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Welcome to the show, Jay.

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What's up?

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What's up?

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Thank you so much for having me, man.

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Yeah, it's great to have you and
congratulations on releasing your first

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plugin, Sub Ninja.

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Yeah, thank you so much.

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It's been a wild ride.

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I have to imagine, yeah, cause you come
from like a musician producer background

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and I'm guessing that this device came out
of some sort of need for you.

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Like, where is this thing that I want?

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So I guess I have to build it.

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yeah, absolutely.

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Like funny enough, I had something like
that.

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that I've been using for years and years
already.

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Like I had it, I use Reaper, it's a fairly
unknown DAW, but it has like a lot of

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customizable options and including in that
is like a small scripting language that

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allows you to make kind of like plugins
that run in Reaper.

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So I hacked together like another scope
that was running in there.

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I put a filter in there and changed some
stuff around so that I had something like

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this.

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Yeah, and I literally always have it open
on every track on my master,

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eight years or something.

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So in that way, I was supremely convinced
that this is a useful tool because I

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literally do use it myself all the time.

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And then I really wanted to make it into a
plugin, you know, and I thought it was

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kind of simple to do and then to build it
out and like to test the waters a little

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bit on how plugin development would go.

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Turns out it is actually quite complex,
but that's just how these things go.

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But yeah, man, yeah, it's very cool to me
that it's now a real thing that everybody

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can use.

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Do you mind just describing it for anyone
that's not familiar with SubNinja?

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So it's basically a scope plugin.

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So like it's a plugin that shows you the
waveform of the audio that's going through

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it.

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And I recommend just putting it on your
master bus so you can see the waveform of

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your audio, you know, and like to total
beginners that maybe are not as deep into

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producing yet.

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It's kind of like when you have an audio
file and you just see the lines on your

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computer.

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And this will show you like for example, I
always have it set up for one bar It'll

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show you the waveform of one bar and then
the nice thing that sub ninja does it

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Allows you to only see the waveform for
the low frequency So there's a low pass

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filter in there so you can for example
only see the frequencies under 100 Hertz

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and it turns out that

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This is actually, in my opinion, but I've
now also gotten feedback from many, many

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people that use it, this is the best way
to be looking at your bass information.

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Because I know many people are used to,
for example, maybe looking on a spectrum

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analyzer, like the thing you'll have in
your EQ.

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And that will bounce up and down a little
bit, and it'll give you a little bit of

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brief snapshots after each other of what
your...

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what your spectrum, your whole spectrum is
looking like, but that's not enough detail

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to look at the bass at all.

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And on top of that, like...

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The scope, the waveform will actually show
you that information over time.

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So it will show you everything that's
happening over time.

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It will show you how low the wave is going
because you can see how far the waves are

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apart.

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And it will show you how loud the wave is
in that particular time because it will be

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higher or lower.

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So you can see your kick drums, you can
see your bass, you can see how your

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sidechain is interacting.

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You can see if there's things overlapping,
if there's too much bass in something.

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Basically in one frame, in one full
picture, you can see right away what is

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going on in your bass.

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It's like kind of like poking your head
underwater, you know, and looking like

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what is going on.

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And these frequencies can just be really
hard to hear, like especially in small

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studios, not optimal acoustics, you know,
and even in a great studio and great

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acoustics, it can still be difficult to
get the bass right.

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And yeah, that's...

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It's not a, sorry, this is a long pitch,
but I'm, I'm yeah.

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Very for me, it's exceptionally useful in
showing you what is going on in your bass.

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Hmm.

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You know, for me, like as I've been
learning and throughout my life, like once

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I finally got a computer that showed me
the EQ spectrum and the frequencies, I was

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really fascinated by it to see like, oh,
this is what's happening.

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And then my initial thought would be like,
well, I guess I probably want them all

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even.

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I want them all to be like the same volume
that would sound balanced.

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You'd think that, but that doesn't really
sound good when you actually do it that

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way.

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So by like.

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Just watching songs that I like the mixes
of on the EQ spectrum just taught me so

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much.

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But you're right, you're only seeing
what's happening in the moment.

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It's just right now, right now this is
what's happening.

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But what is cool about Sub Ninja is that
it shows it scroll by and that you can

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actually see it but you can also just see
that bass stuff.

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That is one of the hardest things I find
to get right.

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Because

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It changes so much, especially I'm not in
the most professionally treated place

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right now.

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I think it sounds pretty good where I sit,
but if I move at all, everything changes,

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and especially in the bass.

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There's certain times I like to walk
around the room sometimes as I listen just

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to get a sense of how the sound changes in
the different spots.

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There are certain places I can stand where
there's either no bass or it's like

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thunder.

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Without something else to kind of give me
a little more information, it can be

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really tricky to know like, where do I
want this to work?

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Where do I want it to sound the best?

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Where do I want it to, you know, it's the
same thing.

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the great thing, Brian, is you're already
aware of this problem.

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So like the things you are explaining now
to me are already super advanced in terms

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of like, you are aware that actually the
bass that you're hearing in your room is

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not really equivalent to what is probably
present in your track, you know?

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Like you can notice that by walking
around, like that is great.

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But you know, like I think that already is
kind of a realization that took me a while

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to like figure out, hey man, like what I
hear might not actually be what is going

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on, you know?

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, well, that's the first thing I think
you learn when you make a mix and then you

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bring it into another system or your car,
you play it somewhere else and you're

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like, what, like, this isn't what I made.

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It's totally different.

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very familiar.

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So I think it's a funny thing you said
that you thought it'd be relatively simple

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to translate this.

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And turns out, of course, it's not, right?

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There's way more that goes into this
stuff.

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Do you think that was actually a benefit
for you?

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Like an advantage in that?

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Because if maybe if you would have
realized how hard it was, would you have

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still went ahead and done it?

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No, and the cool thing about this whole
process of diving into building my own

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plugins and doing all that work is that
it's like also got me thinking again about

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my music, you know, because I've been
producing for a while and you, this might

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be familiar to you as well, but you kind
of like lose those beginner's eyes, you

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know, like when I start on a project, I
kind of already know where it's going

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maybe.

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And I might be, you know, less optimistic
about it.

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beginner and you don't really know all the
ways you're gonna feel, you're just like,

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oh this is gonna be freaking great, you
know, I'm gonna do it and I'm just gonna

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go at it and do this and do that and then
yeah as you go along, you know, it turns

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out that everything takes like, well I
want to say like five times as much time

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as you think, like there's been many
things that I thought were gonna take like

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two days and took at least two weeks.

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Yeah.

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that's so true about so many things.

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Even if you're getting like work done on
part of your home or something, the

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estimate is always so optimistic.

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But it's so true about like creative
projects too, where you kind of think

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you're gonna be able to get through it
pretty quick.

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But yeah, when you're first starting out,
you don't know what you don't know.

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So you don't know that like, oh, I could
mess up the

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the bass frequencies in my mix or I might
like I might have phasing like you have to

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you have to make a lot of these mistakes
before you realize that they're mistakes

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you can even make

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Yeah.

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And it's interesting that the coin always
has two sides.

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Like on the one side that can cause you
some frustrations along the route, but it

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can also be that small thing that gives
you that little bit of craziness that you

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need to go through.

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Because at the end of the day, if you just
keep pushing through all those hurdles,

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then you're going to end up way further
than you ever thought you would.

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So that is really cool to see again in a
different field for myself.

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Right, yeah that's what I'm kind of
getting at.

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The fact that you didn't know how long and
winding the road was.

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You get on it like, okay, here we go.

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No big deal.

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I'm in the middle of one of those things
right now because...

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I've decided that I want to have an update
out for SubNinja very soon that is faster

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than the version one, that's much faster
in drawing because when I built the first

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version, I tested it a lot on my own
Macbook, which is fast, you know?

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And like, I never had any problems and now
I have like thousands and thousands of

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users and like there's people running it
on slower machines and they might want to

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run two at a time.

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I don't know why or four at a time, but
they might want to, you know?

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So now I'm all of a sudden like, oh man.

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I wish it was much faster.

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So like I already know that there's gonna
be like I'm working on a version that's

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much faster than V1 But dude, I thought
that was gonna be like one or two days and

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I'm like two weeks in and I'm like, oh my
god Where's the end of this, you know?

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Again, it's yeah, maybe you just need that
craziness to get there It's a gift and a

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curse

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Yeah.

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It's good sometimes what we don't know is
what saves us.

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A lot of things I think, I don't know if I
would have got involved, if I would have

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known how involved I needed to get.

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Exactly man, exactly.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So do you find yourself like buying old
computers now with like slower systems?

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I, yes, well not buying, but like I have a
habit of keeping my old laptops, my old

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production laptops and kind of leaving
them in the state that I had them.

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So like I literally am here looking at my
old Windows laptop.

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It's like Windows 10, I think on there.

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So I can do some tests on there to see
like, okay, what's going on.

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And then yeah, I might even try it on some
older machines.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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Yeah, well, I mean, I think in music too,
there's a lot of people that kind of stick

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to what works, right?

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Like, hey, my system's working, so I'm
going to stay on the old version of the

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software.

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I'm not going to update.

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I'm still on Mac, but I'm still not on the
latest version of the OS because I'm kind

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of like, I don't know, I got this...

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old interface that's working great and I
don't know what's going to happen on the

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next jump.

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So you sort of have to account for that.

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I know that pain very well.

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And especially I went from Windows to Mac
like a few years back and the whole M1

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question mark if all the plugins were
going to work.

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But I do think like at a certain point,
you know, I talked to a lot of DJ friends

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that have exactly the same problem.

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I had one.

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One friend of me, I sent him Sub Ninja and
I was like, oh, you got a chicken.

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I was like, so cool, I really want to try
this.

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And he's like texting me like, oh, it's
not working.

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I'm like, what the hell, you know, why is
it not working?

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Like my mind was really blown.

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And then I started asking him, what
version are you on?

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And he's like on a way old like version of
Mac OS that I don't support anymore.

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I don't fully know why I don't support it,
but I know like the framework I use has

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certain limitations.

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Still something on my to-do list to look
into, but I know this fear, but I do want

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to say like,

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getting free from that or at least a
little bit freer from that, especially in

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like a professional setting is nice and
important in my mind, because at the end

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of the day, you know, your computer might
crash and burn today and you might want to

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get back to work tomorrow.

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So, um, yeah, it, it is a bit of a balance
of, of doing that, but also a huge pain to

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00:12:44,777 --> 00:12:47,299
update everything and try to get it to
work.

225
00:12:48,330 --> 00:12:55,713
Yeah, and I guess too, you mentioned the
M1 thing, and there was Rosetta I was

226
00:12:55,713 --> 00:13:00,555
using for a while to kind of translate, I
guess, the old versions of the plugins and

227
00:13:00,555 --> 00:13:02,195
stuff into the new stuff.

228
00:13:02,295 --> 00:13:10,279
So there's probably a lot of people still
kind of sitting on that sort of edge of,

229
00:13:10,279 --> 00:13:14,180
I'm going into the new thing, but I'm
still kind of here in the old one.

230
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,661
And for you to come in at this point, is
it just...

231
00:13:17,750 --> 00:13:19,191
Let's stick with the new.

232
00:13:19,191 --> 00:13:23,396
Do you go back further to those older
pre-M1?

233
00:13:24,656 --> 00:13:30,541
Well, I suppose I support pre-M1 for sure
I support I think I want to say up to like

234
00:13:30,541 --> 00:13:33,122
11 or 10 or something macOS.

235
00:13:33,203 --> 00:13:39,408
So I'm definitely back a decent way When
slash if I have more time, I would

236
00:13:39,408 --> 00:13:43,751
definitely also consider looking into what
it would take to build it for those older

237
00:13:43,751 --> 00:13:49,055
systems because you know often with
software development like this is built by

238
00:13:49,244 --> 00:13:53,448
geeks like myself and like we want to make
sure everything works, you know, so a lot

239
00:13:53,448 --> 00:13:59,213
of the time it's Changing a few lines and
it should still be possible But yeah right

240
00:13:59,213 --> 00:14:03,357
now with the onslaught of the launch and
the updates I want to do I just didn't I

241
00:14:03,357 --> 00:14:09,583
got to focus on where like the most people
are gonna be served So like it's on my

242
00:14:09,583 --> 00:14:14,139
to-do list if I could I would Yeah

243
00:14:14,139 --> 00:14:16,520
I can relate to that on a much simpler
level.

244
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:23,463
Like I do a lot of instrument packs for
Ableton Live and there's like, well, what

245
00:14:23,463 --> 00:14:24,804
version should I make it in?

246
00:14:24,804 --> 00:14:28,405
Like they're about to release 12, Live 12.

247
00:14:28,545 --> 00:14:32,167
So do I make it in 10?

248
00:14:32,167 --> 00:14:33,808
Do I 11?

249
00:14:33,808 --> 00:14:37,369
Do I, you know, cause like once you pick
one, you can't go back.

250
00:14:37,709 --> 00:14:38,349
So.

251
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:39,403
Yeah, there you go.

252
00:14:39,403 --> 00:14:44,278
Well, and do you know where your customer
base is?

253
00:14:44,862 --> 00:14:49,043
Well, to some degree, but no, not
completely.

254
00:14:49,183 --> 00:14:52,145
And I know that there's a lot of people
that are still way back.

255
00:14:52,145 --> 00:14:55,746
I get an email every once in a while like,
will this work in eight or nine?

256
00:14:55,746 --> 00:14:58,027
Or I think recently even seven.

257
00:14:58,027 --> 00:15:02,969
I was like, no, like that's, I don't even,
I don't think I was making stuff when

258
00:15:02,969 --> 00:15:07,711
seven was out, but it was, it's always
kind of that question I have.

259
00:15:07,711 --> 00:15:11,133
Like, do I want to throw in these new
little bells and whistles?

260
00:15:11,133 --> 00:15:13,133
I can do with a newer version.

261
00:15:13,267 --> 00:15:13,458
Yeah.

262
00:15:13,458 --> 00:15:17,048
Or do I make it in the older versions so
that more people can use it?

263
00:15:17,190 --> 00:15:17,884
And you're like, hmm...

264
00:15:17,884 --> 00:15:19,415
so what's your answer?

265
00:15:20,394 --> 00:15:21,734
Well, if it's...

266
00:15:22,175 --> 00:15:24,096
I'll do kind of sometimes two things,
right?

267
00:15:24,096 --> 00:15:29,059
So if it's integral to the thing I'm
trying to build, then you have to use the

268
00:15:29,059 --> 00:15:30,139
newer version.

269
00:15:31,921 --> 00:15:38,145
If I can kind of do like half of it in
say, an older version, and kind of get

270
00:15:38,145 --> 00:15:44,148
something like that'll work, I'll do that
and then maybe I'll take it to the next

271
00:15:44,148 --> 00:15:46,097
level in another version of it.

272
00:15:46,097 --> 00:15:46,770
Yeah.

273
00:15:46,770 --> 00:15:50,911
So you can have the older version for,
say, Live 10.

274
00:15:51,171 --> 00:15:54,892
But if you want all the features, you'll
need 11.

275
00:15:54,892 --> 00:15:57,012
And you'll use this version instead.

276
00:15:58,153 --> 00:16:06,715
But beyond that, yeah, I'm not going
earlier than 10 anymore, just because

277
00:16:08,156 --> 00:16:13,577
there's only so much time in a day.

278
00:16:13,577 --> 00:16:14,297
Yes.

279
00:16:15,138 --> 00:16:15,699
What's your thoughts?

280
00:16:15,699 --> 00:16:16,622
Do you like it?

281
00:16:16,622 --> 00:16:19,003
I've had it for quite some time now.

282
00:16:19,624 --> 00:16:20,584
I really like it.

283
00:16:20,584 --> 00:16:22,465
I use it mostly.

284
00:16:23,226 --> 00:16:24,587
There's a lot of great new features.

285
00:16:24,587 --> 00:16:26,869
A lot of the MIDI editing is really nice.

286
00:16:26,869 --> 00:16:33,853
There's some cool new transformers and
generators that can just really get your

287
00:16:33,853 --> 00:16:34,534
ideas going.

288
00:16:34,534 --> 00:16:39,217
So it's great when you're kind of not sure
what to do and you just need a little

289
00:16:39,217 --> 00:16:41,378
nudge so you can play with that stuff.

290
00:16:42,519 --> 00:16:46,221
Some cool new devices, nice updates to the
look.

291
00:16:46,882 --> 00:16:50,984
I'm still getting used to the new browser
system.

292
00:16:51,605 --> 00:16:54,487
I've gotten so comfortable with the old
way, and they did make some pretty

293
00:16:54,487 --> 00:16:59,111
significant changes, so now it feels
unknown.

294
00:16:59,111 --> 00:17:05,796
And I haven't really dove completely into
some of the new features on it, just out

295
00:17:05,796 --> 00:17:11,080
of fear that if they change it, like
there's this new tagging thing they have,

296
00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:12,581
and filtering your tags and stuff.

297
00:17:12,581 --> 00:17:13,181
So...

298
00:17:13,670 --> 00:17:16,713
I didn't want to dive too far into that
because if they change it, I'll lose all

299
00:17:16,713 --> 00:17:19,735
my work of tagging everything.

300
00:17:20,496 --> 00:17:25,561
There's that thing too, if you're using a
beta, how much do you want to lean on it

301
00:17:25,561 --> 00:17:30,625
because things can change in the next
release and then you just kind of, uh-oh.

302
00:17:32,386 --> 00:17:36,949
but I'm excited for when it actually
releases so that I can just be all in.

303
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,781
Yeah, yeah, cool.

304
00:17:39,781 --> 00:17:46,185
I used to be a big Ableton user, and I
couldn't help myself but buy the 12

305
00:17:46,185 --> 00:17:51,309
license when on like the, I don't know,
they always do one of these pre-enrollment

306
00:17:51,309 --> 00:17:53,430
programs, so I did do that.

307
00:17:53,430 --> 00:17:56,932
I'm definitely curious to check it out,
and yeah, maybe start getting back into

308
00:17:56,932 --> 00:17:59,174
Ableton a little bit because I do miss
some features of it.

309
00:17:59,174 --> 00:18:01,195
I really loved it as a program.

310
00:18:02,922 --> 00:18:04,542
Are you using Reaper then?

311
00:18:05,923 --> 00:18:09,444
Because I hear a lot of people, I've never
used it, no.

312
00:18:09,444 --> 00:18:14,046
But I, and here's the thing, I've kind of
like, I don't know if this is even right,

313
00:18:14,046 --> 00:18:19,328
but the kind of connection I make in my
head is Reaper seems to be more for people

314
00:18:19,448 --> 00:18:26,251
that wants like complete control and
freedom.

315
00:18:26,351 --> 00:18:29,172
Kind of like the way I think about Mac and
Windows people.

316
00:18:29,172 --> 00:18:32,182
Like I use a Mac because I don't want

317
00:18:32,182 --> 00:18:34,123
to worry about the computer so much.

318
00:18:34,123 --> 00:18:37,886
I wanna work and have the computer sort of
be in the background, but I have friends

319
00:18:37,886 --> 00:18:43,491
that are more into programming and coding,
and they want that stuff front and center.

320
00:18:43,491 --> 00:18:47,114
So I don't know if that's the right way to
look at it, but that's always sort of how

321
00:18:47,114 --> 00:18:49,936
I've seen that in my head anyway.

322
00:18:49,936 --> 00:18:51,537
But maybe you can...

323
00:18:51,537 --> 00:18:53,079
There's some truth to it.

324
00:18:54,842 --> 00:18:55,723
I think...

325
00:18:57,552 --> 00:19:00,073
Yeah, I don't really know how to put it.

326
00:19:00,253 --> 00:19:05,136
What I think, let me say this, what is
great about Reaper is that you have

327
00:19:05,136 --> 00:19:07,378
endless ways to customize things.

328
00:19:07,378 --> 00:19:12,581
You can, everything can have a shortcut,
you can make macros, you can even program

329
00:19:12,581 --> 00:19:13,642
your own scripts.

330
00:19:13,642 --> 00:19:18,065
I have a bunch of custom scripts, I have a
bunch of custom visual things, endless

331
00:19:18,065 --> 00:19:18,805
customization.

332
00:19:18,805 --> 00:19:21,767
Really, anything you can think of pretty
much, you can do.

333
00:19:23,232 --> 00:19:27,635
It's fast, it's stable, it has all the
geek features.

334
00:19:27,635 --> 00:19:32,138
So like when we were talking about the
moving from the this version to the that

335
00:19:32,138 --> 00:19:38,543
version, I don't know how long this has
been in Reaper, but I can like load

336
00:19:38,543 --> 00:19:43,206
different plugin versions in different
projects and in different ways.

337
00:19:43,206 --> 00:19:46,248
So like I'm never too worried that
something's not gonna work.

338
00:19:47,069 --> 00:19:50,211
I tested this out before I updated as
well.

339
00:19:50,211 --> 00:19:50,931
And then...

340
00:19:51,376 --> 00:19:56,677
You know, like that is really nice because
even before the M1 thing, it wasn't always

341
00:19:56,677 --> 00:20:00,098
sure if like VST3 was working in Ableton
or something.

342
00:20:00,098 --> 00:20:01,319
I don't even freaking remember.

343
00:20:01,319 --> 00:20:03,980
But back then everything would always work
in Reaper.

344
00:20:03,980 --> 00:20:06,100
So that's a great benefit.

345
00:20:06,881 --> 00:20:08,721
Um, so that's amazing.

346
00:20:08,721 --> 00:20:14,423
The biggest, biggest downside to me is
that a lot of things are aesthetically not

347
00:20:14,423 --> 00:20:15,323
as pretty.

348
00:20:15,780 --> 00:20:20,901
So like they have left some things just
kind of like the default operating system

349
00:20:20,901 --> 00:20:24,763
menus and stuff, which I just think is
off-putting and it's not nice for a

350
00:20:24,763 --> 00:20:25,483
creative process.

351
00:20:25,483 --> 00:20:28,484
And I do think it's really important for
user experience.

352
00:20:30,605 --> 00:20:34,586
And because it's so customizable,
everything is different for everybody.

353
00:20:34,586 --> 00:20:37,607
So if I was working with somebody that had
Ableton,

354
00:20:37,968 --> 00:20:42,131
we could both just interchangeably work
because your shortcuts are my shortcuts

355
00:20:42,131 --> 00:20:44,533
and like we know how the system works, you
know?

356
00:20:44,533 --> 00:20:46,194
That's why it's kind of like Apple.

357
00:20:47,056 --> 00:20:51,500
But Reaper, my whole keyboard is gonna be
set up different from anybody else using

358
00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:58,766
Reaper and there's ways to like swap in
and out like shortcut sets, but nobody

359
00:20:58,766 --> 00:20:59,827
wants to do that.

360
00:21:00,628 --> 00:21:04,991
So it's like you have endless
possibilities, it's a great program.

361
00:21:05,956 --> 00:21:10,665
If you're like down in the weeds and you
want to have all the options, go for it.

362
00:21:10,665 --> 00:21:12,268
It's freaking amazing.

363
00:21:12,268 --> 00:21:14,151
But yeah.

364
00:21:14,542 --> 00:21:16,202
Mm-mm.

365
00:21:16,202 --> 00:21:19,303
Yeah, I could see how that's both good and
bad.

366
00:21:20,643 --> 00:21:24,245
Sometimes that freedom lets you do crazy,
unique stuff.

367
00:21:24,245 --> 00:21:25,085
That's all you.

368
00:21:25,085 --> 00:21:30,606
But it is also kind of nice to be invited
into a bit of a workflow.

369
00:21:31,887 --> 00:21:39,429
There's a lot of devices, instruments, and
tools I have here that I really like that

370
00:21:39,429 --> 00:21:39,989
it

371
00:21:40,142 --> 00:21:42,845
only sort of does like the one thing it
does, but it does it well.

372
00:21:42,845 --> 00:21:45,628
And there's other things that does
everything.

373
00:21:46,029 --> 00:21:50,254
And it's like, I don't even know how to
get around this thing.

374
00:21:50,275 --> 00:21:52,317
It becomes a bit overwhelming.

375
00:21:54,027 --> 00:21:58,471
I mean, like we could talk for three hours
about the differences between these

376
00:21:58,471 --> 00:22:03,296
programs and I have so many opinions about
it and like I find, I would find it hard

377
00:22:03,296 --> 00:22:07,660
to recommend any program to anybody for
particular reasons.

378
00:22:08,801 --> 00:22:14,226
But I gotta say like Reaper is so awesome
and it really deserves much more.

379
00:22:15,492 --> 00:22:19,642
users and people to be excited about it
than they have, but I also see the

380
00:22:19,642 --> 00:22:21,305
drawbacks for people, you know?

381
00:22:21,747 --> 00:22:23,570
I get it, I get both sides of it.

382
00:22:25,277 --> 00:22:28,100
Yeah, and at the end of the day, I think
it's what you know, right?

383
00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:29,881
Like where you're comfortable.

384
00:22:31,122 --> 00:22:36,587
I certainly know people that have either
like stuck to the old software or just use

385
00:22:36,587 --> 00:22:40,631
like antiquated gear, but they're really
good at it and they know how to get

386
00:22:40,631 --> 00:22:41,932
results out of it.

387
00:22:42,413 --> 00:22:42,744
So.

388
00:22:42,744 --> 00:22:43,646
the most important.

389
00:22:43,646 --> 00:22:47,011
It's just a tool to like help you make
music.

390
00:22:47,550 --> 00:22:53,691
Yeah, I think as producers ourselves, we
think that stuff's much more important

391
00:22:53,691 --> 00:22:54,671
than it is.

392
00:22:54,792 --> 00:22:59,213
We might listen to a song by an artist we
love and wonder, how do they make that?

393
00:22:59,213 --> 00:23:00,213
What software do they use?

394
00:23:00,213 --> 00:23:01,273
What synths are they using?

395
00:23:01,273 --> 00:23:03,034
Which kind of guitar is that?

396
00:23:03,234 --> 00:23:06,495
But the average person doesn't...

397
00:23:06,495 --> 00:23:09,736
Even before I got into recording, I wasn't
thinking about that stuff.

398
00:23:09,736 --> 00:23:14,997
Maybe I thought about guitar playing, but
I wasn't even thinking about what kind of

399
00:23:14,997 --> 00:23:16,177
drums are those.

400
00:23:17,182 --> 00:23:22,973
It's just, I guess when you're deep in the
weeds like that, those are the things you

401
00:23:22,973 --> 00:23:28,061
think about and that you think matter, but
it's the result is what counts.

402
00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:28,560
Yeah.

403
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,442
It's, Oh man, Brian, you're dragging,
you're dragging me down.

404
00:23:32,442 --> 00:23:33,562
You're dragging me into the weeds.

405
00:23:33,562 --> 00:23:41,146
I, yes, I totally agree with like, I
totally agree with you, but then there's

406
00:23:41,146 --> 00:23:46,409
also this part of me that is like, Oh man,
but if you can optimize your workflow in

407
00:23:46,409 --> 00:23:51,831
flow in certain ways, that can be like
huge in terms of not getting you out of

408
00:23:51,831 --> 00:23:52,691
the flow.

409
00:23:53,176 --> 00:23:56,439
And that has also benefited me greatly.

410
00:23:56,439 --> 00:23:59,722
So I kind of have this running gag with
myself.

411
00:23:59,722 --> 00:24:02,024
I'm also into home automation stuff.

412
00:24:02,024 --> 00:24:04,787
So I have a lot of home automation stuff
at home.

413
00:24:05,996 --> 00:24:09,737
There's this open platform called Home
Assistant, you might know it's really

414
00:24:09,737 --> 00:24:10,437
cool.

415
00:24:10,477 --> 00:24:15,599
And I often like joke to myself, like I've
already spent so much more time

416
00:24:15,599 --> 00:24:20,440
programming my whole smart home than any
of these automatic lights or alarm systems

417
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,801
or anything are ever gonna save me.

418
00:24:22,801 --> 00:24:27,502
It's the same with Reaper, I spent so much
time like customizing everything, that's

419
00:24:27,502 --> 00:24:29,503
more than it's ever gonna save me.

420
00:24:29,583 --> 00:24:31,524
But that feeling of like.

421
00:24:31,524 --> 00:24:36,230
You know, hitting one button when I want
my EQ with automation right in front of

422
00:24:36,230 --> 00:24:40,275
me, or I want my favorite reverb with
automation on a dry wet, right on the

423
00:24:40,275 --> 00:24:41,877
track with one button.

424
00:24:41,918 --> 00:24:44,480
And that keeps me in the process in that
moment.

425
00:24:44,942 --> 00:24:48,787
That can also be very valuable.

426
00:24:48,787 --> 00:24:49,038
So.

427
00:24:49,038 --> 00:24:53,100
you mentioned that too, the home
automation, because I recently did very

428
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:53,961
minimal.

429
00:24:54,061 --> 00:25:01,224
I can now come down to my studio here and
tell Siri to like turn it on, turn it off,

430
00:25:01,305 --> 00:25:04,006
instead of flipping on like all these
switches.

431
00:25:04,146 --> 00:25:10,549
Because as silly as it sounds, and it
makes me feel like such a lazy person,

432
00:25:12,311 --> 00:25:16,293
sometimes the thought of turning on like
six switches

433
00:25:18,010 --> 00:25:25,557
setting up a stupid microphone, say, is
enough to make me not do it sometimes.

434
00:25:25,865 --> 00:25:26,365
exactly.

435
00:25:26,365 --> 00:25:32,433
And that is if you can pass that hurdle
and make that less like more frictionless

436
00:25:32,433 --> 00:25:34,375
Like as frictionless as possible.

437
00:25:34,396 --> 00:25:40,417
That is a very valuable thing So like I
for sorry good

438
00:25:40,417 --> 00:25:44,140
I was just to finish that thought the
night I set up that system.

439
00:25:44,641 --> 00:25:48,205
I thought that was gonna be like a short
thing and then I was gonna make music and

440
00:25:48,205 --> 00:25:51,407
I just spent the whole night making the
automation.

441
00:25:53,090 --> 00:25:56,633
I didn't even touch the software or any
instruments.

442
00:25:57,865 --> 00:26:01,607
One of my best friends, I'm in this big
creative building with lots of creatives.

443
00:26:01,607 --> 00:26:04,849
And he used to be in a studio right next
to me.

444
00:26:04,849 --> 00:26:07,911
He's a photographer, like a fashion
photographer.

445
00:26:07,911 --> 00:26:09,232
And now does a lot of 3D stuff.

446
00:26:09,232 --> 00:26:12,053
He made the 3D intro for Sub Ninja as
well.

447
00:26:13,394 --> 00:26:15,655
And he used to come over here and like...

448
00:26:15,692 --> 00:26:18,553
walk past my door and knock on the door
and like we'd have coffee for hours.

449
00:26:18,553 --> 00:26:20,274
And yeah, I don't know.

450
00:26:20,274 --> 00:26:23,216
I don't know what the English word for
that would be, but like we'd sit on the

451
00:26:23,216 --> 00:26:28,719
couch and like talk about like kind of
procrastinating our work, but also how

452
00:26:28,719 --> 00:26:33,501
important that can sometimes be where you
like, you know, you kind of go through

453
00:26:33,501 --> 00:26:36,303
that motion of putting it off, but
actually maybe your subconscious is

454
00:26:36,303 --> 00:26:40,745
already kind of thinking about it and
getting things ready and preparing.

455
00:26:40,745 --> 00:26:41,986
I am a huge believer in that.

456
00:26:41,986 --> 00:26:44,607
So don't, don't see it all as wasted time.

457
00:26:44,882 --> 00:26:45,622
Yeah.

458
00:26:45,842 --> 00:26:47,743
Well, that's the funny thing about it,
right?

459
00:26:47,743 --> 00:26:54,087
Like you can really avoid the work by
doing cable management and making sure

460
00:26:54,087 --> 00:27:02,471
everything's connected and cleaning up and
rearranging, but you also get a lot back

461
00:27:02,471 --> 00:27:03,671
from that too.

462
00:27:03,992 --> 00:27:06,994
And it's, I guess it's important to just
be honest with yourself.

463
00:27:06,994 --> 00:27:08,134
What are you actually doing?

464
00:27:08,134 --> 00:27:09,135
Is this necessary?

465
00:27:09,135 --> 00:27:11,896
Are you avoiding the task?

466
00:27:12,236 --> 00:27:14,497
But as you said, sometimes.

467
00:27:14,646 --> 00:27:21,043
Just doing that stuff lets the ideas kind
of ferment in your mind a little bit and

468
00:27:21,043 --> 00:27:23,909
play around and straighten themselves out.

469
00:27:24,108 --> 00:27:24,988
Exactly.

470
00:27:24,988 --> 00:27:30,332
And I, to me, like the difference is, are
you like exactly what you're saying?

471
00:27:30,332 --> 00:27:31,352
Are you honest with yourself?

472
00:27:31,352 --> 00:27:35,275
You know, it's like the difference between
the person that is going to the gym every

473
00:27:35,275 --> 00:27:37,837
day, but it's just having coffees there
and talking.

474
00:27:37,837 --> 00:27:38,017
Yeah.

475
00:27:38,017 --> 00:27:40,919
Then you're going to the gym and then
you're not doing anything there.

476
00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:43,640
But like, yeah, exactly.

477
00:27:44,902 --> 00:27:45,922
Then nothing is happening.

478
00:27:45,922 --> 00:27:49,565
But if you actually go there and like,
okay, you know, maybe some days you don't

479
00:27:49,565 --> 00:27:53,427
do anything and you're chatting and you're
making friends, but like, if you.

480
00:27:53,836 --> 00:27:58,402
are using those friends the next time to
come back to train harder, that's when

481
00:27:58,402 --> 00:27:59,163
it's useful.

482
00:27:59,163 --> 00:28:00,425
And that's the distinction, you know?

483
00:28:00,425 --> 00:28:04,170
So like if somebody was like just telling
me how they got the most perfect setup,

484
00:28:04,170 --> 00:28:08,416
but never made a song yet, then you're on
the wrong side of that, the balance that

485
00:28:08,416 --> 00:28:09,317
you need to strike.

486
00:28:09,317 --> 00:28:11,099
Both things are really important.

487
00:28:11,786 --> 00:28:19,974
Yeah, yeah, and I guess there's, you know,
evidence that some of that's so extra.

488
00:28:21,296 --> 00:28:27,183
I was talking recently on a podcast and
they were telling me about somebody that

489
00:28:27,183 --> 00:28:32,829
was working on an album and I guess like
their system crashed, you know, and.

490
00:28:33,054 --> 00:28:38,536
In order to finish the album, they went to
the Apple store with the USB stick and put

491
00:28:38,536 --> 00:28:43,319
it into Logic and was just like kind of
working at those computers for as long as

492
00:28:43,319 --> 00:28:45,900
they, so they caught him basically.

493
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,661
And then he just kind of come back later.

494
00:28:48,821 --> 00:28:53,984
But like there's like the other end of
that where just I'm going to get the work

495
00:28:53,984 --> 00:28:57,443
done and do what you got to do.

496
00:28:57,443 --> 00:29:01,328
also need that mindset and that, you know,
you also need to finish sometimes for

497
00:29:01,328 --> 00:29:01,628
real.

498
00:29:01,628 --> 00:29:02,869
It's super important.

499
00:29:03,006 --> 00:29:03,747
Yeah.

500
00:29:03,849 --> 00:29:04,251
Yep.

501
00:29:04,251 --> 00:29:08,445
The thing we get the least amount of
practice doing is the finishing part.

502
00:29:08,496 --> 00:29:12,017
Yeah, like you mean the finishing of the
songs?

503
00:29:12,298 --> 00:29:14,302
Yeah, yeah, that whole end process.

504
00:29:14,302 --> 00:29:15,905
We start them all the time, right?

505
00:29:15,905 --> 00:29:18,429
And after a while you get good at that.

506
00:29:18,490 --> 00:29:24,100
But to get to the end of the race, that's
the hardest place to be.

507
00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:25,861
Yeah, absolutely.

508
00:29:25,861 --> 00:29:26,361
Absolutely.

509
00:29:26,361 --> 00:29:32,645
Especially when you don't have like real,
uh, real world deadlines, you know, like I

510
00:29:32,645 --> 00:29:37,308
was last week, I was doing a podcast with
these Dutch guys, um, also dance

511
00:29:37,308 --> 00:29:41,710
producers, uh, artist coaching, Joey
Zucchi and, um, and Jay Hardway.

512
00:29:41,710 --> 00:29:45,113
And we were talking about this thing as
well, where, you know, like finishing

513
00:29:45,113 --> 00:29:49,495
tracks, that's like so important if
you're, if you're a beginner and.

514
00:29:50,180 --> 00:29:56,002
If you want to learn how to make music
fast, give yourself like a deadlines.

515
00:29:56,383 --> 00:30:00,065
You know, it doesn't matter if it's
perfect or not, like finish the things up

516
00:30:00,065 --> 00:30:01,566
to where it's a whole thing.

517
00:30:01,786 --> 00:30:04,828
And that, like, like you said, like that
might be the thing we get the least

518
00:30:04,828 --> 00:30:09,910
practice in, but if you can take any idea
and finish that into a song, like you

519
00:30:09,910 --> 00:30:13,893
could give me any eight bar loop and I
could make that into a song to you.

520
00:30:13,893 --> 00:30:19,195
Like if I, I've done a, I've done a lot of
remixes and

521
00:30:19,696 --> 00:30:21,457
Yeah, you know, they have deadlines.

522
00:30:21,457 --> 00:30:24,278
It's easier when other people give you
deadlines because then you feel the

523
00:30:24,278 --> 00:30:25,159
pressure.

524
00:30:25,319 --> 00:30:26,580
It's much easier.

525
00:30:26,580 --> 00:30:31,363
But like I would just know, you know, like
I take a week to make the remix and I knew

526
00:30:31,363 --> 00:30:33,203
at the end of the week it was gonna be
done.

527
00:30:33,264 --> 00:30:34,545
It might not be perfect.

528
00:30:34,545 --> 00:30:37,066
Might not be my favorite remix, but it was
gonna be done.

529
00:30:37,927 --> 00:30:39,727
You know, and actually...

530
00:30:39,896 --> 00:30:44,579
I think as you go along, I'm totally off
on a tangent now, I'm sorry, but I think

531
00:30:44,579 --> 00:30:48,261
if you go along long enough, you'll find
out that, you know, what might be like a

532
00:30:48,261 --> 00:30:52,985
six and a half for you because you're so
like deep into it and you don't even

533
00:30:52,985 --> 00:30:55,066
freaking know left from right anymore.

534
00:30:55,366 --> 00:30:59,089
Then maybe actually it's actually good in
the real world.

535
00:30:59,109 --> 00:31:02,271
It's good enough or like, I don't, I don't
really like saying that because that makes

536
00:31:02,271 --> 00:31:05,413
it sounds like, Oh, I'm just half-assing
things as long as it's good enough.

537
00:31:05,413 --> 00:31:06,634
That's not how I perceive it.

538
00:31:06,634 --> 00:31:08,415
But sometimes

539
00:31:09,052 --> 00:31:11,776
We're probably all more perfectionistic
than we need to be.

540
00:31:11,776 --> 00:31:15,180
So sometimes we just got to be like, Hey
man, this is good enough.

541
00:31:15,781 --> 00:31:16,922
Onto the next one.

542
00:31:17,610 --> 00:31:21,832
Yeah, that's a good point because there
is, I think we all have that, right?

543
00:31:21,832 --> 00:31:26,894
That perfectionism and if not, we at least
have like the critic that will come in and

544
00:31:26,894 --> 00:31:30,316
be like, I don't know, are people going to
like this?

545
00:31:30,316 --> 00:31:31,096
Is this good enough?

546
00:31:31,096 --> 00:31:32,077
Is this smart enough?

547
00:31:32,077 --> 00:31:34,338
Did you clean it up enough?

548
00:31:36,079 --> 00:31:40,941
When you're working on like those types of
deadlines, how do you get around that?

549
00:31:41,966 --> 00:31:45,392
Because like you said, sometimes you don't
know which way is up and down, left and

550
00:31:45,392 --> 00:31:45,592
right.

551
00:31:45,592 --> 00:31:46,754
You're so in the...

552
00:31:46,754 --> 00:31:48,757
you're too close to it almost.

553
00:31:48,940 --> 00:31:49,820
Yeah, man.

554
00:31:49,820 --> 00:31:54,401
I mean, I've, I've said in the past that
my songs are finished either when I stop

555
00:31:54,401 --> 00:31:58,562
working on them or when I die, you know,
like, cause you can always keep tweaking,

556
00:31:58,562 --> 00:32:06,784
um, but yeah, I, the thing is like, okay,
so just to give you like a real answer,

557
00:32:06,784 --> 00:32:07,845
how I really think about it.

558
00:32:07,845 --> 00:32:12,166
It's, and it's not maybe like the most
obvious one-liner there is, but you need

559
00:32:12,166 --> 00:32:15,767
to strike that balance between being that
guy in a gym that goes there to do

560
00:32:15,767 --> 00:32:16,547
nothing.

561
00:32:16,547 --> 00:32:17,167
And.

562
00:32:18,108 --> 00:32:21,230
the person in the gym that goes there to
train.

563
00:32:21,610 --> 00:32:26,094
I need to strike a balance between
finishing tracks and making new stuff and

564
00:32:26,094 --> 00:32:27,095
exploring.

565
00:32:27,095 --> 00:32:28,816
And those are different things.

566
00:32:28,876 --> 00:32:34,040
You don't need to have different time
schedules for it, but when I have a remix

567
00:32:34,561 --> 00:32:37,503
request assignment, then there is a
deadline.

568
00:32:38,904 --> 00:32:44,489
When you do this professionally, you
cannot spend limitless time on every track

569
00:32:44,489 --> 00:32:47,271
that you make because this is your job.

570
00:32:47,832 --> 00:32:53,056
And I've gotten now to the point where
that's just so ingrained in me because

571
00:32:53,056 --> 00:32:58,921
that's what I learned, but way in the
beginning, there was a time when I was

572
00:32:58,921 --> 00:33:01,623
doing bootlegs and remix competitions.

573
00:33:01,623 --> 00:33:07,528
And one of the first things that got the
hymn started was a remix competition for

574
00:33:07,528 --> 00:33:11,731
Chesto, and the idea was to make that in
24 hours.

575
00:33:11,731 --> 00:33:16,595
So I would make the track, mix the track,
master the track all in 24 hours.

576
00:33:16,595 --> 00:33:17,340
I think.

577
00:33:17,340 --> 00:33:21,542
that they started at like nine o'clock and
ended at like two o'clock, but then it was

578
00:33:21,542 --> 00:33:22,303
done.

579
00:33:22,303 --> 00:33:25,825
And it was handed in and it got second
place, I think.

580
00:33:26,746 --> 00:33:30,388
And that was one of the first times I
thought like, hey man, shit, this is like,

581
00:33:31,049 --> 00:33:32,290
yo, this is something real.

582
00:33:32,290 --> 00:33:36,272
People like this has value in a way, you
know?

583
00:33:36,433 --> 00:33:38,294
But that was an arbitrary deadline.

584
00:33:38,294 --> 00:33:41,016
Like I was just busy doing other things as
well.

585
00:33:41,176 --> 00:33:43,598
So I thought like this needs to happen in
a short timeframe.

586
00:33:43,598 --> 00:33:46,439
This is all I have and it's just gonna
happen, you know?

587
00:33:46,626 --> 00:33:47,273
Hmm.

588
00:33:47,392 --> 00:33:49,833
And this is something anybody can do.

589
00:33:50,334 --> 00:33:52,096
Anybody can give themselves a deadline.

590
00:33:52,096 --> 00:33:56,700
I'm gonna finish one track a week, one
track a day, one track a month.

591
00:33:56,700 --> 00:34:00,383
It doesn't matter what it is, as long as
you make that deadline for yourself and

592
00:34:00,383 --> 00:34:01,443
stick to it.

593
00:34:01,584 --> 00:34:02,885
And it doesn't need to be perfect.

594
00:34:02,885 --> 00:34:05,967
This is the whole inner struggles is real.

595
00:34:05,967 --> 00:34:07,888
I have that too, everybody has that.

596
00:34:08,009 --> 00:34:11,791
But if you have that bigger goal of
like...

597
00:34:12,085 --> 00:34:13,868
I'm actually learning how to finish this.

598
00:34:13,868 --> 00:34:17,435
I'm not learning how to make the perfect
song because that's never gonna happen.

599
00:34:17,617 --> 00:34:20,121
I am practicing now finishing stuff.

600
00:34:20,643 --> 00:34:22,847
And then that's what you gotta set out to
do.

601
00:34:24,216 --> 00:34:28,286
I like that way of thinking, like just the
practice finishing.

602
00:34:29,971 --> 00:34:32,416
I recently had somebody in my...

603
00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:38,634
Discord for my music production clubs say
something like, I can't make songs, I

604
00:34:38,634 --> 00:34:39,095
can't do it.

605
00:34:39,095 --> 00:34:43,999
I'm like, my response was, I bet you can
make really bad songs.

606
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:46,981
Make terrible songs.

607
00:34:47,462 --> 00:34:50,644
And I think that was one of the first
episodes I ever did of this podcast was

608
00:34:50,644 --> 00:34:52,726
just called Make Bad Music.

609
00:34:53,927 --> 00:34:56,869
Just for the sake of getting through the
practice.

610
00:34:57,710 --> 00:35:01,513
I guess it's why sports.

611
00:35:01,514 --> 00:35:04,894
teams will have scrimmages, you know, that
don't count.

612
00:35:04,894 --> 00:35:08,976
It's just a matter of going through the
game, getting the practice in, and if you

613
00:35:08,976 --> 00:35:10,576
lose, you lose, who cares?

614
00:35:11,216 --> 00:35:17,878
But it's so important to just know what
it's going to look like when you get

615
00:35:17,878 --> 00:35:21,519
there, when you get to the next stage, and
what's going to happen next, to just get

616
00:35:21,519 --> 00:35:22,820
the practice.

617
00:35:22,820 --> 00:35:27,821
So even making songs that aren't good,
that you don't like, aren't failures.

618
00:35:27,821 --> 00:35:29,241
They're just...

619
00:35:30,146 --> 00:35:32,988
You know, they have reps at the gym, you
know.

620
00:35:33,169 --> 00:35:37,755
Maybe they weren't your personal best
bench press, but you still did a bench

621
00:35:37,755 --> 00:35:38,616
press.

622
00:35:39,557 --> 00:35:43,216
You didn't go backwards, you didn't stay
the same, you moved forward a little bit.

623
00:35:43,216 --> 00:35:49,181
Yeah, no, that's so well put, like making,
like sometimes that's just the assignment

624
00:35:49,181 --> 00:35:53,024
you gotta give yourself, you know, make a
shitty track, make a shitty song.

625
00:35:53,024 --> 00:35:59,729
I do that too, you know, I make them
inadvertently, but I also give myself the,

626
00:35:59,949 --> 00:36:04,132
maybe, like the assignment or like the
permission to make something bad and then,

627
00:36:04,393 --> 00:36:07,575
yeah, you do that often enough, then
something good might pop out.

628
00:36:09,259 --> 00:36:09,459
Yeah.

629
00:36:09,459 --> 00:36:12,382
Yeah, you have to have that permission is
a good way to put it.

630
00:36:12,382 --> 00:36:14,103
Like allow yourself.

631
00:36:14,384 --> 00:36:18,688
That's where I get stuck is as soon as I
start questioning if it's any good, if I'm

632
00:36:18,688 --> 00:36:24,353
doing it right or if people are going to
like it or or, you know, is it I always

633
00:36:24,353 --> 00:36:26,175
think about like, is it clever enough?

634
00:36:26,175 --> 00:36:28,657
You know, all these chords are too common.

635
00:36:28,657 --> 00:36:31,200
I always get hung up on that, you know.

636
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:32,661
And the funny thing is.

637
00:36:33,266 --> 00:36:36,027
So much of what I love is so simple
musically.

638
00:36:36,027 --> 00:36:40,429
You know, it's maybe got a thing or two
that's interesting, but basically, you

639
00:36:40,429 --> 00:36:46,411
know, first month of music theory covers
what they're doing in these songs.

640
00:36:48,932 --> 00:36:56,035
But it's so funny that a lot of, if you
just kind of follow through on ideas too,

641
00:36:56,035 --> 00:36:59,197
they almost always reveal something.

642
00:36:59,197 --> 00:37:01,577
Something interesting can happen from it.

643
00:37:01,863 --> 00:37:02,290
Hmm.

644
00:37:02,290 --> 00:37:05,912
I've seen it in myself when I forced
myself to do it, but I've especially seen

645
00:37:05,912 --> 00:37:10,695
it watching friends or other people that
are working on a song where I might

646
00:37:10,695 --> 00:37:13,036
actually think like, that's a bad idea.

647
00:37:13,076 --> 00:37:14,096
It's dumb.

648
00:37:14,297 --> 00:37:16,057
Just try something new.

649
00:37:16,298 --> 00:37:19,339
And then the next time I hear it, it's
great.

650
00:37:19,940 --> 00:37:21,280
It's so much better.

651
00:37:22,461 --> 00:37:27,104
It's so funny how often that happens and
whether it's from me doing it and just

652
00:37:27,104 --> 00:37:29,285
following through or watching someone else
do it.

653
00:37:30,114 --> 00:37:33,547
that it makes me feel like you just never
ever know.

654
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:35,240
Yeah.

655
00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:36,581
And it's so hard, man.

656
00:37:36,581 --> 00:37:39,682
It's so hard to do that right, you know,
to get that balance right.

657
00:37:39,682 --> 00:37:44,685
Like I do, or I used to do definitely a
lot, a lot of like writing sessions with

658
00:37:44,685 --> 00:37:52,288
songwriters and, and get to get songs, you
know, and, um, and then like often,

659
00:37:52,528 --> 00:37:55,990
especially in the beginning, I would like
be halfway, you know, in the first hour

660
00:37:55,990 --> 00:37:57,391
thinking, ah, this is total crap.

661
00:37:57,391 --> 00:37:59,291
Like this is, it's not going to happen.

662
00:37:59,435 --> 00:37:59,804
Yeah.

663
00:37:59,804 --> 00:38:03,867
But I've learned that one of the best
things you can do is just like, go with

664
00:38:03,867 --> 00:38:04,247
it, man.

665
00:38:04,247 --> 00:38:06,369
And then just say like, oh, why don't we
record this one?

666
00:38:06,369 --> 00:38:09,852
Cause like people, that's how you keep
going.

667
00:38:09,852 --> 00:38:12,995
You know, like maybe they needed to get
that out of the system to get to the next

668
00:38:12,995 --> 00:38:13,235
song.

669
00:38:13,235 --> 00:38:15,277
You don't know what sparks that next idea.

670
00:38:15,277 --> 00:38:19,480
And like, just like you said, your friend
might play you something that you think

671
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,722
like this is total crap.

672
00:38:21,843 --> 00:38:27,067
But then next week, actually you hear the
variation on what spawned from that little

673
00:38:27,067 --> 00:38:28,027
bit of crap.

674
00:38:28,425 --> 00:38:32,137
And that could be a great song, you know,
like that's just how this weird creativity

675
00:38:32,137 --> 00:38:33,279
thing works.

676
00:38:34,718 --> 00:38:42,664
Yeah, it's so funny that it's like, I
guess just the future is unknown, right?

677
00:38:42,664 --> 00:38:46,186
Like anything can happen and that's just
the way these songs work.

678
00:38:48,227 --> 00:38:53,751
I hope people aren't getting tired of me
mentioning this, but in January, I do the

679
00:38:53,751 --> 00:38:57,093
Jammuary challenge to make something every
single day.

680
00:38:57,413 --> 00:38:58,033
And...

681
00:38:59,182 --> 00:39:04,406
The beauty of it is, is just that you just
usually don't have time to decide if you

682
00:39:04,406 --> 00:39:06,328
like it or not.

683
00:39:06,328 --> 00:39:07,529
You don't have that luxury.

684
00:39:07,529 --> 00:39:11,312
It's like you're running out of time, it's
getting late, you gotta finish it.

685
00:39:11,732 --> 00:39:13,094
Just you gotta see it through.

686
00:39:13,094 --> 00:39:15,916
You gotta get it to some presentable
point.

687
00:39:15,916 --> 00:39:17,277
And the bar is really low.

688
00:39:17,277 --> 00:39:19,719
It doesn't have to be a finished song or
anything.

689
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:26,025
But man, it blows my mind when I listen
back to some of that stuff and I'm like, I

690
00:39:26,025 --> 00:39:27,134
really thought this was...

691
00:39:27,134 --> 00:39:30,898
junk when I was making it and I was just
trying to get it done but like I kind of

692
00:39:30,898 --> 00:39:31,238
like it.

693
00:39:31,238 --> 00:39:32,359
There's something nice about it.

694
00:39:32,359 --> 00:39:36,784
There's something interesting going on
here and also just the sense of

695
00:39:36,784 --> 00:39:40,828
satisfaction that it's not impossible.

696
00:39:41,048 --> 00:39:42,289
You can do it.

697
00:39:42,453 --> 00:39:43,414
Exactly.

698
00:39:44,055 --> 00:39:45,897
And great, great challenge.

699
00:39:45,897 --> 00:39:51,322
Everybody that wants to be serious about
making music should try stuff like that.

700
00:39:52,043 --> 00:39:57,628
Um, and there you go, you know, and it's
going to hurt and some stuff is going to

701
00:39:57,628 --> 00:39:57,929
suck.

702
00:39:57,929 --> 00:40:00,651
And I'm pretty sure there's also research
out on like.

703
00:40:00,796 --> 00:40:04,938
that actually the most successful
creatives are usually also the people that

704
00:40:04,938 --> 00:40:09,140
produce the most things so they have more
to pick from.

705
00:40:10,321 --> 00:40:15,944
Again, this is all definitely a balancing
act and it's never as simple, but yeah.

706
00:40:16,185 --> 00:40:19,827
Yeah, I would even, it would be great for
me to do something like that again as well

707
00:40:19,827 --> 00:40:19,947
soon.

708
00:40:19,947 --> 00:40:20,547
And...

709
00:40:20,938 --> 00:40:26,280
Yeah, most of my favorite people that talk
about songwriting and music production

710
00:40:27,021 --> 00:40:29,722
talk about it just like it's this everyday
thing.

711
00:40:29,722 --> 00:40:31,083
You just show up and put in the work.

712
00:40:31,083 --> 00:40:33,164
You don't wait till you're inspired.

713
00:40:33,424 --> 00:40:34,885
Maybe you got to find it.

714
00:40:34,885 --> 00:40:39,427
You got to sort of hunt it down and just
see it through.

715
00:40:42,549 --> 00:40:45,171
Yeah, you got to be at the pond, right?

716
00:40:46,932 --> 00:40:49,513
You can't be at home being like, oh.

717
00:40:50,346 --> 00:40:52,607
It'd be great to catch a fish right now.

718
00:40:54,629 --> 00:40:55,309
Yeah.

719
00:40:56,531 --> 00:40:59,193
Right.

720
00:40:59,193 --> 00:41:04,998
Jeff Tweedy from Wilco has a new book,
fairly new, where he talks about songs

721
00:41:04,998 --> 00:41:07,700
that affected him throughout his life.

722
00:41:08,161 --> 00:41:11,103
Good or bad, and some of the songs he
talks about he doesn't even like.

723
00:41:12,565 --> 00:41:16,888
One song he talks about was Dolly Parton's
I Will Always Love You, the one that

724
00:41:16,888 --> 00:41:18,189
Whitney Houston did.

725
00:41:19,546 --> 00:41:23,869
And the thing that just stuck with me is
like, she wrote that the same day she

726
00:41:23,869 --> 00:41:25,210
wrote Jolene.

727
00:41:26,191 --> 00:41:35,419
So this one day, Dolly Parton sat down and
busted out two timeless classic songs that

728
00:41:35,419 --> 00:41:42,945
people still know and love today and have
been covered, probably have set up

729
00:41:42,945 --> 00:41:46,948
generations of her family financially.

730
00:41:48,758 --> 00:41:50,680
What if she didn't show up that day?

731
00:41:51,703 --> 00:41:57,814
What if she was tired or just, you know,
decided to do something else, you know,

732
00:41:57,814 --> 00:41:59,937
watch TV or something?

733
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:01,821
Yeah, but Brian, let's be real.

734
00:42:01,821 --> 00:42:02,381
We don't know.

735
00:42:02,381 --> 00:42:05,503
Maybe she stayed home the day before and
that's why she wrote those bangers the

736
00:42:05,503 --> 00:42:08,725
next day.

737
00:42:08,725 --> 00:42:09,346
I don't know.

738
00:42:09,346 --> 00:42:11,667
No, it's, uh, yeah.

739
00:42:13,529 --> 00:42:14,469
She definitely did.

740
00:42:14,469 --> 00:42:14,770
Yeah.

741
00:42:14,770 --> 00:42:16,090
And one thing is for sure.

742
00:42:16,090 --> 00:42:18,952
If you don't go fishing, you're not going
to catch anything.

743
00:42:18,952 --> 00:42:22,835
Um, yeah, I've, I always find it so hard.

744
00:42:22,835 --> 00:42:28,699
Like I've definitely come to learn that
I'm, I'm very much an advice seeker.

745
00:42:28,699 --> 00:42:29,579
So like.

746
00:42:30,296 --> 00:42:34,619
I've read a lot of books and listened to
podcasts and I love learning about

747
00:42:34,619 --> 00:42:35,380
creativity.

748
00:42:35,380 --> 00:42:41,546
A lot of the things we're talking about
and we're thinking about and you're

749
00:42:41,546 --> 00:42:45,089
talking about and mentioning, they really
hit close to home.

750
00:42:45,089 --> 00:42:51,795
But I've also learned much more that in
different phases of my creative life, I've

751
00:42:51,795 --> 00:42:53,155
learned much

752
00:42:53,724 --> 00:42:56,825
The opposite advice can be the advice that
I need.

753
00:42:56,825 --> 00:43:00,806
So I'm always a little bit hesitant to
even say like, oh, you got to show up

754
00:43:00,806 --> 00:43:04,468
every day to go fishing, you know?

755
00:43:04,468 --> 00:43:09,670
Because maybe the person listening to this
right now actually needs to hear from us,

756
00:43:09,830 --> 00:43:16,973
hey, man, or, you know, like, yeah, man,
you've been fishing like five weeks

757
00:43:16,973 --> 00:43:19,554
straight and it's not biting, that's fine.

758
00:43:19,554 --> 00:43:22,055
You need, like, maybe you need to take a
breath.

759
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:29,350
And I think probably it's going to sound
very lame, but probably the most wisdom is

760
00:43:29,350 --> 00:43:33,994
coming from knowing in which phase you are
yourself.

761
00:43:33,994 --> 00:43:35,334
Hmm.

762
00:43:35,334 --> 00:43:41,056
That's great advice there, that your
advice doesn't always apply that you

763
00:43:41,056 --> 00:43:41,977
receive.

764
00:43:42,237 --> 00:43:45,938
And yeah, sometimes if you're showing up
every day, maybe you're getting stuck in a

765
00:43:45,938 --> 00:43:51,280
rut and a pattern that a little space will
allow you to try something new.

766
00:43:53,001 --> 00:43:53,561
Um.

767
00:43:53,926 --> 00:43:58,607
I recently came across something, because
I'm the same way, I like to learn about

768
00:43:58,607 --> 00:44:01,728
learning and getting advice and all of
that.

769
00:44:01,728 --> 00:44:05,489
Thinking like one day I'm going to get the
secret answer, right?

770
00:44:05,489 --> 00:44:06,909
That will help me forever.

771
00:44:06,949 --> 00:44:09,150
But it was about practicing.

772
00:44:09,150 --> 00:44:17,172
How people that practice for short periods
of time and then take a break and then

773
00:44:17,172 --> 00:44:20,493
practice again for short periods of time,
take a break, wind up...

774
00:44:22,646 --> 00:44:29,089
like, what do you call it, retaining and
growing with that practice a lot faster

775
00:44:29,089 --> 00:44:34,212
than the people that will sit down for
like three hours, nonstop, and work on it.

776
00:44:34,212 --> 00:44:39,795
There's something about that taking short
breaks, you know, every couple minutes, to

777
00:44:39,795 --> 00:44:43,657
just kind of let it set in, and then
coming back.

778
00:44:44,758 --> 00:44:49,921
And I felt that in my own playing, in my
own songwriting, sometimes when I take a

779
00:44:49,921 --> 00:44:50,741
break,

780
00:44:51,446 --> 00:44:53,027
When I come back, I'm a little fresher.

781
00:44:53,027 --> 00:44:58,530
I'm more apt to try something new or more
excited even.

782
00:44:58,530 --> 00:45:03,673
Sometimes it's just, you just need a
little break to get excited again.

783
00:45:05,856 --> 00:45:06,116
Yeah.

784
00:45:06,116 --> 00:45:06,956
Yeah, I totally agree.

785
00:45:06,956 --> 00:45:13,198
I would again say in this example, the
hardest part is knowing when you need that

786
00:45:13,198 --> 00:45:16,939
break and when you need to stick it out.

787
00:45:17,219 --> 00:45:20,220
And I can tell you, I suck at that.

788
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:26,482
I always go on too long to the point where
I'm like completely over it and like, oh,

789
00:45:26,482 --> 00:45:31,483
you know, it start feeling, starts feeling
annoying and like a chore and then.

790
00:45:32,272 --> 00:45:37,076
Yeah, you know, there's, I mean, I think
it's probably also part of my creative

791
00:45:37,076 --> 00:45:40,438
experience, at least that it goes in waves
and ups and downs.

792
00:45:40,438 --> 00:45:48,305
And yeah, you got to, you got to still
have that mentality of keep on going with

793
00:45:48,305 --> 00:45:49,786
the whole project.

794
00:45:52,272 --> 00:45:56,955
But yes, sometimes learning involves
taking it in bite-sized chunks and taking

795
00:45:56,955 --> 00:45:57,476
breaks.

796
00:45:57,476 --> 00:46:03,160
And there might also be times where it
actually means, no, now you just got to

797
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:04,021
grind.

798
00:46:05,042 --> 00:46:07,444
And to know which is which, I don't know,
man.

799
00:46:07,444 --> 00:46:12,048
If you could tell me, like when I was
saying it would be wisdom to know which

800
00:46:12,048 --> 00:46:15,010
part you should pick, I was meaning, I
don't know.

801
00:46:15,010 --> 00:46:19,173
You know, I absolutely suck at this.

802
00:46:19,173 --> 00:46:22,195
So that's a hard one.

803
00:46:23,404 --> 00:46:30,750
I think that's why back traditionally we
had producers and people like that to tell

804
00:46:30,750 --> 00:46:31,290
you.

805
00:46:31,290 --> 00:46:34,012
Almost like you have a trainer at a gym
that'd be like, no, you need to push

806
00:46:34,012 --> 00:46:36,274
harder or now it's time to rest.

807
00:46:36,754 --> 00:46:39,596
You kind of need some sort of direction
there.

808
00:46:39,737 --> 00:46:42,439
But now we're doing that all ourselves.

809
00:46:42,439 --> 00:46:43,720
So we need to...

810
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:45,621
You need to kind of like...

811
00:46:45,798 --> 00:46:49,807
let go of yourself so that you can get
creative, but you also need to be in touch

812
00:46:49,807 --> 00:46:55,017
with yourself to know there's so many
opposing things.

813
00:46:56,512 --> 00:47:00,173
Yeah, it's kind of like meditating, you
know, like sitting down and trying not to

814
00:47:00,173 --> 00:47:00,613
think.

815
00:47:00,613 --> 00:47:03,194
Like it's crazy, it's impossible.

816
00:47:03,214 --> 00:47:06,916
Yeah, it's the same with this.

817
00:47:06,916 --> 00:47:12,478
What would be your biggest challenge that
you are like, that you face on the regular

818
00:47:12,478 --> 00:47:14,098
or that you are in right now?

819
00:47:14,098 --> 00:47:17,619
Like how do you perceive that in the
creative process?

820
00:47:18,666 --> 00:47:24,992
Um, I don't know, cause I feel like every
single part of it is hard.

821
00:47:26,053 --> 00:47:27,034
That's where I'm at right now.

822
00:47:27,034 --> 00:47:31,198
Like starting is hard, finishing is hard,
sticking with it is hard.

823
00:47:31,319 --> 00:47:33,200
Staying focused is hard.

824
00:47:33,501 --> 00:47:34,101
Um.

825
00:47:36,506 --> 00:47:44,872
I think that I'm trying to just remind
myself that it's always like the first

826
00:47:44,872 --> 00:47:49,917
part of everything that's hard for me,
whether it's actually getting started or

827
00:47:49,917 --> 00:47:51,878
moving on to the next part.

828
00:47:51,878 --> 00:47:56,542
Say I've got like a loop I'm working on,
you know, I might be feeling real good,

829
00:47:56,542 --> 00:48:00,044
but like, all right, now let's come up
with some place for this to go.

830
00:48:00,445 --> 00:48:05,929
All these transitional moments, I think,
are where I get hung up.

831
00:48:06,678 --> 00:48:09,665
Maybe I'm dividing things into stages too
much or...

832
00:48:12,835 --> 00:48:13,366
Oh, I don't know.

833
00:48:13,366 --> 00:48:16,266
mixing and recording and editing?

834
00:48:16,266 --> 00:48:21,751
Yeah, I guess writing, recording,
sometimes I'm doing them all at once.

835
00:48:22,192 --> 00:48:24,655
Um, a lot of times I'm doing them all at
once actually.

836
00:48:24,655 --> 00:48:29,420
So there's a lot of switching gears, I
guess.

837
00:48:29,821 --> 00:48:30,781
And, uh,

838
00:48:33,675 --> 00:48:34,797
That's tricky.

839
00:48:35,420 --> 00:48:41,135
That's where every time you switch, I
think, you run the risk of falling off the

840
00:48:41,135 --> 00:48:42,597
track a little bit.

841
00:48:42,811 --> 00:48:43,395
Yeah.

842
00:48:45,706 --> 00:48:48,046
Yeah, I don't know.

843
00:48:48,046 --> 00:48:51,527
And you've kind of said it already, but
this stuff is still hard for you.

844
00:48:51,527 --> 00:48:54,748
And everyone I talk to says it's hard.

845
00:48:54,888 --> 00:48:57,369
So I take a little bit of comfort in that.

846
00:48:57,409 --> 00:49:02,931
Not that I want my suffering to be wished
upon anybody, but it is kind of nice to

847
00:49:02,931 --> 00:49:07,352
know that these things are hard and that's
part of it.

848
00:49:07,692 --> 00:49:12,454
So I'm at my best when I realize that in
the moment.

849
00:49:12,598 --> 00:49:15,820
when I'm like, yeah, this is hard, but
that's good.

850
00:49:16,001 --> 00:49:17,842
We want this to be hard, you know?

851
00:49:17,842 --> 00:49:19,884
If it was easy, it wouldn't matter.

852
00:49:21,526 --> 00:49:24,288
If it was easy, anyone could do it.

853
00:49:24,288 --> 00:49:28,912
And if it was easy when you did it, what
would be the big deal?

854
00:49:29,112 --> 00:49:29,892
Yeah.

855
00:49:30,173 --> 00:49:34,396
So, and if it was easy, I'm probably not
learning anything either.

856
00:49:34,397 --> 00:49:40,141
So every time it gets hard is kind of a
good thing, but...

857
00:49:40,842 --> 00:49:42,542
That's when I can remember that in the
moment.

858
00:49:42,542 --> 00:49:44,343
I need a sign, you know?

859
00:49:46,645 --> 00:49:48,646
Like something that's, I need to sum it
up.

860
00:49:48,646 --> 00:49:55,372
Like if it's difficult, it's good, or if
you're struggling, that's good.

861
00:49:55,372 --> 00:49:58,533
are some of those like the obstacles, the
way you kind of thought.

862
00:49:58,533 --> 00:50:04,174
And I don't know if you it's kind of like,
yeah, yeah.

863
00:50:05,235 --> 00:50:05,995
I think I might have read it.

864
00:50:05,995 --> 00:50:10,136
It's not that I'm not really recommending
that book, but I'm more meaning like that

865
00:50:10,136 --> 00:50:11,417
idea is out there.

866
00:50:11,417 --> 00:50:13,017
And there's definitely a lot of truth in
there.

867
00:50:13,017 --> 00:50:19,099
You know, like usually where you feel the
most resistance, that's probably where the

868
00:50:19,099 --> 00:50:20,839
most growth is as well.

869
00:50:20,888 --> 00:50:21,556
Yeah.

870
00:50:22,564 --> 00:50:27,585
And also a lot of opportunity for like,
you know, the satisfaction of overcoming

871
00:50:27,585 --> 00:50:28,345
that.

872
00:50:29,125 --> 00:50:31,246
Uh, yeah, that resistance.

873
00:50:31,526 --> 00:50:36,588
There's this great book by, um, Stephen,
the war of art.

874
00:50:36,588 --> 00:50:37,168
It's over there.

875
00:50:37,168 --> 00:50:39,228
So what's his last name again?

876
00:50:39,889 --> 00:50:40,449
Pressfield.

877
00:50:40,449 --> 00:50:40,749
Yes.

878
00:50:40,749 --> 00:50:41,289
Great book.

879
00:50:41,289 --> 00:50:45,230
He talks about the resistance and I've
read it a bunch of times and it always

880
00:50:45,230 --> 00:50:48,871
gives me a little bit of that jolt again,
like, ah, you know, you got to.

881
00:50:49,544 --> 00:50:51,086
It's the enemy that you gotta fight.

882
00:50:51,086 --> 00:50:53,990
And I think that's what you're kind of
naming as well.

883
00:50:53,990 --> 00:50:57,555
That obstacle, that resistance, that's
what you're up against.

884
00:50:57,950 --> 00:50:58,190
Right.

885
00:50:58,190 --> 00:51:04,934
And I love that he put it to a name,
resistance, capital R, you know, proper

886
00:51:04,934 --> 00:51:05,435
noun.

887
00:51:05,435 --> 00:51:08,597
And it's a force that stops you from doing
it.

888
00:51:08,597 --> 00:51:09,297
I love that book.

889
00:51:09,297 --> 00:51:10,978
I've read it so many times.

890
00:51:10,978 --> 00:51:11,679
I listened to it.

891
00:51:11,679 --> 00:51:17,182
He's got a great audio book and it's got,
it's got almost like military music, like

892
00:51:18,444 --> 00:51:20,044
in the background sometimes.

893
00:51:20,065 --> 00:51:22,266
Just cause it, yeah.

894
00:51:22,266 --> 00:51:27,140
Cause his voice is, it's like a coach kind
of kicking your ass a little bit.

895
00:51:27,140 --> 00:51:29,004
Yeah, yeah, sometimes you need that.

896
00:51:29,004 --> 00:51:30,386
Yeah, absolutely.

897
00:51:31,350 --> 00:51:32,050
Yeah.

898
00:51:32,115 --> 00:51:33,055
do this.

899
00:51:33,716 --> 00:51:35,316
Yeah, it's a good one.

900
00:51:36,057 --> 00:51:37,197
Definitely one of my favorites.

901
00:51:37,197 --> 00:51:41,199
I think probably I've given that to a lot
of people as a gift.

902
00:51:41,199 --> 00:51:43,560
I was like, you gotta read this.

903
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,441
Just kind of change your life a little
bit.

904
00:51:46,556 --> 00:51:48,222
Yeah, any other books?

905
00:51:49,678 --> 00:51:56,954
Well, I just finished, and this is just
the most recent one on my mind, a book

906
00:51:56,954 --> 00:52:03,758
called – he wrote Essentialism, but this
one is called Effortless.

907
00:52:03,758 --> 00:52:06,398
Greg McEwen, I believe is the name.

908
00:52:06,398 --> 00:52:11,118
I'll put it in the show notes.

909
00:52:11,118 --> 00:52:17,572
And again, some of the things we're
talking about, he mentions some –

910
00:52:18,166 --> 00:52:23,268
this idea of effortless, that you want to
make the productive things in your life

911
00:52:23,268 --> 00:52:26,370
easier to do and the non-productive things
harder to do.

912
00:52:28,491 --> 00:52:32,914
You know, like kind of just, it's easier
to do this thing.

913
00:52:32,914 --> 00:52:37,997
But you know, one thing he talks about is
be willing to make garbage, be willing to

914
00:52:37,997 --> 00:52:39,898
fail, be willing to all that.

915
00:52:41,219 --> 00:52:46,701
But he was, what was it, saying, oh, this
idea like...

916
00:52:47,446 --> 00:52:54,029
You want to do enough where you're making
some progress, but you also need like an

917
00:52:54,029 --> 00:52:59,752
end time too, which is something I'm
really enjoying thinking about, like kind

918
00:52:59,752 --> 00:53:00,933
of leaving something on the table.

919
00:53:00,933 --> 00:53:05,555
Like I don't want to work too hard today
so that I can't do anything tomorrow.

920
00:53:06,456 --> 00:53:10,478
And I want to also sort of leave myself
hanging a little bit so I'm excited to

921
00:53:10,478 --> 00:53:12,999
start tomorrow.

922
00:53:12,999 --> 00:53:15,781
I think Ernest Hemingway used to do that.

923
00:53:15,781 --> 00:53:16,648
I think he used to...

924
00:53:16,648 --> 00:53:18,593
stop mid-sentence or something, right?

925
00:53:18,593 --> 00:53:20,157
Yeah, yeah.

926
00:53:20,157 --> 00:53:21,439
Is that working for you?

927
00:53:22,224 --> 00:53:26,427
I do think that helps because it's kind of
like, I don't have to think about where

928
00:53:26,427 --> 00:53:28,728
I'm going to pick up the next day.

929
00:53:29,388 --> 00:53:33,591
And that sometimes is a really big hurdle.

930
00:53:33,591 --> 00:53:38,353
I spend a lot of time like wandering
around, considering the things I could do

931
00:53:38,353 --> 00:53:39,254
next.

932
00:53:39,974 --> 00:53:44,197
Whether it's, it could be a lot of things,
it could be like household chores, or it

933
00:53:44,197 --> 00:53:45,017
could be...

934
00:53:45,878 --> 00:53:51,162
musically what I'm gonna do next, but to
just be sort of, all right, this is the

935
00:53:51,162 --> 00:53:57,286
next thing, without that question, without
that thought of like, should I do this

936
00:53:57,286 --> 00:53:58,026
now?

937
00:53:58,987 --> 00:54:01,109
I know I just, this is what's next.

938
00:54:01,109 --> 00:54:04,151
And then you're not questioning it,
because if I decide, yeah, I'm gonna do

939
00:54:04,151 --> 00:54:07,213
this, oh man, maybe I should have done the
other thing.

940
00:54:08,114 --> 00:54:11,157
You know, like that, so then you never
really get into the thing you're actually

941
00:54:11,157 --> 00:54:11,877
doing.

942
00:54:12,898 --> 00:54:14,381
Yeah, very interesting.

943
00:54:15,734 --> 00:54:17,694
Yeah, I enjoyed that one a lot,
effortless.

944
00:54:18,555 --> 00:54:21,696
It actually took me, I listened to it.

945
00:54:21,756 --> 00:54:26,938
So I don't know how many pages, but it was
probably about like an hour and a half

946
00:54:27,099 --> 00:54:27,599
into it.

947
00:54:27,599 --> 00:54:33,061
And I was almost ready to just be like, I
don't need this right now.

948
00:54:33,081 --> 00:54:35,202
Sometimes things just don't grab you.

949
00:54:35,202 --> 00:54:39,824
But once I got to that point, I was like,
oh wait, that was good.

950
00:54:39,824 --> 00:54:41,685
I'm gonna get something out of this.

951
00:54:43,173 --> 00:54:43,693
That's cool.

952
00:54:43,693 --> 00:54:43,874
Yeah.

953
00:54:43,874 --> 00:54:45,230
Glad you stuck through it.

954
00:54:45,230 --> 00:54:45,855
Hmm.

955
00:54:47,742 --> 00:54:54,283
Now let me ask you, like, taking on this
plug-in making job, that must have taken

956
00:54:54,283 --> 00:55:00,065
up a lot of your time, and I bet that was
a break from music, right?

957
00:55:00,665 --> 00:55:03,666
That must have taken away some of your
time.

958
00:55:05,647 --> 00:55:10,808
Did you find pursuing something else like
that, it's got a musical thing to it,

959
00:55:10,808 --> 00:55:15,269
obviously, but there's a lot of much
different skills.

960
00:55:15,664 --> 00:55:18,104
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

961
00:55:18,104 --> 00:55:19,769
affect your whole flow?

962
00:55:19,769 --> 00:55:21,715
Did it change the way you make music?

963
00:55:21,715 --> 00:55:25,845
Did it give you some of that fresh air and
time to breathe a little bit?

964
00:55:26,192 --> 00:55:27,772
Yeah, absolutely.

965
00:55:27,973 --> 00:55:36,440
I think I like somewhere last year,
somewhere in 2023 or 2024 right now, I'm

966
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,183
like, I'm to the point where I started
losing the years somewhere at the

967
00:55:40,183 --> 00:55:42,985
beginning of last year, I was like, I
really need to do something else and just

968
00:55:42,985 --> 00:55:49,431
make a music like I was kind of feeling a
little stale, like the music felt a little

969
00:55:49,431 --> 00:55:53,014
stale, what I was doing felt a little
stale and it felt like this kind of loop

970
00:55:53,014 --> 00:55:55,135
of, oh, next release, next release, like.

971
00:55:55,900 --> 00:55:57,841
you know, not as inspired anymore.

972
00:55:58,082 --> 00:56:04,508
So I, first I just kind of picked up the
audio program thing on the side and just,

973
00:56:04,508 --> 00:56:07,651
just exploring a little bit if there was
anything interesting there.

974
00:56:07,651 --> 00:56:12,637
And then I started catching some steam and
seeing that some of the things that I

975
00:56:12,637 --> 00:56:15,559
wanted to make were possible and how they
were possible.

976
00:56:16,420 --> 00:56:19,203
Um, and I am.

977
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:24,003
There has been a period in my life where I
could really combine it to things, where I

978
00:56:24,003 --> 00:56:28,746
was doing some programming and some making
music, because I was always already making

979
00:56:28,746 --> 00:56:33,670
scripts for Reaper and improving my
workflow in there and doing a little bit

980
00:56:33,670 --> 00:56:35,251
of both in that way.

981
00:56:36,052 --> 00:56:39,194
But then I was always much more focused
on, oh, I got this idea for my workflow

982
00:56:39,194 --> 00:56:40,574
that I want to improve.

983
00:56:41,700 --> 00:56:43,460
you know, let's make that and then use it.

984
00:56:43,460 --> 00:56:45,982
And that kind of went back and forth.

985
00:56:45,982 --> 00:56:50,123
But with the plugin making, there was
definitely a big period where it was just

986
00:56:50,123 --> 00:56:55,746
like, okay, I'm actually, if I'm honest,
it's like now 80% making plugins and 20%

987
00:56:55,746 --> 00:56:56,406
making music.

988
00:56:56,406 --> 00:57:03,470
Um, and I'm now even worse, like the last
couple of months, uh, it's more like a

989
00:57:03,470 --> 00:57:09,072
hundred percent plugins, which is also
slightly due because I just five months

990
00:57:09,072 --> 00:57:11,053
ago now already had my second daughter.

991
00:57:11,894 --> 00:57:18,718
which is just, thank you, one of the best
things in life, but it puts the schedule

992
00:57:18,758 --> 00:57:19,599
under pressure cooker.

993
00:57:19,599 --> 00:57:26,083
So where I could normally combine
everything, I currently just have much

994
00:57:26,083 --> 00:57:29,385
less time and less energy as well because
of the sleep and stuff.

995
00:57:29,385 --> 00:57:31,186
And I don't know, do you have kids?

996
00:57:31,186 --> 00:57:36,049
I don't know, okay, well, just don't sleep
for a couple of nights and you'll know

997
00:57:36,049 --> 00:57:36,976
what I'm talking about.

998
00:57:36,976 --> 00:57:37,617
it.

999
00:57:39,101 --> 00:57:40,820
I understand it's a big commitment.

1000
00:57:40,820 --> 00:57:43,549
It is, yeah, if you want a big commitment,
do that.

1001
00:57:43,549 --> 00:57:47,703
So like I've been doing a lot of plugin
work, but I'm actually...

1002
00:57:48,072 --> 00:57:52,213
feeling like, especially when we start
talking about creativity again, I'm like

1003
00:57:52,213 --> 00:57:54,735
feeling this urge that I want to make
music again.

1004
00:57:54,735 --> 00:57:58,056
And I'm thinking about what I want that to
be.

1005
00:57:58,056 --> 00:58:02,358
And, and yeah, I'm really getting more, I
feel like I'm getting more and more

1006
00:58:02,358 --> 00:58:08,901
excited again to get a little bit back
into active, like really active music

1007
00:58:08,901 --> 00:58:14,244
making and pushing myself in the ways that
I used to do, you know, in the ways that I

1008
00:58:14,244 --> 00:58:16,765
know, uh, where you grow.

1009
00:58:18,106 --> 00:58:26,389
things as you become more professional in
music is that the growth is what makes

1010
00:58:26,389 --> 00:58:27,450
things fun.

1011
00:58:28,630 --> 00:58:30,471
That's how I see it at least.

1012
00:58:30,511 --> 00:58:34,733
When you're a beginner and that's in
plugins and sports and whatever you do,

1013
00:58:34,733 --> 00:58:39,615
the growth is really fun and the further
you get along your...

1014
00:58:40,660 --> 00:58:45,362
career, between quotation marks, the
harder it becomes to grow.

1015
00:58:45,362 --> 00:58:48,303
And that doesn't mean that I'm so good
that I can't grow anymore.

1016
00:58:48,303 --> 00:58:52,245
It might just mean that I've done it for
such a long time that I don't have that

1017
00:58:52,245 --> 00:58:58,028
fresh perspective anymore where, you know,
anything that I used to read like manuals

1018
00:58:58,028 --> 00:59:03,551
of synthesizers and like freaking like
watch and read anything I could get my

1019
00:59:03,551 --> 00:59:04,471
hands on.

1020
00:59:04,732 --> 00:59:08,395
But at a certain point you become a
professional and it's like less of that

1021
00:59:08,395 --> 00:59:11,136
and it's more of just making the thing,
which is also great.

1022
00:59:11,677 --> 00:59:16,661
Um, but like actually having some
perspective from this whole plugin thing,

1023
00:59:16,661 --> 00:59:20,364
I'm getting more and more excited to, to
apply some of the things I've learned

1024
00:59:20,364 --> 00:59:23,867
there to like making music again.

1025
00:59:23,867 --> 00:59:24,299
Yeah.

1026
00:59:24,299 --> 00:59:26,140
So it kind of builds a little bit.

1027
00:59:26,140 --> 00:59:30,443
So rather than every day you're letting
out some of that creative steam, now it's

1028
00:59:30,443 --> 00:59:33,364
kind of building up a little bit.

1029
00:59:33,364 --> 00:59:40,468
And when you get a chance to do it, you
have some desire and direction.

1030
00:59:40,468 --> 00:59:46,671
man, but it might, like I already know,
like when I'm, I did a session last week,

1031
00:59:47,292 --> 00:59:50,574
I thought I was going to be way rustier
than I actually was, but I know I'm going

1032
00:59:50,574 --> 00:59:51,395
to be a little rusty.

1033
00:59:51,395 --> 00:59:55,397
Like I know I'm going to be like, you
know, a basketball player getting back on

1034
00:59:55,397 --> 00:59:58,339
the field after like a long vacation.

1035
00:59:58,339 --> 00:59:58,579
Yeah.

1036
00:59:58,579 --> 01:00:03,522
The first couple of days, I don't know,
weeks of doing that, everything's going to

1037
01:00:03,522 --> 01:00:05,523
kind of like feel floppy.

1038
01:00:05,936 --> 01:00:08,239
You're not going to jump as easy as you
thought you'd do.

1039
01:00:08,239 --> 01:00:10,502
You're not going to be as fast as you
thought you were.

1040
01:00:10,502 --> 01:00:12,705
You know, like it's going to be very
frustrating.

1041
01:00:13,627 --> 01:00:18,533
So that's going to be a whole challenge in
itself, but I'm pretty excited to like,

1042
01:00:18,554 --> 01:00:19,875
get that going again.

1043
01:00:20,202 --> 01:00:21,002
Yeah.

1044
01:00:21,344 --> 01:00:24,771
Well, it's, I guess that's the way it is
when we learn.

1045
01:00:24,771 --> 01:00:29,740
Like when you first learn something,
you're growing so fast, right?

1046
01:00:29,740 --> 01:00:30,641
Like it's...

1047
01:00:30,938 --> 01:00:34,478
every new thing you learn doubles your
knowledge of what you already had.

1048
01:00:34,919 --> 01:00:38,600
And then reading the manuals for
synthesizers, and you're taking in all

1049
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:39,660
this knowledge.

1050
01:00:39,700 --> 01:00:43,121
But that has to kind of slow down at some
point.

1051
01:00:43,501 --> 01:00:48,522
And I think that is a point where a lot of
people kind of lose interest when they

1052
01:00:48,522 --> 01:00:49,323
stop learning.

1053
01:00:49,323 --> 01:00:53,184
Because you could read the manual for
another synthesizer, but do you really

1054
01:00:53,184 --> 01:00:55,864
need to know about oscillators again?

1055
01:00:55,864 --> 01:00:58,605
Like, you kind of got that thing under
control.

1056
01:00:59,485 --> 01:01:00,125
So...

1057
01:01:00,714 --> 01:01:05,158
It can feel like you're stagnating, I
guess, and that nothing's really changing,

1058
01:01:05,158 --> 01:01:07,039
there's not a lot of growth happening.

1059
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:08,741
And that can be frustrating.

1060
01:01:10,036 --> 01:01:10,776
No, exactly.

1061
01:01:10,776 --> 01:01:14,017
And I don't know if this is for everybody,
but at least for me, that feeling of

1062
01:01:14,017 --> 01:01:19,479
growth and achieving things, whether it's
your personal goals or goals in the out in

1063
01:01:19,479 --> 01:01:22,740
the world, that is what makes things fun,
you know?

1064
01:01:24,140 --> 01:01:26,261
Yeah.

1065
01:01:28,061 --> 01:01:29,942
How much like how do you do that?

1066
01:01:29,942 --> 01:01:33,223
Like how much time do you spend making
music?

1067
01:01:33,223 --> 01:01:35,043
Like, do you have a schedule for that?

1068
01:01:35,043 --> 01:01:36,632
Like, is it?

1069
01:01:36,632 --> 01:01:40,418
every hour you can do is in the studio
like how does that work for you?

1070
01:01:40,806 --> 01:01:43,487
Yeah, well, here's the funny thing, right?

1071
01:01:43,487 --> 01:01:49,191
Like when I'm working, when I've schooled,
I'm teaching, I'm probably more

1072
01:01:49,191 --> 01:01:53,393
productive, which is funny because I have
less time.

1073
01:01:53,393 --> 01:01:57,315
But when I go on to break, I'm on a break
for this week, and I'll say summer

1074
01:01:57,315 --> 01:02:03,059
vacation, it just seems like I have so
much time and it's not as precious, right?

1075
01:02:03,059 --> 01:02:07,481
So I don't have to hustle to do things and
a lot of it gets wasted.

1076
01:02:08,254 --> 01:02:11,377
I mean, I thought I was gonna have like
four albums done by this point of the

1077
01:02:11,377 --> 01:02:13,338
week.

1078
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:16,442
And here I am, I've got like barely
anything done.

1079
01:02:16,562 --> 01:02:26,433
But it's funny how that helps motivate
you, move you when you run out of that.

1080
01:02:26,433 --> 01:02:31,037
So it's not so much that I have a
schedule, but I know like when...

1081
01:02:31,346 --> 01:02:34,529
I get out from work, I got some time to
work on stuff.

1082
01:02:34,529 --> 01:02:38,994
So it might be producing this podcast, it
might be working on some music, it might

1083
01:02:38,994 --> 01:02:42,519
be building some sounds or something,
whatever it might be.

1084
01:02:42,519 --> 01:02:44,901
But I always try to make sure it's
something.

1085
01:02:46,543 --> 01:02:50,147
I got kind of like, with a podcast, it
sort of has its deadline.

1086
01:02:50,147 --> 01:02:52,229
I try to get one out every week.

1087
01:02:53,210 --> 01:02:56,676
I would like to be a little more
disciplined with a lot of the other things

1088
01:02:56,676 --> 01:02:57,257
too.

1089
01:02:57,257 --> 01:03:01,885
I don't know why the podcast is easy for
me to meet that goal.

1090
01:03:03,008 --> 01:03:04,410
For whatever reason.

1091
01:03:04,571 --> 01:03:06,113
Just the regularity.

1092
01:03:06,983 --> 01:03:11,927
I mean, is it maybe like when, back to the
gym analogies, like when the gym is really

1093
01:03:11,927 --> 01:03:16,731
close to house, then you always leave
quite late and then you don't go, whether

1094
01:03:17,212 --> 01:03:20,855
when it's like an hour or like, no,
nobody's gyms an hour away, but like a 15

1095
01:03:20,855 --> 01:03:21,615
minute.

1096
01:03:21,912 --> 01:03:22,252
Right?

1097
01:03:22,252 --> 01:03:25,012
You know, like then you actually have to
plan it in and you have to do it.

1098
01:03:25,012 --> 01:03:28,753
So like maybe your podcast involves
setting up these meetings, you know, you

1099
01:03:28,753 --> 01:03:30,954
can't call your guests the day before.

1100
01:03:30,954 --> 01:03:35,195
So you have to schedule it in advance and
you know, you, you know, you have to set

1101
01:03:35,195 --> 01:03:36,636
certain things in plan.

1102
01:03:36,656 --> 01:03:40,977
Um, I know this, I'm saying this because
this is what happens to me all the time.

1103
01:03:40,977 --> 01:03:45,578
You know, like it's the things that, you
know, have the flexibility that you

1104
01:03:45,578 --> 01:03:48,939
actually then give the least attention,
but they might be the most important

1105
01:03:48,939 --> 01:03:49,679
thing.

1106
01:03:50,706 --> 01:03:53,628
Yeah, that's a great point because there's
other people involved, right?

1107
01:03:53,688 --> 01:03:58,731
Like we made this plan to be here at this
time.

1108
01:03:59,052 --> 01:04:04,596
I can't be like, well, you know, I'm going
to just kind of like lay around a little

1109
01:04:04,596 --> 01:04:05,856
longer today.

1110
01:04:07,818 --> 01:04:12,761
And then the release of it too is like,
you know, people sat down and talked with

1111
01:04:12,761 --> 01:04:13,441
me.

1112
01:04:13,462 --> 01:04:15,943
I have to make it happen.

1113
01:04:16,144 --> 01:04:18,845
You know, if it's six months before this
thing comes out, you're going to be

1114
01:04:18,845 --> 01:04:19,394
like...

1115
01:04:19,394 --> 01:04:21,835
like, Brian, what the hell?

1116
01:04:21,956 --> 01:04:24,257
You know, what happened?

1117
01:04:25,339 --> 01:04:32,284
So yeah, that would be probably a really
smart thing to just build into life where

1118
01:04:32,284 --> 01:04:35,067
there's, hire somebody to just like yell
at me.

1119
01:04:35,067 --> 01:04:35,647
Yeah.

1120
01:04:38,074 --> 01:04:41,358
Yeah, and if you find that person, give
them my details.

1121
01:04:41,358 --> 01:04:42,959
They can yell at me too.

1122
01:04:44,942 --> 01:04:46,222
Yeah, exactly.

1123
01:04:49,089 --> 01:04:54,692
This idea though, it doesn't have to be
like making a plugin or something, but

1124
01:04:54,692 --> 01:05:01,155
finding some other pursuit that you take
up that will eat up some of your time so

1125
01:05:01,155 --> 01:05:06,517
that maybe, you know, if, and this
probably only works if you are

1126
01:05:06,794 --> 01:05:11,358
really in the routine of making music
constantly, and you need something that's

1127
01:05:11,358 --> 01:05:15,321
sort of give you some space to feel fresh
about it again.

1128
01:05:15,321 --> 01:05:20,426
I guess some sort of, could be some other
art form or like you're doing, like making

1129
01:05:20,426 --> 01:05:21,787
a plugin or something.

1130
01:05:22,108 --> 01:05:27,633
Could be a really healthy way to stay
productive and then feel rejuvenated when

1131
01:05:27,633 --> 01:05:28,573
you return.

1132
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:30,101
Yeah, absolutely.

1133
01:05:30,101 --> 01:05:30,821
Yeah.

1134
01:05:31,022 --> 01:05:35,507
And I think that is a healthy balance.

1135
01:05:35,507 --> 01:05:42,293
Like I've often in my life had two things
going on at the same time and like kind of

1136
01:05:42,614 --> 01:05:46,118
stepping off one stone to step on to the
next one.

1137
01:05:46,118 --> 01:05:46,718
And

1138
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:51,302
And it can mean stepping back and forth as
well.

1139
01:05:51,302 --> 01:05:58,008
And I think that's, for me at least, it's
a healthy thing to have multiple things.

1140
01:05:58,008 --> 01:05:59,029
Because it can also be nice.

1141
01:05:59,029 --> 01:06:03,352
You know, like when the music thing is
super annoying and then I think, oh, I'm

1142
01:06:03,352 --> 01:06:04,453
going to do something on a plugin.

1143
01:06:04,453 --> 01:06:05,975
And that can be really rewarding.

1144
01:06:05,975 --> 01:06:08,297
And this got a little bit out of hand.

1145
01:06:08,297 --> 01:06:11,339
But I mean, why not?

1146
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:16,263
If it's possible, I think it can be a very
healthy thing.

1147
01:06:16,666 --> 01:06:17,247
Hmm.

1148
01:06:17,564 --> 01:06:24,809
A lot of people, I think, you know, a lot
of people, sometimes I talk to people

1149
01:06:24,809 --> 01:06:26,491
about music and what I do.

1150
01:06:26,491 --> 01:06:33,196
And I know I'm super privileged to have
been able to make music my job and my main

1151
01:06:33,196 --> 01:06:33,956
thing.

1152
01:06:34,617 --> 01:06:38,160
And I see sometimes, especially in
beginners, like that envy of like, oh, I

1153
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,982
wish I could do music as my full time
thing.

1154
01:06:41,162 --> 01:06:42,463
But I think...

1155
01:06:43,344 --> 01:06:49,826
You know, you sometimes it's easy to
forget how nice it can be to bounce back

1156
01:06:49,826 --> 01:06:54,448
and forth, you know, and lean on that wall
that's your other thing to be free in that

1157
01:06:54,448 --> 01:06:55,909
thing that's your music.

1158
01:06:56,269 --> 01:07:01,471
And because once it becomes a professional
thing, there's a whole other pressures

1159
01:07:01,471 --> 01:07:03,132
that you're going to have to deal with.

1160
01:07:03,472 --> 01:07:10,455
So there's a lot of value in doing that
back and forth between pursuits, maybe.

1161
01:07:10,878 --> 01:07:18,043
Yeah, I hear that a lot about, I've talked
to people that say like, you know, I don't

1162
01:07:18,043 --> 01:07:21,625
pick up my guitar and just strum it
anymore.

1163
01:07:22,305 --> 01:07:28,870
You know, like, and, you know, I know
people that come home from work and just

1164
01:07:29,030 --> 01:07:30,371
play their guitar.

1165
01:07:31,032 --> 01:07:31,912
No point.

1166
01:07:31,912 --> 01:07:33,913
It just goes out into the ether.

1167
01:07:34,014 --> 01:07:35,314
It's relaxing.

1168
01:07:35,314 --> 01:07:39,057
It's just pure nothing.

1169
01:07:39,297 --> 01:07:39,854
And

1170
01:07:39,854 --> 01:07:44,876
For me, a lot of times it's a means to an
end.

1171
01:07:45,396 --> 01:07:48,097
I'm trying to make a song, I'm trying to
finish something, I'm trying to produce

1172
01:07:48,097 --> 01:07:48,937
something.

1173
01:07:49,278 --> 01:07:57,382
And that can be sometimes what you lose
when you get into things professionally

1174
01:07:57,382 --> 01:07:59,783
and you make it a job or a business.

1175
01:08:00,323 --> 01:08:06,165
And I think it's important to remember to
keep that as part of it.

1176
01:08:06,576 --> 01:08:09,440
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

1177
01:08:10,002 --> 01:08:10,502
And it's hard.

1178
01:08:10,502 --> 01:08:14,550
Again, this is one of those things that,
at least for me, that's an ongoing

1179
01:08:14,550 --> 01:08:18,390
challenge of finding ways to deal with
that, you know?

1180
01:08:18,390 --> 01:08:20,390
Hmm.

1181
01:08:20,390 --> 01:08:24,392
Well, let me ask you, like, are you going
to be doing any touring anytime soon?

1182
01:08:24,392 --> 01:08:30,014
Because I know you've done, like, you do
the festival circuit, lots of big stages.

1183
01:08:30,234 --> 01:08:34,995
I'm sure that's, I mean, I'm obviously
thrilling, right?

1184
01:08:34,995 --> 01:08:40,457
But does that ever also suffer from the
same problem of, here we go again, kind

1185
01:08:40,457 --> 01:08:41,037
of?

1186
01:08:41,740 --> 01:08:46,764
Well, I definitely know that in the
periods in time where I was touring a lot,

1187
01:08:46,764 --> 01:08:52,247
there were also moments where you're like,
oh man, you know, it's hard to imagine,

1188
01:08:52,247 --> 01:08:55,730
but when you are like, oh, I don't want to
go, you know, I don't necessarily want to

1189
01:08:55,730 --> 01:08:57,150
go away again.

1190
01:08:57,151 --> 01:09:01,934
Like being, don't get me wrong, being on
stage, best thing there is, it's so

1191
01:09:01,934 --> 01:09:03,375
amazing, so cool.

1192
01:09:04,476 --> 01:09:09,379
But like the going and the traveling, that
can be super taxing.

1193
01:09:12,356 --> 01:09:14,797
I do, I want to perform, I love
performing.

1194
01:09:14,797 --> 01:09:16,377
I love being on stage.

1195
01:09:17,878 --> 01:09:19,999
So it'll happen.

1196
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:25,601
It's not my main priority right now, but
it'll happen and like I'll be super happy

1197
01:09:25,601 --> 01:09:28,983
again to interact with fans and to be
DJing.

1198
01:09:28,983 --> 01:09:33,504
And yeah, it's just a whole nother level
of excitement.

1199
01:09:35,425 --> 01:09:39,787
But I just have so many things I want to
do, like these plugins and like Sub Ninja

1200
01:09:39,787 --> 01:09:41,087
was only actually

1201
01:09:41,392 --> 01:09:44,894
the very first thing that I wanted to
release, I'm actually working on a much

1202
01:09:44,894 --> 01:09:45,855
bigger thing as well.

1203
01:09:45,855 --> 01:09:49,318
And I wanna finish that and I wanna make
awesome music.

1204
01:09:49,318 --> 01:09:53,601
And then I got so many things I wanna do
at the same time.

1205
01:09:55,002 --> 01:09:58,965
So I'm sure touring will be a part of my
life again.

1206
01:09:59,806 --> 01:10:01,547
But yeah, we'll see, we'll see.

1207
01:10:01,994 --> 01:10:05,357
Yeah, I'm sure, especially new family
member now.

1208
01:10:05,437 --> 01:10:10,623
So, you don't, every day is a new
advancement at that age, right?

1209
01:10:10,623 --> 01:10:15,268
Kind of like when we talk about learning
music, like learning life every day is a

1210
01:10:15,268 --> 01:10:16,589
giant step.

1211
01:10:16,830 --> 01:10:18,311
Absolutely, yeah.

1212
01:10:19,998 --> 01:10:25,601
Yeah, so I've played in bands and we've
organized our own tours, you know, very

1213
01:10:25,642 --> 01:10:29,144
DIY punk rock, reaching out to other
bands.

1214
01:10:29,425 --> 01:10:31,306
Can you guys on a show in Pittsburgh?

1215
01:10:31,306 --> 01:10:32,787
And like, yeah, okay, cool.

1216
01:10:32,787 --> 01:10:36,470
We'll set you up here on New York, you
know, kind of trading stuff.

1217
01:10:36,470 --> 01:10:42,955
But we've organized some tours and I mean,
it's like you said, like playing is that

1218
01:10:42,955 --> 01:10:45,196
energy is hard to find anywhere else.

1219
01:10:45,196 --> 01:10:47,037
You know, that exchange when it's

1220
01:10:47,446 --> 01:10:53,076
people are into it, you're into it, it's
magic and it's greater than the sum of its

1221
01:10:53,076 --> 01:10:53,957
parts.

1222
01:10:54,385 --> 01:10:55,050
Yeah.

1223
01:10:55,606 --> 01:10:57,746
But all the stuff in between is very
taxing.

1224
01:10:57,746 --> 01:11:04,608
The travel, the bad food, the bad places
to sleep, the floors we've slept on, the

1225
01:11:04,608 --> 01:11:06,449
cars we've slept in.

1226
01:11:07,429 --> 01:11:12,611
I mean, it's an adventure, and it's a lot
of fun in that way, but I kinda came away

1227
01:11:12,611 --> 01:11:15,972
from that realizing like, ugh, I don't
know.

1228
01:11:16,132 --> 01:11:18,773
I don't know if this is what I wanna do.

1229
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:21,240
And that's a band, man.

1230
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:26,923
Like I've often thought while I was
packing my Roli case with my USB stick and

1231
01:11:26,923 --> 01:11:32,005
headphones, oh my God, thank God I don't
have to bring my guitars and my, all my

1232
01:11:32,005 --> 01:11:33,426
other crap, you know?

1233
01:11:33,426 --> 01:11:35,806
Like DJs have it easy in that regard.

1234
01:11:36,207 --> 01:11:37,347
Um, but yeah, man.

1235
01:11:37,347 --> 01:11:38,128
Yeah, it's real.

1236
01:11:38,128 --> 01:11:38,568
It's real.

1237
01:11:38,568 --> 01:11:42,250
It's, it's a crazy lifestyle.

1238
01:11:42,250 --> 01:11:45,551
It's, it's one of the coolest things you
can do.

1239
01:11:45,771 --> 01:11:46,451
Um.

1240
01:11:47,368 --> 01:11:48,779
But yeah, it's also wild.

1241
01:11:48,779 --> 01:11:50,147
It's very wild.

1242
01:11:51,130 --> 01:11:51,531
Yeah.

1243
01:11:51,531 --> 01:11:52,891
I, I loved it.

1244
01:11:52,912 --> 01:11:53,612
I really did.

1245
01:11:53,612 --> 01:11:54,893
I loved it.

1246
01:11:54,893 --> 01:11:58,576
It was so much fun, but I also kind of
realized it's sort of against my nature

1247
01:11:58,576 --> 01:11:59,196
too.

1248
01:11:59,196 --> 01:12:05,200
I'm like, I've been off for three or four
days now and like, I took my dog to the

1249
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:06,621
vet one day.

1250
01:12:09,203 --> 01:12:14,107
I'd dropped off something at the post
office, you know, I think I went to the

1251
01:12:14,107 --> 01:12:14,787
grocery store.

1252
01:12:14,787 --> 01:12:17,118
I think that's all I've done, you know?

1253
01:12:17,118 --> 01:12:17,819
yeah

1254
01:12:18,134 --> 01:12:23,690
That's just my natural state is a kind of
a homebody person.

1255
01:12:23,690 --> 01:12:24,370
So.

1256
01:12:24,856 --> 01:12:29,461
I think a lot of producers actually are,
like a lot of big DJs I've met around the

1257
01:12:29,461 --> 01:12:32,846
world, they're also just like, yeah man,
we just like sitting in our studio and

1258
01:12:32,846 --> 01:12:37,230
like, that's what brings you there, you
know, funny enough.

1259
01:12:37,551 --> 01:12:39,394
Yeah.

1260
01:12:39,394 --> 01:12:40,921
Yeah, it is, yeah.

1261
01:12:40,921 --> 01:12:45,484
especially when you think of the way music
has always been very communal.

1262
01:12:45,484 --> 01:12:50,889
Like if you wanted to hear music, some
sort of ensemble, like people had to play

1263
01:12:50,889 --> 01:12:52,750
it together in the moment.

1264
01:12:53,891 --> 01:12:59,495
But only until even pretty recently in
recording technology could we just do it

1265
01:12:59,495 --> 01:13:02,377
by ourselves.

1266
01:13:02,377 --> 01:13:02,578
And

1267
01:13:02,578 --> 01:13:03,258
crazy, right?

1268
01:13:03,258 --> 01:13:08,425
Yeah, I think in a way that also kind of
is what I love so much about producing and

1269
01:13:08,425 --> 01:13:12,309
especially in terms of what's possible
now, you know, like you can just create

1270
01:13:12,309 --> 01:13:16,354
this whole thing inside of a freaking
computer, like you really don't need much

1271
01:13:16,354 --> 01:13:17,094
else.

1272
01:13:17,756 --> 01:13:20,699
So, yeah, that's so amazing.

1273
01:13:21,074 --> 01:13:25,337
Yeah, it's such a great time to be a
musician.

1274
01:13:26,339 --> 01:13:28,401
But yeah, it can be kind of solitary.

1275
01:13:28,401 --> 01:13:31,795
Uh-oh, are you afraid of that?

1276
01:13:31,795 --> 01:13:33,275
don't know.

1277
01:13:33,275 --> 01:13:34,196
We'll see.

1278
01:13:34,816 --> 01:13:37,157
I don't know.

1279
01:13:37,157 --> 01:13:38,998
It's going to have influences.

1280
01:13:39,618 --> 01:13:40,918
It's hard to tell.

1281
01:13:41,379 --> 01:13:44,700
Yeah, it's hard to tell what the
influences will be.

1282
01:13:47,001 --> 01:13:52,283
I mean, I think every generation is...

1283
01:13:53,892 --> 01:13:57,693
Or I can imagine every generation has
certain fears around how the next

1284
01:13:57,693 --> 01:14:04,236
generation is going to like replace what
they always did, um, in an easier and

1285
01:14:04,236 --> 01:14:05,456
faster way.

1286
01:14:05,777 --> 01:14:10,099
And then, yeah, you know, I'm sure there's
there, yeah, there's tons of people that

1287
01:14:10,099 --> 01:14:15,261
will be saying like, Oh, you know, I used
to do this by hand and it was so special

1288
01:14:15,261 --> 01:14:16,041
and it was so great.

1289
01:14:16,041 --> 01:14:20,403
And now it's done by machine and yeah,
it's kind of the same, but not really.

1290
01:14:20,443 --> 01:14:21,423
So like.

1291
01:14:22,224 --> 01:14:26,847
Yeah, a lot of music that future people
will be listening to will just be like,

1292
01:14:26,847 --> 01:14:29,949
Oh, give me music that sounds like this
and that, and that combined.

1293
01:14:29,949 --> 01:14:33,591
And AI will roll that out for hours for
you to enjoy.

1294
01:14:33,911 --> 01:14:37,554
And I'll be saying like, yeah, but it has
no soul and it's yeah.

1295
01:14:37,554 --> 01:14:37,814
Yeah.

1296
01:14:37,814 --> 01:14:42,497
But like, that's just kind of how things
go, you know, like, we'll see.

1297
01:14:42,497 --> 01:14:45,559
I don't, uh, I don't know.

1298
01:14:45,559 --> 01:14:46,919
What's your take on it?

1299
01:14:47,275 --> 01:14:53,099
I don't know either exactly, but yeah,
like you said, I mean, even if you take

1300
01:14:53,099 --> 01:14:59,443
like, say I'm recording a guitar and I
punch it in and I overdub something,

1301
01:14:59,483 --> 01:15:04,346
someone else from might say like, ah, but
there's nothing like a straight

1302
01:15:04,346 --> 01:15:07,949
performance straight through, you know,
somebody played that the whole, and I can

1303
01:15:07,949 --> 01:15:09,129
see that, but.

1304
01:15:09,554 --> 01:15:14,216
If that's what I had to do every time, I'd
never finish anything.

1305
01:15:14,216 --> 01:15:16,717
It would take a lot longer.

1306
01:15:19,298 --> 01:15:21,659
AI, I think, will certainly...

1307
01:15:23,220 --> 01:15:28,342
I'm excited for how it cleans up the more
mundane things that we do, things that we

1308
01:15:28,342 --> 01:15:29,683
don't enjoy doing.

1309
01:15:31,564 --> 01:15:33,505
Even some of the mixing tools...

1310
01:15:35,590 --> 01:15:40,072
I like mixing, it's an art form and you
can be very creative with it.

1311
01:15:41,112 --> 01:15:47,795
But some of the technical stuff, I just
want to have my song.

1312
01:15:50,377 --> 01:15:52,718
So sometimes that becomes a little bit of
a drag.

1313
01:15:52,718 --> 01:15:56,480
So if they can help me with that stuff,
that's nice.

1314
01:15:57,461 --> 01:15:59,301
But I do think...

1315
01:16:01,414 --> 01:16:05,338
I'm kind of surprised it hasn't happened
already, that people would be returning a

1316
01:16:05,338 --> 01:16:10,662
little more towards like, you know,
everything's been so digital and perfect

1317
01:16:10,662 --> 01:16:16,467
and maybe like people will start getting
into something more natural and human.

1318
01:16:16,467 --> 01:16:23,153
And maybe a little bit of like the lo-fi
movement has some of that going on where

1319
01:16:23,354 --> 01:16:25,555
people have embraced that a little.

1320
01:16:26,216 --> 01:16:27,717
But I don't think.

1321
01:16:28,998 --> 01:16:36,201
any kind of AI will ever replace that sort
of thing where an artist touches you and

1322
01:16:36,322 --> 01:16:40,904
changes how you think and you know you
wear different clothes now because you're

1323
01:16:40,904 --> 01:16:46,267
like kind of like looking up to them and
they influence like parts of the way you

1324
01:16:46,267 --> 01:16:47,628
look at the world.

1325
01:16:48,929 --> 01:16:53,091
And now I don't know if that happens as
much as it used to either you know like

1326
01:16:53,091 --> 01:16:56,913
when I was younger in high school and
that.

1327
01:16:56,970 --> 01:16:59,712
you know, the people you listened to was
your identity.

1328
01:16:59,712 --> 01:17:04,335
Like you were waving a flag of like, this
is who I am kind of.

1329
01:17:04,376 --> 01:17:09,180
I don't know if that happens quite as much
anymore, at least from what I can observe.

1330
01:17:10,221 --> 01:17:15,806
But I do think there'll, you know, take
like Taylor Swift right now.

1331
01:17:15,806 --> 01:17:20,049
Like she's probably the most famous person
in the world at the moment.

1332
01:17:20,434 --> 01:17:22,916
And so much about her, she's a musician,
right?

1333
01:17:22,916 --> 01:17:28,061
But it's about her, her life, her
experiences, what she's doing.

1334
01:17:28,361 --> 01:17:30,683
And we'll never get that from AI.

1335
01:17:31,785 --> 01:17:36,489
You know, a lot of people, I think like a
lot of our fans look up to her.

1336
01:17:36,802 --> 01:17:38,923
for who she is as a person.

1337
01:17:39,203 --> 01:17:42,245
Some of the things she's done, like
re-recording all her songs so that she

1338
01:17:42,245 --> 01:17:43,026
could have the rights.

1339
01:17:43,026 --> 01:17:45,748
Like that's like power move right there.

1340
01:17:45,748 --> 01:17:47,589
Like can AI do that?

1341
01:17:47,589 --> 01:17:50,291
You know, like can AI inspire us that way?

1342
01:17:50,291 --> 01:17:52,833
I don't know if that can ever, who knows?

1343
01:17:52,833 --> 01:17:59,257
Maybe it can, but you know, I think that's
stuff that maybe we need to lean into

1344
01:17:59,257 --> 01:17:59,882
more.

1345
01:17:59,882 --> 01:18:04,423
You know, like take like your plugin, for
instance, like the fact that it's like you

1346
01:18:04,423 --> 01:18:05,764
made it, right?

1347
01:18:05,844 --> 01:18:09,866
It's like, that's something that's really
interesting to me about it when I first

1348
01:18:09,866 --> 01:18:15,068
came across it was like, oh, like he
needed this, he wanted this, and this is

1349
01:18:15,068 --> 01:18:18,409
what he saw as a whole, and he's making
this kind of music.

1350
01:18:18,409 --> 01:18:25,672
And it had like this story behind it,
whereas if it was like, say like an AI

1351
01:18:25,672 --> 01:18:29,353
thing that figured it out for you or
whatever.

1352
01:18:31,466 --> 01:18:33,927
It doesn't have that same impact.

1353
01:18:35,748 --> 01:18:43,491
I think it's really cool, actually, the
way you've marketed the plugin from you.

1354
01:18:43,491 --> 01:18:46,733
There's a lot of stuff that you don't know
who the creators are.

1355
01:18:46,833 --> 01:18:49,014
Maybe it's a company, but that's all you
get.

1356
01:18:49,014 --> 01:18:51,835
You don't get the kind of backstory.

1357
01:18:51,835 --> 01:18:57,497
I think that's a cool thing about what you
have, that you need the human for that.

1358
01:18:59,884 --> 01:19:00,424
Yeah, thank you.

1359
01:19:00,424 --> 01:19:01,485
I appreciate that.

1360
01:19:01,485 --> 01:19:05,246
I think I relate to what you're saying.

1361
01:19:05,246 --> 01:19:12,528
When you're a fan of a certain artist, it
can be like they can sing Twinkle Little

1362
01:19:12,528 --> 01:19:17,129
Star and you're still interested in
hearing that in their voice in a way.

1363
01:19:17,129 --> 01:19:21,910
If you're a fan of Taylor Swift and she
sang the most mundane song, you'd still be

1364
01:19:21,910 --> 01:19:24,611
curious how she's going to say it.

1365
01:19:24,891 --> 01:19:26,271
So I do get that.

1366
01:19:27,308 --> 01:19:32,830
I don't know, it's too hard to speculate
about when we'll lose that to computers

1367
01:19:32,830 --> 01:19:35,431
though.

1368
01:19:35,431 --> 01:19:39,032
It's a big subject, yeah.

1369
01:19:39,113 --> 01:19:41,774
I don't know, we'll see.

1370
01:19:41,774 --> 01:19:45,595
I mean, I think as with anything, we'll
probably still have some time to enjoy

1371
01:19:45,595 --> 01:19:51,678
what we're doing right now and it'll be a
great tool for a while.

1372
01:19:51,678 --> 01:19:53,839
But yeah, after 10 years, I don't know.

1373
01:19:55,070 --> 01:20:02,997
Yeah, and it's probably wise to get on
board, you know, rather than fight it.

1374
01:20:02,997 --> 01:20:07,962
Like it doesn't seem like it's like a
tsunami, you know, like any recording

1375
01:20:07,962 --> 01:20:13,267
technology, like if you didn't embrace
multi-track recording or overdubbing or

1376
01:20:13,267 --> 01:20:15,288
like you just left in the dust.

1377
01:20:15,364 --> 01:20:16,805
Yeah.

1378
01:20:16,805 --> 01:20:22,731
I've been trying to convince like some of
my less tech savvy friends, like you need

1379
01:20:22,731 --> 01:20:28,476
to get like a subscription to like chat
GPT, like, I don't know if you're as

1380
01:20:28,476 --> 01:20:32,240
adamant about this as I am, but I'm just
telling them like, this is when we were in

1381
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:36,216
high school and we found out Google
existed, you know?

1382
01:20:36,216 --> 01:20:38,017
And then we were like, what the hell, this
is Google.

1383
01:20:38,017 --> 01:20:39,217
This is so great.

1384
01:20:39,277 --> 01:20:40,518
We need Google.

1385
01:20:40,598 --> 01:20:41,839
It does everything for us.

1386
01:20:41,839 --> 01:20:46,622
And currently, everything starts, anytime
you need something on the internet, it

1387
01:20:46,622 --> 01:20:47,842
starts with Google.

1388
01:20:47,842 --> 01:20:51,424
And that's going to be the chat GPTs of
the future.

1389
01:20:51,424 --> 01:20:56,247
And whenever somebody says to me that is
kind of my age, oh, why do I need it?

1390
01:20:56,247 --> 01:20:57,368
What do you use it for?

1391
01:20:58,048 --> 01:20:59,329
It's like Google.

1392
01:20:59,329 --> 01:21:03,971
It's like you telling your parents, mom,
look, this is what Google does.

1393
01:21:04,156 --> 01:21:08,421
That's to me what these tools are gonna do
and you guess you definitely need to use

1394
01:21:08,421 --> 01:21:13,868
them like and And if you if you're
wondering why you need them you yeah Maybe

1395
01:21:13,868 --> 01:21:17,491
you need to do more research on why they
could be useful to you, you know

1396
01:21:18,370 --> 01:21:18,550
Mm-hmm.

1397
01:21:18,550 --> 01:21:23,053
Yeah, like trying to explain to your
folks, like this is the entire

1398
01:21:23,053 --> 01:21:25,054
encyclopedia and more.

1399
01:21:26,715 --> 01:21:30,337
This is the Britannica, that whole set of
books.

1400
01:21:30,337 --> 01:21:32,458
This is the library right here.

1401
01:21:33,299 --> 01:21:34,919
It's really interesting.

1402
01:21:34,919 --> 01:21:37,021
There's a lot of great application.

1403
01:21:37,021 --> 01:21:41,983
I'll tell you what, even like for my job
as an English teacher, I have the same mug

1404
01:21:41,983 --> 01:21:43,324
as you.

1405
01:21:43,324 --> 01:21:44,284
Office.

1406
01:21:44,665 --> 01:21:45,153
Yeah.

1407
01:21:45,153 --> 01:21:46,410
Nice, nice.

1408
01:21:46,410 --> 01:21:49,493
I don't have it right now, but you
probably see it in other episodes.

1409
01:21:50,094 --> 01:21:51,034
That's funny.

1410
01:21:51,255 --> 01:21:52,736
The world's best boss.

1411
01:21:53,088 --> 01:21:54,048
Yes.

1412
01:21:54,949 --> 01:21:59,151
I once had somebody ask me like they would
just kind of thought like why do you have

1413
01:21:59,151 --> 01:22:03,333
that mug you know and I've wondered if
people don't get it like if they thought

1414
01:22:03,333 --> 01:22:08,014
like why do I have that mug it's kind of
weird but I'm glad you get it.

1415
01:22:08,014 --> 01:22:08,794
Yeah.

1416
01:22:08,894 --> 01:22:11,996
And then you say he bought it at Spencer's
for himself too.

1417
01:22:13,798 --> 01:22:14,938
That's so funny.

1418
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:23,084
I was saying as an English teacher, I've
used it and my students have certainly

1419
01:22:23,084 --> 01:22:24,905
used it to write their papers.

1420
01:22:25,206 --> 01:22:30,410
And so I've used it to create like
worksheets, like say we're doing some kind

1421
01:22:30,410 --> 01:22:35,393
of grammatical thing or some kind of
vocabulary thing or whatever it is.

1422
01:22:36,122 --> 01:22:38,823
I can ask it to make the questions for me.

1423
01:22:38,823 --> 01:22:45,787
I can ask it to write a story about a dog
that meets a dragon and leave a blank

1424
01:22:45,787 --> 01:22:47,208
space for all the verbs.

1425
01:22:47,208 --> 01:22:50,509
So like they have to film, like whatever,
you know?

1426
01:22:50,570 --> 01:22:57,553
And to get it to do that frees up so much
more of my time to actually focus on like

1427
01:22:57,553 --> 01:23:02,916
the stuff I as a human can do with them
compared to me sitting there and like

1428
01:23:02,916 --> 01:23:04,910
writing questions out and...

1429
01:23:04,910 --> 01:23:10,316
type, which is, that's not my specialty.

1430
01:23:10,316 --> 01:23:13,199
That's not what I'm here for.

1431
01:23:13,260 --> 01:23:16,644
I'm not just giving out handouts to my
classes.

1432
01:23:16,865 --> 01:23:20,549
So getting help with that sort of stuff is
really huge.

1433
01:23:23,154 --> 01:23:30,720
I get papers written by ChatGPT, I read
them and at first I'm like, wow, I'm

1434
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:32,741
really getting through to these guys.

1435
01:23:33,883 --> 01:23:36,705
Johnny's become such a better writer.

1436
01:23:37,406 --> 01:23:38,867
I must really be doing a good job.

1437
01:23:38,867 --> 01:23:41,008
Then you're like, wait, I'm not that good.

1438
01:23:43,671 --> 01:23:46,493
But there's that, of course.

1439
01:23:46,536 --> 01:23:48,698
So how do you guys deal with that?

1440
01:23:49,546 --> 01:23:53,188
Well, that's where I think it gets
interesting, right?

1441
01:23:53,188 --> 01:23:59,731
Because if you can plug that into chat, if
you can plug my essay into chat GPT and it

1442
01:23:59,731 --> 01:24:04,294
gives you like a great answer, then maybe
I have a problem with my question.

1443
01:24:04,414 --> 01:24:08,696
You know, maybe the stuff that I'm asking
is outdated.

1444
01:24:09,817 --> 01:24:10,177
Right?

1445
01:24:10,177 --> 01:24:14,500
Just like, you know, our teachers when I
was younger, like telling us like, you

1446
01:24:14,500 --> 01:24:16,821
know, you're never gonna have a calculator
with you all the time.

1447
01:24:16,821 --> 01:24:18,026
You have to learn this.

1448
01:24:18,026 --> 01:24:21,087
And now we've got phones that have
calculators all the time with us.

1449
01:24:21,087 --> 01:24:21,327
Right?

1450
01:24:21,327 --> 01:24:28,051
Like, so that's kind of a, you know, use
the tools we have.

1451
01:24:28,051 --> 01:24:28,771
Right?

1452
01:24:29,372 --> 01:24:34,715
So maybe we're asking questions that are
too easily answered in a formulaic way.

1453
01:24:35,756 --> 01:24:39,638
So to combat that, it has to, I need more
personal stuff.

1454
01:24:39,638 --> 01:24:42,920
I need you to think about you and your
experience in your life.

1455
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:45,061
Cause that's not in chat GPT.

1456
01:24:45,061 --> 01:24:46,761
That's not in the internet.

1457
01:24:47,274 --> 01:24:48,414
And that's hard.

1458
01:24:48,635 --> 01:24:54,880
That's very tricky, but I think maybe
education in general kind of needs that

1459
01:24:54,880 --> 01:25:00,524
little kick in the ass because a lot of
the testing we have to do, the state tests

1460
01:25:00,524 --> 01:25:03,527
and stuff, they're so predictable.

1461
01:25:03,947 --> 01:25:07,890
And you wind up teaching them in a certain
way.

1462
01:25:08,191 --> 01:25:11,193
I'd say to my classes all the time, I
would never teach you this is how to

1463
01:25:11,193 --> 01:25:12,074
write.

1464
01:25:12,374 --> 01:25:15,797
I'm teaching you how to be smarter than
this test.

1465
01:25:16,462 --> 01:25:18,963
Because if they're going to ask you the
same thing the same way every time, let's

1466
01:25:18,963 --> 01:25:19,703
be ready.

1467
01:25:19,703 --> 01:25:23,725
You know, if you were on a team and you
knew the other team was going to run the

1468
01:25:23,725 --> 01:25:27,928
exact play every time, wouldn't you
prepare for that and outsmart them?

1469
01:25:28,128 --> 01:25:34,011
So it's kind of like what I'm teaching in
that case is more like how to outsmart the

1470
01:25:34,011 --> 01:25:34,952
test.

1471
01:25:34,952 --> 01:25:40,014
It's like a strategy, which I don't think
is bad, but it's not writing.

1472
01:25:40,014 --> 01:25:40,975
It's not reading.

1473
01:25:40,975 --> 01:25:43,116
It's not English skills.

1474
01:25:44,037 --> 01:25:46,057
So maybe we need to figure out.

1475
01:25:47,102 --> 01:25:50,278
more clever ways to do that sort of stuff.

1476
01:25:50,756 --> 01:25:52,497
Yeah.

1477
01:25:52,497 --> 01:25:57,101
I think, I think for education, it's, uh,
it can be such a gift.

1478
01:25:57,101 --> 01:26:00,083
I think in the beginning it will be a
little bit of a curse because yeah, you

1479
01:26:00,083 --> 01:26:04,107
know, like I remember when I was in high
school, there was this website that had

1480
01:26:04,107 --> 01:26:07,570
summaries of books and like, when I found
that I was like, no, I'm never going to

1481
01:26:07,570 --> 01:26:09,511
have to read a boring book again.

1482
01:26:09,672 --> 01:26:10,512
You know?

1483
01:26:11,193 --> 01:26:14,311
Um, but like imagine.

1484
01:26:14,311 --> 01:26:18,797
that's great if I'm asking you what color
shoes was he wearing?

1485
01:26:18,797 --> 01:26:25,085
But if I wanna know something a little
deeper about what this says about humanity

1486
01:26:25,085 --> 01:26:32,025
and how does this apply to your life as a
musician, now you have to think.

1487
01:26:32,025 --> 01:26:33,895
struggle with questions like that.

1488
01:26:34,570 --> 01:26:37,184
Well, it doesn't know you.

1489
01:26:37,648 --> 01:26:40,821
But what if I gave it some information
about me and would say like, answer the

1490
01:26:40,821 --> 01:26:43,409
question from the perspective of a
producer.

1491
01:26:43,581 --> 01:26:47,624
Yeah, well, that's part of what you can
do.

1492
01:26:47,624 --> 01:26:48,524
Yeah, you can start.

1493
01:26:48,524 --> 01:26:49,928
And that's.

1494
01:26:49,928 --> 01:26:53,666
mean to give your students if they're
listening any ideas.

1495
01:26:53,666 --> 01:26:58,810
a way, I think that's at least, I'd rather
them do that than just get the first thing

1496
01:26:58,810 --> 01:27:00,992
it spits out, right?

1497
01:27:00,992 --> 01:27:07,756
I'd rather them think about it and look at
it and question it and, you know.

1498
01:27:08,997 --> 01:27:15,302
But yeah, like maybe some of this stuff
isn't as necessary anymore, I don't know.

1499
01:27:15,782 --> 01:27:18,824
But a big thing I've been doing more of is
like,

1500
01:27:20,362 --> 01:27:24,663
And this is especially with, I teach
students that are learning English.

1501
01:27:24,723 --> 01:27:29,164
So a lot of our families, immigrant
families, and their first generation

1502
01:27:29,164 --> 01:27:34,125
learning English, and their big advantage
is that they speak two languages.

1503
01:27:34,626 --> 01:27:38,727
So really want to lean into that with
them, but it doesn't matter if you can't

1504
01:27:38,727 --> 01:27:40,027
speak in front of people.

1505
01:27:40,027 --> 01:27:42,608
So that's what you're going to do.

1506
01:27:42,608 --> 01:27:46,569
You're going to present this, you're going
to speak, you're going to do things in

1507
01:27:46,569 --> 01:27:49,069
real life that a computer can't do for
you.

1508
01:27:52,391 --> 01:27:57,595
And yeah, I don't know if I use it to
write my artist bio.

1509
01:27:58,836 --> 01:28:02,419
I don't see a problem with that because
that's not what I'm here for.

1510
01:28:02,419 --> 01:28:04,361
I'm not here to write a cool bio.

1511
01:28:04,361 --> 01:28:06,583
I want you to listen to my music, right?

1512
01:28:06,783 --> 01:28:14,250
So if I'm wasting time writing a bio,
that's like this.

1513
01:28:14,250 --> 01:28:18,173
I don't know, I have a lot of mixed
feelings, I guess, but overall it's

1514
01:28:18,173 --> 01:28:18,873
like...

1515
01:28:18,994 --> 01:28:21,261
It doesn't matter how I feel, it's what's
happening.

1516
01:28:21,261 --> 01:28:24,489
So we gotta figure out how to work with
it.

1517
01:28:25,060 --> 01:28:26,264
Yeah, fair enough.

1518
01:28:29,686 --> 01:28:30,351
What are you thinking?

1519
01:28:30,351 --> 01:28:32,604
Do you think, are you?

1520
01:28:32,716 --> 01:28:37,418
I mean, like on the one side, I'm
completely on board with the idea of why

1521
01:28:37,418 --> 01:28:43,161
do I need to learn math if I have a
calculator, you know, that's great.

1522
01:28:43,642 --> 01:28:48,625
Why do I need to know like six times six
is 36 if I have a calculator?

1523
01:28:49,185 --> 01:28:56,890
But I do also think on the other side that
learning those math things like the

1524
01:28:56,890 --> 01:28:59,618
tables, I don't know what you call it in
English, but we...

1525
01:28:59,618 --> 01:29:00,324
tables.

1526
01:29:00,324 --> 01:29:02,665
Yeah, multiplication tables.

1527
01:29:02,805 --> 01:29:08,668
That's also just a good practice to get
your brain working in the first place.

1528
01:29:08,689 --> 01:29:11,751
And in the second place, also a good
practice to get a feel for numbers.

1529
01:29:11,751 --> 01:29:17,454
And, um, I was actually funny enough
having a thing with my, uh, with my wife

1530
01:29:17,454 --> 01:29:21,156
last night, she wanted to calculate
something and, you know, like, well, I'm a

1531
01:29:21,156 --> 01:29:24,098
little bit of a geek and like, I, I like
numbers.

1532
01:29:24,098 --> 01:29:25,559
I always loved math and stuff.

1533
01:29:25,559 --> 01:29:26,119
And.

1534
01:29:26,800 --> 01:29:28,801
And she asked me how to do this math
thing.

1535
01:29:28,801 --> 01:29:31,302
And I was like, okay, I was trying to
explain to her how to do it and how to

1536
01:29:31,302 --> 01:29:32,802
figure it out herself.

1537
01:29:33,283 --> 01:29:34,323
And she was totally fine.

1538
01:29:34,323 --> 01:29:38,805
Like she could totally do it, but I can
definitely see a world in which people

1539
01:29:39,125 --> 01:29:41,186
lose some of those basic skills.

1540
01:29:41,186 --> 01:29:45,228
And then you can only do it with a
calculator, you know, like, and like, how

1541
01:29:45,228 --> 01:29:47,789
are you going to know that the calculator
is right?

1542
01:29:47,789 --> 01:29:54,192
You know, like if you hit the wrong button
and six times six is not 36, but like

1543
01:29:54,573 --> 01:29:55,913
something completely different.

1544
01:29:55,913 --> 01:29:56,394
Yeah.

1545
01:29:56,394 --> 01:29:59,355
And then you're like, yeah, did you say
63?

1546
01:30:00,956 --> 01:30:02,517
Yeah, OK, exactly, 360.

1547
01:30:02,758 --> 01:30:04,118
Great, yeah, or 63.

1548
01:30:04,118 --> 01:30:08,581
You know, like, hey, something went wrong
in this transaction, you know?

1549
01:30:09,242 --> 01:30:10,963
It is nice to have some of those skills.

1550
01:30:10,963 --> 01:30:17,067
And yeah, I don't, I really, it's a big
challenge, I think, for education to find

1551
01:30:17,067 --> 01:30:17,467
the balance.

1552
01:30:17,467 --> 01:30:22,810
Because I also see a great tool in things
like ChatGPT to help people learn things.

1553
01:30:22,810 --> 01:30:24,571
Like, you could.

1554
01:30:24,644 --> 01:30:31,827
have so much more one-on-one time with a
knowledgeable chat bot, then you could

1555
01:30:31,827 --> 01:30:33,588
have one-on-one with the teacher, you
know.

1556
01:30:33,588 --> 01:30:37,650
And then, like you said, you could focus
even more on the kids that really need

1557
01:30:37,650 --> 01:30:41,872
that extra human attention from you, the
teacher.

1558
01:30:43,473 --> 01:30:48,715
So it can be like a really great gift if
it's used the right way as well, I think.

1559
01:30:49,244 --> 01:30:55,014
but I don't think it's necessarily good to
completely lose all the more basic

1560
01:30:55,014 --> 01:30:56,035
abilities.

1561
01:30:56,470 --> 01:30:57,590
Yeah.

1562
01:30:57,590 --> 01:31:03,252
Well, I think a lot of the stuff I learned
in my math classes, for instance, most of

1563
01:31:03,252 --> 01:31:07,893
which I've never had to use again, you
know, most of which I've never, but I

1564
01:31:07,893 --> 01:31:09,733
learned problem solving.

1565
01:31:10,094 --> 01:31:14,975
I learned how to think through these
equations and I think that helps in a lot

1566
01:31:14,975 --> 01:31:17,236
of other areas in life.

1567
01:31:17,236 --> 01:31:22,337
And, you know, I think we've been talking
about this a lot with music, how

1568
01:31:23,018 --> 01:31:26,521
You kind of learn, like you're learning
stuff through making a plugin that's

1569
01:31:26,521 --> 01:31:29,604
applying to music making, even though it's
not directly.

1570
01:31:29,604 --> 01:31:34,509
And I'm sure some of your approaches to
music making correlated nicely to making

1571
01:31:34,509 --> 01:31:35,630
this plugin.

1572
01:31:37,192 --> 01:31:41,856
Those it's thinking it's mental workouts.

1573
01:31:41,856 --> 01:31:47,361
Like you said, just figuring out those
familiarity with numbers.

1574
01:31:49,154 --> 01:31:51,818
That's an important thing that we exercise
our brain.

1575
01:31:51,818 --> 01:31:57,325
That's why they say you gotta do crossword
puzzles as you get older and Sudoku and

1576
01:31:57,325 --> 01:31:59,648
all these things just to keep the mind
fresh.

1577
01:31:59,648 --> 01:32:03,793
Because it's kind of like a muscle that
will atrophy.

1578
01:32:04,796 --> 01:32:05,697
Absolutely.

1579
01:32:05,697 --> 01:32:06,958
Yeah, absolutely.

1580
01:32:10,583 --> 01:32:12,509
Yeah, yes

1581
01:32:12,509 --> 01:32:13,269
I said.

1582
01:32:13,710 --> 01:32:16,071
But sometimes the rust is good, I don't
know.

1583
01:32:16,552 --> 01:32:21,876
Like you said earlier, the advice doesn't
apply all the time, every time.

1584
01:32:21,876 --> 01:32:24,317
The trick is knowing when it applies.

1585
01:32:24,609 --> 01:32:25,490
Exactly.

1586
01:32:25,490 --> 01:32:26,811
Yeah, exactly.

1587
01:32:28,618 --> 01:32:32,879
Well, listen, I know you've got bedtime
duties coming up, so I don't want to keep

1588
01:32:32,879 --> 01:32:33,779
you from that.

1589
01:32:33,779 --> 01:32:36,940
I don't want to get in trouble, get you in
trouble.

1590
01:32:37,240 --> 01:32:46,642
So we can definitely send people to
dsp.thehymn.com to check out SubNinja.

1591
01:32:46,823 --> 01:32:51,684
I'm going to have these links in the show
notes as well.

1592
01:32:52,804 --> 01:32:56,938
I think it's a really cool plugin that
does something that I don't really...

1593
01:32:56,938 --> 01:32:58,699
know of any other tool that does.

1594
01:32:58,699 --> 01:33:05,484
It's very specific for getting like the
bass stuff right and it's also just like I

1595
01:33:05,484 --> 01:33:10,087
kind of said earlier about like how I used
to look at the EQ spectrum on songs I just

1596
01:33:10,087 --> 01:33:17,053
think it's interesting to see because I
noticed when looking at SubNinja like with

1597
01:33:17,053 --> 01:33:22,497
things like side chaining like sometimes
you dial in the release just right and

1598
01:33:22,497 --> 01:33:23,470
suddenly now it's

1599
01:33:23,470 --> 01:33:26,771
pumping in that way that's rhythmic, that
fits the music.

1600
01:33:26,771 --> 01:33:31,853
And you can kind of see it with the way
you've got like the grid lines in there.

1601
01:33:33,493 --> 01:33:37,655
It's great reference for like education
too.

1602
01:33:38,655 --> 01:33:40,696
So I think it's pretty cool.

1603
01:33:42,517 --> 01:33:44,237
Anywhere else you want to send people?

1604
01:33:45,008 --> 01:33:51,610
No, yeah, go check out Sub Ninja and the
him on Spotify and Instagram and wherever

1605
01:33:51,610 --> 01:33:53,030
you want to find me.

1606
01:33:53,591 --> 01:33:58,513
We've started a Discord for people that
are interested in Sub Ninja and just also

1607
01:33:58,513 --> 01:34:03,434
chatting about music production stuff that
you can all find on the site.

1608
01:34:04,235 --> 01:34:06,355
So yeah, reach out to me.

1609
01:34:06,766 --> 01:34:07,626
That's awesome, man.

1610
01:34:07,626 --> 01:34:12,910
I congratulate you on, you know, jumping
into this whole other realm and following

1611
01:34:12,910 --> 01:34:13,990
through.

1612
01:34:14,111 --> 01:34:16,813
And it seems like it's been a successful
release.

1613
01:34:16,813 --> 01:34:21,476
I see like some of your testimonials or
names I recognize, Tom Frampton.

1614
01:34:21,756 --> 01:34:27,000
I see that you passed the snake oil test
with White Sea Studio, which is an

1615
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:28,220
accomplishment.

1616
01:34:30,402 --> 01:34:32,203
Yeah, that's great, man.

1617
01:34:32,203 --> 01:34:33,484
But I understand why.

1618
01:34:33,484 --> 01:34:34,725
It's good stuff.

1619
01:34:34,725 --> 01:34:35,016
And it's...

1620
01:34:35,016 --> 01:34:35,666
Thank you so much.

1621
01:34:35,666 --> 01:34:39,409
It's hard to find something new, you know?

1622
01:34:39,409 --> 01:34:44,053
Like these days, like there's so many
different types of plugins and you've kind

1623
01:34:44,053 --> 01:34:46,295
of found something that wasn't really
covered.

1624
01:34:46,295 --> 01:34:51,020
So that's an accomplishment in and of
itself and to follow through with it even

1625
01:34:51,020 --> 01:34:51,800
better.

1626
01:34:52,361 --> 01:34:56,965
So, you know, I wish you lots of success
with it and I'm excited to find out what's

1627
01:34:56,965 --> 01:34:57,466
next.

1628
01:34:57,466 --> 01:35:02,249
And I encourage everyone listening to
check it out.

1629
01:35:02,717 --> 01:35:03,578
Thank you so much, Brian.

1630
01:35:03,578 --> 01:35:05,142
This was really, really fun.

1631
01:35:05,142 --> 01:35:06,274
Great conversation.

1632
01:35:06,274 --> 01:35:06,782
Cool.

1633
01:35:06,782 --> 01:35:07,607
Thank you.

1634
01:35:08,328 --> 01:35:08,975
Cheers.

1635
01:35:09,428 --> 01:35:10,398
Alrighty.

1636
01:35:11,100 --> 01:35:11,740
Woo!