of that. I want to make that happen. I want to be a part of it, too.

I think about four years ago, all of the applications started to talk well enough with each other to where it wasn't a nightmare. And so I was really proud that we got there. I mean, you remember where different file types didn't work.

And the big thing with Navisworks was just just collaborating with different file types. Now, pretty much all of the applications talk to each other. They actually work. 

Bluebeam works. You know what I mean? These things are fantastic. So, yeah, that day's coming, right? And, you know, I bet a lot of us who are well, maybe I hope maybe there's not a lot of skepticism with us, but, you know, using a model from design all the way through and having that be a central focus for information and truly getting to the information portion of the building information.

Well, I think that's a little bit of what you're talking about. That would be a yes, exactly. That'd be a cool thing to see, wouldn't it? So fantastic.

And let me ask you a question. What is coming up next for you in BIM that you're excited about that will lead into this vision that you have for the next five years? You know, for me, personally, I'm I'm just embarking and jumping into the estimating side. You know, we've always the last five, seven years or so.

We've been pulling quantities from the model. We've been doing all those things. But I think it can be better.

And I've just completed some goal, other goals that I had. And the next thing I'm jumping into is is that estimating side, figuring out how to make that more seamless from the design side coming into estimating and being able to turn those numbers around quickly that when they change something, we can tell them, tell the owner and the design team, hey, this is what the cost is going to be. And I really want to see that happen.

I want to see that really work well. And that's where I'm going to be putting a lot of my effort and focus over the next while to see that happen. And if we get by in there, because money is so important to people in companies, I think that we'll get traction everywhere else, right? I mean, sometimes, yeah, sometimes in our industry, BIM is just this thing I got to pay for, right? And the people that pay for it don't see the direct value because they're not the ones on the job sites like you and I are seeing.

Oh, my gosh, you know, thank goodness this was done. Yeah. And so once we start to add value with the estimating, you know, the whole industry is what I'm talking about, estimating and procurement and just selling projects and having that be an integral part.

Hopefully we continue the traction that we're on because for construction, I don't even remember what it was like to do it without BIM, quite frankly. So we just got to keep going. Any other thoughts there? Yep. 

Yeah, no, it's just keep the momentum moving. And I think people are getting on board. I think they are seeing the vision of it.

And I think having that model used in the pre-planning is key and getting everyone to really plan and use that as a tool. I'm excited to see things move forward. OK, well, we have four questions here that we need to answer.

And for anybody listening, I do want to say that if you have more questions, Greg and I would love to answer these in future podcasts and, you know, whether they deal with IPD, design, build, pre-construction, 4D, 5D, whatever. I mean, we love all of it. But what we need to do is not go so high or low or side level here that we don't answer these four questions for listeners.

One of our promises is that we answer these. So we're going to stick with these four today. If you want to ever have further clarification, please reach out.

So question number one, Greg, how do we get buy in from the trade partners right away? And then this was a little bit of the context that it was provided. When bidding, I see a $20,000 price tag at alternate. And that's frustrating because it easily saves more than that on rework and stopping trades to coordinate in field.

How do I convince them to remove that? So how do we get that buy in from trade partners right away, Greg? Oh, that's such a good question. I remember when we first got going into BIM and how skeptical trades were on on what we were proposing to do. So for us and again, this is just totally my experience.

And what I've seen that works for us to get buy in from trades right away is a very having a very effective BIM execution plan, having something that they can go to and they it tells them exactly our process, everything that they can expect and just how we're going to do it. If we can go in there confident knowing that we're going to make this work, that they're going to see a benefit of doing this. It might not be at the very beginning of the job.

It might take them a while for them to buy into it halfway through the job or so, but eventually they do. And and I don't I don't think you have to do a lot with the trades to get them to buy in. As long as you're running your meetings effectively, working through the issues, they're going to start to see it on their own and realize the value of building information model brings to them.

I remember getting frustrated as well when I would see, all right, we're going to do BIM on a job and we'd get an added cost from the trades. And I used to think, well, they should charge less because ultimately this is going to cost less for them if they do this right. And initially, we had a hard time getting that number to go away.

And there's still jobs where where it's still a cost. It really is. There's there's more people.

There's more software. There's a lot that has to come in for them to work. But when you can get the trades to jump in and see the value, I think they get to that point where they start to say, all right, I am not doing another job without BIM and it saves me this much.

I'm I can now give this contractor a lower number because I know it's going to work versus another contractor that's not going to do BIM. And I really think that happens. I really think that for us, we've seen trades that didn't want to get on board and and doing it right.

They jump in, they see the value of it and and it works. I agree with that. And so it's a frank conversation, really, is what I'm hearing.

And I've experienced this as well. Hey, you know, we're trying to build a long term relationship with you. Let's go do this on this project and have it be a win.

And you'll see the value. But in order for us to do this properly, we can't, you know, kill it right away with a bunch of upfront costs. So let's let's partner on this, this run together.

These are the expectations. And then we want to prove to you its value and that we just want this to be a part of how we do business. And one other thought that I had, Greg, is there are projects where, you know, let's say it's a corn shell or it's a little two million dollar remodel in an office building and there's not a lot of overhead where we don't do building information modeling.

Right. But I personally wouldn't even consider doing it for like a brand new complex 20 million dollar laboratory or pharmacy or hospital. Like, it's just a given. 

We're going to do it. And if we have trades in different regions or smaller contractors, it's really about the pre construction effort to get them up and running and to take that journey with them and show them the value. Anything else you would add to that one? Yeah. 

And in some for some trades, we've had to start small and maybe that's looking at the level of development and how far we need to take that. Maybe it's a little bit of a lower LOD or or or we have to modify our execution plan in a small way, but doing whatever we can to help them take the bait, right? Like to see that this really is going to make a difference for them. And it's building that long term relationship to help them be successful.

And they got to get on board. We just got to help them get there. So let's let's talk about getting them on board and having them take the bait.

In my mind, for anybody listening and for the response to these questions, I would also say we as the GC need to have confidence, which means back to your execution plan. This is how we're going to do a boom, boom, boom co-location. This is how we're going to resolve issues.

This is our meeting cycle. This is everything right. And if you have that information, that research, then we can have confidence and then you can be confident in that meeting and those negotiations one on one.

It really win the day. So that would be one thing. Yeah. 

And then you and I have talked about this also, Greg, is that if we're doing design twice, coordination twice, then it might not be financially feasible. And so we have to really be careful about the the phased packaging, corn shell, then TI. We might be doing the entire coordination over again and blowing the budget.

So we really need to be strategic with that. You really do. You've really got to say, hey, look, design's either not developed enough.

We're going to hold off until we really get there. And nothing worse than than doing it twice. And I'll tell you that the second thing that's even worse than doing it twice is is doing it after the fact that construction has already been done.

Yeah. And right. Timing is really critical with with this process.

And you've really got to be watching it and know when to when to pull the trigger and when to save. We're done. And I'll go into maybe the more superintendent kind of gruff side of things.

When I've been in these these conversations before, I've put them on death ground, back them up against the wall and said, OK, our schedule presumes full prefabrication spooled out by room or by area. And our schedule depends on this being prefabricated. And, you know, if not, then we need to talk about time extensions and that's going to cost you more.

That's more GCs, that's more people, that's more waste. So if you don't think this is a value add, let's just pencil it out. Let's show the numbers.

You know, I'm not going to get lost in a verbal conversation. I'm going to say, hey, that's interesting. Let's look at the data.

And on the left or right. OK, prefabrication. This is what it affects.

Not doing it. I want I want you to estimate properly the waste in and out, the cutting, the added manpower, the additional time, the GCs, everything. And usually, I mean, that's a little bit more negotiating strategy, but put them on death ground.

Make it to where, no, this is what we're doing, team. We are doing better. We're doing prefabrication.

We're spooling these things out. This is just what we're doing. Let's find a way to get there.

Yeah. Yeah. And an interesting thing that I just a while ago talking to one of our trades, they now no longer allow conduit vendors on their project.

I mean, it comes right out of the BIM model and right into prefab. They send it out and it gets put in. And then you almost have to do that and take that kind of step to to get everyone on board.

But it works. I agree. One quick last story on that one.

We had a schedule constraint on the research lab. But I said this and there's a lean video for it, too. We had to have it done in a week.

That was the only way the schedule is going to work. I mean, everything was waiting for it. I mean, the entire project.

So we told them that, you know, like this is a six week job. Hey, guys, I love you. I don't care. 

Find a way to get it done. We'll work with you. So they they they bimmed it out and they pieced everything together and color coded it all in the office.

And they brought out prefabricated underground racks, pieced it together in five days. And then I got the honor of slurring it together with 80 yards of slurring when there's a necessity. You know, necessity is the mother of invention.

I think that's what you're talking about. So let me get into question number two. When do you start meetings for building information modeling for hardbid jobs? Can you start before and how do you put them together on design bid build jobs where the plans are complete? So there's really two questions here, probably.

When do you start for hardbid design bid build jobs? And when do you start with design build projects? Hardbid stuff because you really can't do anything until you really have that green light to move forward. For us, when we've had a hardbid job, hardbid job and we've gone through and we know we're doing them. It's the second we get notified and the trades are notified that very day, we're doing a kickoff meeting and getting started.

The tough part with hardbid jobs is you are already late. With coordination by the time it's started. So you've got to jump in hot and heavy.

You've got to get the trades moving. Ideally, you're able to get in with the design team and start coordinating with them and work through major issues up front before things get out on the street. It almost it almost it almost sounds like sorry to interrupt.

And you know those you're good. Those contests where they give a couple of people an empty shopping cart and they're like, you've got five minutes and you can just go grab as much as you can, right? So yeah, it's almost like you take your BIM team, your ICT team. You're like, here's an empty shopping cart.

You've got five minutes. Grab as much coordination for this project as you can before you build the darn thing. Right, right.

Yeah, that's really true. And you really have to be judicious of what you do tackle and what you can't tackle. OK, let's go on to the second part.

So does design build thoughts on the design build side? This is where relationship with people is so critical. You've got to be able to get it on that design side and start and start doing coordination with the design team. The biggest bang for your buck with BIM is in design.

As soon as you get past construction documents, costs start going up, schedule starts being impacted. And it's just critical that you get in as soon as possible and get things moving on the design build side. It's either if you've got trades that you know you're going to be working with, if you can get them involved with it, it's just critical you get going as soon as you have a green light.

And for us, usually that's in the DD phase that you can really start making ways and get things coordinated. And I've seen. Thank you for your answer.

I've seen that same thing. And depending on the situation, so like, let's take one situation where the designers are totally open to even having some of our modelers work in house with them, seeing that getting started early, getting them I think back to your point about level of development is critical. Right. 

We're coordinating major items. We're coordinating storm drains going down the building. We're coordinating shaft recording, coordinating major duck lines.

We're not getting down to that level of detail at that time. Right. We're making sure we're building it.

Then I remember at the pharmacy job one time, the designers didn't want us involved. And this was a different company a long, long time ago, but they had agreed and the owner forced them to have a model that we could use. It was reliable.

And so we were doing model checks. We were using celebrity. We were using, you know, Navisworks to go around and look for major conflicts.

And we would give them a bi-monthly report of what they needed to fix. And they actually fixed it. So by the time it was the only job my entire career where we got a set of plans and a model, it was accurate.

And so unbelievable. And to do that, you've got to have a discerning and knowledgeable owner. Kudos to them.

So those are the two there. And then I want to give you a plug and then want to want you to finish up this question, Greg. So if we get in on the early stages, whether it's the designers or us or the trade partners, you know, early on in that integrated process, I think the finishing of the coordination.

Down to the the farthest level of development, level of detail needs to be aligned with our rhythm, our tact plan. And so this is a little shout out with tact plans. I always tell designers in interviews, and this is true.

It's not, you know, B.S. CPM and P6 will just shove everything to the left, right? But if we're using tact plans, it tells us, OK, this is the rhythm with which I need to build this. We can then align building information modeling and those last levels of coordination to happen at just the right time, which gives designers and contractors are going to shoot both of us. We can't walk out our front doors, but that gives designers as much time as possible to finish their iterative cycle for those areas before we have to fine tune details.

Is there anything else you would add to that? I love the thought of rhythm and keeping things in sync, and especially on those tact schedules. When you when you put them in there and show when you've got to start and how it relates to all the other areas and what it needs to look like, I think you catch a bigger vision. And I think it's motivating for guys to jump in and say, all right, we we're going to get this done within the next couple of days.

We see what's coming. We know what we got to do, and now is the time that we need to do it. And sometimes that's on the design side and letting them know, look, when we get three months down the road, we need to be right here.

We're going to we're going to get this resolved now and work through this together. So from a practical standpoint for the design builders out there, or if you're in an IPD, IPD light environment, let's get that BIM execution plan as early as possible. Well, I'd I'd say probably same time we're doing the early tact plans in schematic design, right? Yeah.

So that is definitely sorry. So then in design development, we're executing the design phase of the execution plan and fully preparing for construction, whether we're in a cluster or not. Right.

So that was great, great advice, Greg. I appreciate your summary. So question number three, what's your meeting agenda at high level for the first meeting? And how often do you conduct them after that? So we'll use let's just use as a point of reference.

Let's just say it's a thirty five million dollar job. Let's say it's fairly complex, Greg. Let's just use design build probably for this reference.

And then so kind of what do you talk about the first meeting? How often do you meet after that? And then what are the common problems and solutions that you tackle right away with your trade partners? So for us, that very first meeting, our kickoff meeting, our agenda literally is our BIM execution plan. We don't read it word for word, but we go through all of it. I can't reinforce how critical that execution plan is and that it be rock solid.

Everyone's got a way into it. We go into it with a word document and we say, right. We are now a coordination team.

We are going to be doing this work and we're going to make sure this execution plan is specific to each and every one of us and our needs. And we go through it and we make updates. We adjust. 

We take things out. We put in. But we make sure that that execution plan is is owned and bought off by everybody.

And that's looking at roles and responsibilities and the LOD matrix, naming conventions, what programs you're going to use, what year of those programs, the clashing and reporting and what that looks like. All of it from from now, your origin points in the model to how you're going to break it up, how you're going to name viewpoints. It gets very specific and you've got to be able to go through that and make sure everyone is on the same page.

And that goes along with the second part of this question. Common problems. One of the most common problems is people not communicating like they need to and as in an urgent manner.

Early on, as I started in BIM, I noticed that we would do a kickoff meeting and then everybody would wait until the next coordination meeting to talk to each other again. And coordination for what we do that just doesn't work that way. You've got to be talking to each other day in and day out, working through the issues.

And I think a really important piece for that to work is right off the get go, do a meeting in person if you can. Now, I know in today's world with technology, it's really easy to do the Zoom meetings, but there's just something about getting everybody in a room as people and getting to build that relationship, knowing about them and their family. I really believe the team treats each other differently and works better together when they've had time to build that relationship and know that they're just not talking to a voice or a talking head on a screen.

They're talking to a person that's got a family or that's, you know, got a life and and you got to work together. And so we go through the execution plan. We make sure we build some trust, get everybody on the same page.

And then it depends on the project we were meeting as often as we need. Some projects, it's daily. Some projects, it's every other day.

Some projects, it's once a month. It really just depends on what needs to happen for that specific project. I really like a daily meeting. 

That's my preference. But I've got guys on my team here at Oakland that they prefer every other weekly. And it just depends on the project and that coordination team on how often you should be meeting.

And I I'm taking what you're saying and trying in my mind because I have the option to listen to you and think you're a little bit in my mind, it comes down to get build the team, get communicating. And if we're aligned with the conditions of satisfaction, whether it's for the entire pre-construction effort or for a specific cluster or for a phase in a project, right? If we know where the design team is heading, where the entire project team is heading, what they want to do, then we can ask ourselves is the information that we're coordinating answering the questions and supporting that effort and taking care of those conditions of satisfaction. And if not, let's work as a team to return to green. 

Right. So what is our goal? Yeah. Yeah.

What is our goal? Is our model supporting that? What are our problems? Let's bring all those to the surface and daily and weekly work together as a team to remove that so that BIM is a useful tool, a useful system, a useful model for this effort. Did you do that there? Yeah. Yeah, that's perfect. 

Very well said. Loved it. So to summarize question number three, get your team, use the project execution plan, the BIM execution plan, know what the goal is and immediately start teaching your team to notice deviations and bring problems to the surface and start working daily to remove those roadblocks, those problems.

The question number four, all of us have had to deal with this. How do we deal with a mechanical engineer that doesn't address constructability issues and says they'll figure out all of these issues in the field? They won't use 3D and they say the project was done in AutoCAD. And then we have to go ahead and import it manually.

How can we get everybody into, you know, the current techniques into 3D, whether it's an engineer or a contractor? What would you do, Greg? What would be your strategy if everyone else is playing in the sandbox but you had one person, the mechanical contractor engineer in this case that wasn't playing in the sandbox? What would you do? Now, this one's interesting because I've really had experienced this so many times on projects. I think my favorite example of this is talking to the mechanical engineer about sloped pipe and that on paper, it's going to fit. And once you start sloping the pipe, there's just no way that it works and it becomes a big design change.

But, yeah, it can be so frustrating. I think on this one, a couple of things that I've learned is first, educate the owner of the project. When an owner understands BIM and the value it can bring, it's so much easier to get a design team to get on board.

It's so much easier to get the trades on board. You get the right requirements in the specs. And it can really turn things around.

But I'm guessing in this scenario and this question, the owner is not on board with BIM, they're not pushing it. And you've got an engineer that's not on board with it either. So what do you do? I think whoever is asking the question where they're importing it into Revit, they're manually drawing it, they're getting it all in there.

I think sometimes you have to take those steps to show them the value that it brings. I know on some of our projects where we've had design teams that would not get up to speed with it, once we started doing it, we modeled all of the structure ourselves, we modeled all of the systems, everything. And once the owner and the design team saw what that did, they've now since everything's gone to 3D and they've never looked back.

And so I think it's a trust thing. I think you've got to get them to trust the process and know how it's going to work. Some guys just aren't going to get there.

No matter what we do, we could take them to the well, but they're just not going to drink. But I really believe if we can build the trust with the owner and those teams, eventually we're going to get there. But it's going to take time.

It will take time. I like that. So I think, you know, in summary, talk to the owner, do everything you can, get everyone working together.

You know, one definition, when we talk about the five big ideas of IPD, or if we talk about the definition of integrated project delivery, it's about integrated systems, integrated technology, integrated information, integrated teams, integrated everything, right? And having people using different methods for design and coordination isn't integrated. Right? It's ineffective. So in that example, from what I'm hearing you say is we can either do it ourselves, we can help them with it.

We can, God forbid, get a third party to help us. That rarely works. But it works better than if you have different designers using different systems that aren't integrated that can, by virtue of not being able to answer the questions or be aligned or have their coordination done, really derail the project in major ways.

And in our industry, lots of crash landings and negative fee positions happen because of that. So I would say just letting it be, that's probably, I would personally would caution people against that. I'd say find some solution.

Is there anything you would add to that? Yeah, you know, I totally agree with as fast as construction has got to go now, as short of a timeframe that the design team has to put the design together, you've really got to use all of your resources and technology is the key there. You've got to be able to use that to help get through it and let everybody win. So I hope that answers the question and bringing everybody into this century.

It's going to, I like that question that they left us. It's difficult, but it's really like you said about showing them the value, partnering with them and building trust. And so we do that with consistency and with having a plan ahead of time, having some confidence.

You know, I do like that. If we have a plan and we're negotiating, we can be confident enough to steer everyone in the right direction, you know, and there's one other thing that I always say, I don't want anybody to take this wrong, but at the end of the day, if we're on the GC team, we're the God of that world with a lower case G. Every dial is within our control. And so I get super annoyed with myself or people that I'm working with.

Or when I hear people say, well, this and that, I'm like, wait, hold on a minute. Like we are the voice from the heavens on this project. We control everything.

We turn all the dials and yet we act like we're victims of circumstance. The answer is no, like for me, and let me get a little passion here. Let's not hire those contractors in the first place.

If they're not on board, let's really find a way to, to, if it's the engineers on the design side, to get them brought up to speed and to do the work for them and get paid for it if we can, but the answer is this is what we're doing, ladies and gentlemen. Like this project we're using BIM on we go. You either get on the bus or you get off and you know, I love you and we're going to help you and we're going to nurture you.

Here's a little hand, heart symbol for you to buy a video, you know, but this is what we're doing. And I think, I think general contractors need to know that they're in that position with a lowercase G and I think they need to have their confidence to go do the right thing. Because at the end of the day, this last thing I'll say at the end of the day, no owner wants us to fail.

No, no designer wants us to fail. We always say, Oh, well they told us to do this way. Well, hold on.

They might be thinking they're telling you to do this way, but at the end of the day, they're going to want you to come under, under budget, uh, on time with a good quality product. And if it's on you, then it's up to you. Meaning you make that call.

And, uh, and so Greg, I'd like to know if there's, uh, so let me do this, Greg, what closing comments would you have for the audience? And I'd like you to give one or two challenges as we close this out. Um, you know, I think, I think, I think we've made a lot of progress, uh, in the world of BIM. I think we still have a ways to go.

I, I'm, I'm excited to see, uh, these questions because this, this makes me say, Hey, look, we, we're, we're getting there. If people are just asking these questions, then, then they're trying to make it work, they're pushing it and, uh, it's a team effort. It's going to take all of us to get everybody moving in the right direction.

And so I, I really, I like where it's going. Uh, as far as the challenge goes, I think whether it's BIM or it's scheduling or it's operations, whatever it is, I, I, I would just challenge your listeners, Jason, to, to get into books. But I just think I, one of my, my favorite guys to listen to is Dave Ramsey, and he always says you'll be as good as the people you meet and the books you read, and I think getting in and learning and developing yourself is, is really the key to everything we do.

And especially in this industry to keep learning and growing and that you detect sides always changing. It's always moving. You've got to keep a pulse on it.

You've got to watch where things go. And so you just, you gotta, you gotta put yourself out there and, and keep learning and growing. You've got to.

I love that. And if I can be presumptuous enough to leave a challenge, I'd leave this challenge for owners, owners of businesses, directors, executives, superintendents. And I can say this because, and I've said this before in previous podcasts, I, you know, I, I know how to use Revit.

I know how to use AutoCAD, Navisworks Manage. I've built 4D schedules and what Greg and his team and people like that in our industry do is so difficult. I remember being asked by a general superintendent once when I was overseeing building information modeling for a short stand for about a year.

And he was like, go take this 2D set of drawings that was, you know, and the design was an AutoCAD and it was $150 million project. And he said, we're going to do a proposal and I need this entire building modeled and I need it sequenced in a 4D schedule and our deadline is next Thursday. So I hired somebody in Europe that did it in Vico and, and did all of the model geometry and made it look really snazzy in a couple of days.

I was super impressed. We were able to get it done in four days. And then I tied everything together in Synchro.

We made a tricked out little video and it really did well. And at the end of this, there was like a $4,500 tab. You know, like we, we paid this guy in a couple of thousand dollars and it's, the GS was so mad at me.

He's like, well, if we can't, you can't do this in house in six days and I'll have to rethink, you know, whether or not we use BIM. I was like, are you kidding me? Do you know how complex this is? You know, especially under certain circumstances. And I just see in our entire industry, BIM professionals, coordinators, people just getting beat over the head by unknowing directors and executives and owners that just continually say, Oh yeah, whip that up in two minutes.

It should be easy. Well, it's not easy. And my challenge is to see how not easy it is and that we're pioneers.

And this is going to take some time and that's not an excuse. And that's not victim mode, but the best thing to do with professionals like yourself in my mind is to say, to do this, ask the question, what do you need? What will it take? And if the number there is too big, then ask, what's the next best thing? And I think so many people, so many PMs, so many directors will start dictating. And I'll say this once, I can't remember, I can't believe I've never said this before in a podcast, but the number one question a PM should learn is what do you need? I don't, don't say anything else until you ask that question.

Don't say anything else. You're not allowed to talk, don't, don't talk. What do you need? And once that question is answered, then we can go from there.

I think that would be my closing advice. So anything else, Craig? No, I love it. I love it.

I totally agree with that. That's, that's fantastic. It does.

It takes a lot of time and a lot of effort to be able to do what them folks do. And getting everyone on the right page is critical. Well, Greg, I really appreciate it.

I think we've left our listeners with some valuable content. I will direct message back on LinkedIn to see if these questions were properly answered and if not, we'll work on it. Uh, but the vision, yeah, I love it.

But the vision for this, uh, for, for us in the industry, why does this matter? I can say for me personally on the cancer center, I was, I oversaw it and I was also a superintendent, but I oversaw the, the modeling efforts and we did co-location and we were on schedule and, uh, you know, we use pretty cool technologies and we prefabricated everything and then we prefabricated the walls and we coordinated it and it worked. It was the first time in my life that been worked and when it works, it's magic and it makes such a big difference. And my message is that it does work and when it works, we can bring more remarkable experiences for our owners, for our customers, for the workers in the field and put them in safer environments, quite frankly, where they prefab and stable environments in the shop and come out and assemble it in place. 

And I think that in part answers the question, how do we get a more trained nomadic workforce? Part of the answer is don't make them nomadic, get them in the shop in a consistent environment, trained, and we do that through BIM. And so that's my message. Anything else before I shout out the website? No, this has been fantastic.

Thank you very much for the opportunity. I love what you're doing. Keep it up.

Well, thank you. And so if you have any questions or comments or want to do a podcast interview, or if you want further clarification, reach out to me at jasons.elevateconstructionisd.com or on our website or on Facebook or LinkedIn. IST stands for insights, solutions and training.

Our vision is to change this industry from coast to coast for the better and to really double down, quadruple down, if that's even a word on training and bring all of us a more remarkable experience and to bring construction up to the level of respect that health care or the professions like the legal professions enjoy and make this industry what it really is, an amazing, wonderful environment where anybody should feel free to enter in if they have any interest. And so take this challenge. I hope these answers are helpful in answering the questions and helpful to you, and until we meet again, find somebody who knows building information modeling, find where it's being done well, get your plan together, get your confidence and just drive, implement and get it done.

On we go.