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Hey, Jackie, we're back a little
bit off schedule here with a pop up

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episode because we've had something
happened in our community that we

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felt the need to talk about, right?

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Yeah.

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And whenever there is something that
we believe is kind of time sensitive,

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we like to kind of discuss it.

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And that's a good thing about
doing the podcast with you.

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We're friends and we have a lot of
friends in the five community and

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the personal finance community.

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And our topic today is about one
of those friends that we did not

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get Very good news from this week.

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Yeah, Jonathan Clements my friend
and yours actually yesterday

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released a blog on his blog,
Humble Dollar, called The C Word.

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When this came across My desk or
my desktop as would be certainly a

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catchy title and I don't read every
blog But I definitely clicked in on

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this one and it was not about what
I wanted to read about It was about

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Jonathan Clements divulging the fact
that he'd been diagnosed with terminal

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metastatic lung cancer He's 61 years old.

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This was a shock to me and
the way he wrote about it

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was so eloquent and touching.

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I thought we should talk about it.

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Yeah.

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And I just know of him.

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I know his work and he's touched
so many people, but you know

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him personally and he's been a
close personal friend of yours.

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And I remember the first time we've been
friends for years, you and I, and I just

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remember the first time I learned about
your whole story was on humble dollar.

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And so that's when I knew you guys had
a connection and you were close friends

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beyond just professional acquaintances.

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So I thought it was great that
his platform was where you

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first shared your story and you
bared it all and it was great.

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So yeah, this news was kind of hard
and I'm sure it's been hard for

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him and he's been processing it.

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But he has an awesome community of
people that love him like we do.

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And we just wanted to talk about
it a little bit because I think

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there's some bigger implications
and some takeaways that we wanted

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to share with our community.

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Yeah.

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I mean, Jonathan was a guest on the
early days of the show when we launched

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it and it was after, as you said, my
coming out party where I decided to say

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to the world, I am catching up late.

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I'm a physician.

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I've made all the mistakes in the
world and I've got to catch up.

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And his blog was the platform
on which that came out.

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And that came out shortly before
the launch of the podcast.

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So he's been an advocate and a supporter.

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Of this cause from the beginning,

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And Bill, if you think about it he was
just on the podcast a few months ago.

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I think it was the end of 2023.

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So I'm thinking it was like November,
December, something like that.

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He was on Episode 40.

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I looked it up the other
day and  in that episode.

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We talked about his book that I've
read how to think about money.

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And, for him, the conversation was.

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Much larger than money.

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It was more about happiness and the
search for it, how to find it, how to

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use money as a tool to help you find your
own individual happiness his messaging

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and philosophy transcends our generation.

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Yeah.

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And Bill, he so eloquently wrote about
the C word on his blog, humble dollar.

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And it was, it just shows his
true gift, and that is writing.

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And I think that he had a lot to
say, even in this post, I'm sure

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it's very difficult to write.

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And, I feel like we're all put
on this earth to do something.

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And I think his purpose was the
body of work that he put out.

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And with all the books that he
has, and Humble Dollar and all the

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content he creates there, not to
mention all his other accolades

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and the work that he's done.

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I think we were so lucky to have all
this and to still have it, really.

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But I know the way that he wrote
it, it may have been the best outlet

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for him because that's what he does.

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And it was just so deep and heartfelt.

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That it made me think
about, what have I built?

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What's my legacy?

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And if I were to leave this earth
tomorrow, would I feel like I accomplished

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the things that I wanted to accomplish?

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And I would say my work is not done.

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However, I'd be satisfied with some of the
things that I've put out in this world,

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and I would love our audience to think
about that for themselves, aside from the

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monetary things, What have you built for
your legacy and are you proud of what you

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built and how people will remember you?

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So if you had to ask yourself that bill,
do you think that you have, created the

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life you wanted if it was gone tomorrow?

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Yes, I can say today.

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The answer is yes.

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Maybe even a couple of years ago, I
couldn't have said the same thing.

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you grow your family, you leave a
legacy of a loving wife, two kids, a

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job in emergency medicine that allows
you the privilege of saving lives

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occasionally and redirecting lives most
of the time down the path that they

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need to take with their own health.

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The Catching Up to Fi movement, the
Fi movement has redirected my life.

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It's changed my life dramatically.

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People like Jonathan, people
like yourself, people like Becky,

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our previous co host and all the
friends in the Fi community, my life

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would not be the same without it.

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It is so much more of a robust thing.

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It's so much more than about the money.

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that's where we start.

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But we get above the money into
the clean or more rarefied air.

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And that's where Jonathan lives.

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And I wrote a letter to him that
I'd like to read on the show.

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And I'd encourage folks to go
read his blog, the C word on June

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15th yesterday on humble dollar

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Yeah, Bill, I think that
post I just looked at it.

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It's been up for about a day and
it's got nearly 300 comments which

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shows how the community feels about
him and I was going to ask you if

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you didn't mind reading that letter.

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I know it's a personal thing because
you had that connection with him.

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So I think our audience will benefit
from you sharing what you wrote.

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Yeah,

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on the blog, but I wrote it to him in
an email as well, and he responded, so.

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I said, Jonathan, your clarity, poise,
and courage in the face of your recent

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terminal diagnosis is truly inspiring.

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I am sad, and wish to send you,
your family, and your countless

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friends my love and support.

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an emergency physician, I see
the worst day of people's lives.

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They come in with seemingly
innocuous symptoms and leave

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with a terminal diagnosis.

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Telling people that I diagnosed with
metastatic cancer that they are dying

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is one of the hardest parts of my job.

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I can imagine what that day
must have been like for you.

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As a friend, I consider myself
incredibly lucky to know you and that

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our lives collided because of our
mutual interest in financial literacy.

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We broke bread and shared a good bottle
of wine after your marvelous talk at

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Jim Dalley, the White Coat Investors
first conference in Park City, Utah.

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We recently saw each other again at
last year's Bogleheads conference and

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chatted with Bill Bernstein and Alan
Roth about the merits of small cap value.

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Also important, you are one
of my heroes and you've had an

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immeasurable impact on my life.

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As a fellow creator, I'm in awe of
the body of your work and the timeless

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legacy it leaves in our world.

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I have read all your books and have been
a reader of your blog since the beginning.

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I cherish the signed copies
of your books that I have.

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You generously helped me come out as a
late starter on the journey to financial

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independence by publishing my blog,
saving our retirement on humble dollar.

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In January of 2023, I think it was.

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You graced us with guesting on my
fledgling podcast, catching up to fi

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where we talked about how to think
about money, I am so grateful for

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the time we have shared together.

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You've shown us how to live.

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And our wonderful mentor, you have
gotten it right with life and have

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enticed us how to value our most
precious resources of time and

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freedom in face of a premature death.

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You recognize that you are not dead yet
and still have so much more to give.

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I hope to emulate your example.

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I wish you a peaceful
journey warmest regards bill.

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Jonathan responded just a few hours
later and he said many thanks for

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the email bill and the kind words.

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I hope things are going well for you.

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He's also in the face of the worst
news you can ever get thinking

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about everybody else, a true
Testament to the person that he is.

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that was beautiful.

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I know it must have been very hard
for you to write that letter, but so

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many wonderful uplifting things that
you said that I'm sure means a lot

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to him as all of the messages that he
got on his blog after he shared that.

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So I think that's awesome.

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And I know that he,
appreciated your words.

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You're a pretty good writer yourself.

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Yeah, well, I've written
a few blogs, not too many.

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And, I leave the writing to people like
Donathan that are wordsmiths and can

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He's the master.

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leave the podcasting to us maybe, right?

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Yeah, right.

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So, creation is such a cool thing.

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leaving a legacy personal
and publicly is a cool thing.

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It's what helps you come to grips with.

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when your time is marked, when your time
is numbered, and I look forward to seeing

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what Jonathan does with his time left.

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I think he has so much to give, and
he recognizes that, and he's going to

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work furiously to not only empty his
bucket list, probably, but to continue

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doing what he has already created.

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I don't know that he would change his
day very much from what he's living now.

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Yeah.

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And Bill with that, shall
we replay his episode?

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So that everybody can get
reacquainted with Jonathan Clements.

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You can watch it on YouTube or you can
listen to it via podcast or whatever way

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you prefer to listen to our audio version.

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But I think it's definitely worth re
airing because our hearts are so warm.

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I'm thinking about him and we want
to send him all the love and support

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that he deserves for putting out
such amazing content and actually

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making us all a little bit better.

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Yeah.

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Jackie, I think that's a fantastic idea.

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Why don't we push play, right now?

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Now.

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Hello, and welcome back
to Catching Up to FI.

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I'm Bill Yount with my co host
Becky Heptig, and we're so

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excited about our guest today.

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But first, let's find out
about what Becky's up to.

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How are you doing, Becky?

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I'm doing great, Bill.

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Steven and I just got back from
several days over in Crested

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Butte, where it's just beautiful.

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And we e biked, not for the
first time, but second time.

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And it was the first time on an
e bike that had a throttle on it.

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So that was an interesting experience.

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But it was

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fun.

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Well, you were visiting with Mark
Troutman, one of our co hosts and

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a frequent visitor on the podcast.

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Isn't that right?

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Yes, we were.

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Mark and his daughter, Katie, we
hung out with them and enjoyed

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the beauty in Crested Butte.

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Well, we're excited also to head
this week to Podcast Movement.

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Becky and I will be first timers there.

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And we're looking forward to meeting
up with friends of ours and learning

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a little bit more about podcasting.

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That's right.

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Are you ready to roll here, Becky?

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We are.

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We

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are.

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Go for

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it.

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Okay.

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We have today Jonathan
Clements with us on the show.

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Jonathan is a once wimpy
English school boy who became

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00:11:31,022 --> 00:11:32,642
a prolific runner and cyclist.

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He's the founder and editor of the
personal finance website, Humble Dollar.

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00:11:36,872 --> 00:11:40,612
He also sits on the advisory board of
creative planning, one of the country's

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00:11:40,862 --> 00:11:42,992
largest independent financial advisors.

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00:11:43,352 --> 00:11:45,932
And is the author of nine
personal finance books.

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Earlier in his career, Jonathan spent
almost 20 years at the Wall Street

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00:11:49,602 --> 00:11:54,142
Journal, where he was the newspaper's
personal finance columnist, and six years

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00:11:54,142 --> 00:11:57,982
at Citigroup, where he was the director
of financial education for the bank's U.

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S.

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wealth management arm.

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Born in England and educated at Cambridge
University, Jonathan now lives in

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Philadelphia, just a few blocks from
his daughter, son in law, and grandson.

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00:12:08,877 --> 00:12:11,797
I met Jonathan at the inaugural
White Coat Investor Conference

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in Park City, Utah in 2019.

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We went out to dinner after his excellent
talk and shared a lovely bottle of wine.

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00:12:19,142 --> 00:12:21,092
We have stayed in touch
virtually over the years.

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When I was finally ready to come out
of the closet with my Catching Up to

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00:12:24,682 --> 00:12:28,962
FI late starter story, he generously
offered to publish a blog I wrote called

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Saving Our Retirement on his website.

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I am looking forward to seeing him
again at the Bogleheads Conference

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00:12:34,382 --> 00:12:36,212
this October in Rockville, Maryland.

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00:12:36,702 --> 00:12:40,862
Today we are interested in speaking with
Jonathan about topics he covers in two of

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00:12:40,862 --> 00:12:45,312
his books, How to Think About Money, and
his most recent book, My Money Journey,

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00:12:45,342 --> 00:12:47,692
How 30 People Found Financial Freedom.

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00:12:47,952 --> 00:12:49,022
And you can too.

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Please note that one of the journeys in
this book is that of a person who makes a,

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00:12:54,062 --> 00:12:57,392
quote, comeback in midlife, just like us.

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00:12:58,182 --> 00:13:01,522
It's with great pleasure that we
welcome Jonathan to Catching Up to Five.

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00:13:01,822 --> 00:13:02,922
How are you doing today, Jonathan?

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00:13:03,732 --> 00:13:04,072
Great,

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00:13:04,082 --> 00:13:06,222
Bill, and thank you for having me on.

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00:13:06,272 --> 00:13:07,292
Thank you, too, Becky.

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00:13:07,302 --> 00:13:08,452
It's great to be talking with you.

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00:13:09,382 --> 00:13:09,902
Okay.

253
00:13:10,152 --> 00:13:11,582
Well, let's jump right in.

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00:13:12,022 --> 00:13:14,452
In My Money Journey, you tell your story.

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00:13:14,692 --> 00:13:17,082
To give us a little context, can
you take us through your story

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00:13:17,082 --> 00:13:18,812
a bit through the lens of money?

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00:13:20,562 --> 00:13:25,712
So, as I explain in the book My Money
Journey My financial life is really

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00:13:25,712 --> 00:13:31,132
divided in two with the dividing line
falling around age 45 and the first half

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00:13:31,132 --> 00:13:36,302
of my financial journey followed a rather
predictable course to the extent that

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00:13:37,252 --> 00:13:41,722
I did what a lot of people who achieve
fire did, which is I lived way below

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00:13:41,742 --> 00:13:45,202
my means, saved huge amounts of money.

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00:13:45,447 --> 00:13:50,667
Stashed every dollar I could into
stock index funds while at the same

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00:13:50,667 --> 00:13:57,247
time paying down debt and the result
was that by age 45 or so, I had pretty

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00:13:57,247 --> 00:14:00,197
close to a seven figure portfolio.

265
00:14:00,697 --> 00:14:03,017
The years since have been
much more unpredictable.

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I refer to it as my second childhood
where I've tried my hand at a

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00:14:06,897 --> 00:14:08,477
whole bunch of different things.

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00:14:08,867 --> 00:14:10,487
Can continue to make money, but.

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00:14:10,797 --> 00:14:15,457
not nearly as as much as I did in
the early years, but in many ways

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00:14:15,477 --> 00:14:19,507
that period of exploration has
been a more fun part of my life.

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00:14:19,577 --> 00:14:23,657
I've tried my hand at a lot of different
things including launching the website

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00:14:23,657 --> 00:14:25,587
that you mentioned, Bill HumbleDollar.

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00:14:25,617 --> 00:14:27,997
com, which is what I spend
most of my days doing now.

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00:14:29,942 --> 00:14:35,242
Okay, well, your section of the book
in which your story is described

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00:14:35,292 --> 00:14:38,042
is that of fierce frugality.

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Do you feel like, given that you did
that early on in your career, that

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00:14:42,732 --> 00:14:44,332
you suffered from any deprivation?

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00:14:46,822 --> 00:14:47,872
I would say

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00:14:47,892 --> 00:14:49,272
that in retrospect,

280
00:14:49,272 --> 00:14:53,882
I should have cut myself a little
bit more slack, that I held the

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00:14:53,882 --> 00:14:55,912
purse strings a little too tight.

282
00:14:56,122 --> 00:15:01,132
I was too concerned about,
amassing enough for the future.

283
00:15:01,602 --> 00:15:07,372
But in a sense, , this is almost the
inevitable result of the financial

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00:15:07,372 --> 00:15:08,572
uncertainty that we live in.

285
00:15:09,002 --> 00:15:12,082
So we look ahead and we just
don't know what sort of financial

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00:15:12,082 --> 00:15:13,092
hand we're going to be dealt.

287
00:15:13,102 --> 00:15:15,382
We don't know whether we're
going to end up getting divorced.

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00:15:15,402 --> 00:15:20,222
We don't know whether we were going to end
up with no children or multiple children.

289
00:15:20,222 --> 00:15:22,692
We don't know whether one of those
children is going to have special needs.

290
00:15:22,972 --> 00:15:25,322
And we don't know what sort of
health needs we're going to have.

291
00:15:25,852 --> 00:15:29,562
We don't know what's going to
happen with our job situation.

292
00:15:29,702 --> 00:15:31,502
So faced with an uncertain future.

293
00:15:31,797 --> 00:15:36,317
It's almost rational to save too
much early on, but some of us.

294
00:15:37,042 --> 00:15:37,622
overdo it.

295
00:15:37,652 --> 00:15:40,462
And I would say that I'm definitely
in the camp who over did it, that I

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00:15:40,492 --> 00:15:42,312
saved too much in the early years.

297
00:15:42,682 --> 00:15:48,872
One example of that is that I lived
in this same house for 20 years

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00:15:48,902 --> 00:15:54,102
that I basically didn't really like
the, it was an inexpensive house.

299
00:15:54,512 --> 00:15:56,542
I paid off the mortgage quickly.

300
00:15:56,792 --> 00:16:01,577
my property taxes were relatively low for
somebody living in the northeast and this

301
00:16:01,577 --> 00:16:03,467
allowed me to save great gulps of money.

302
00:16:03,467 --> 00:16:06,397
It was a wonderful move from
a financial point of view.

303
00:16:06,627 --> 00:16:10,627
Whether it was a good move from the point
of view of happiness, that's debatable.

304
00:16:12,607 --> 00:16:16,707
There are a lot of folks in the
FI community that I believe have

305
00:16:16,707 --> 00:16:18,357
shifted over the last few years.

306
00:16:18,357 --> 00:16:25,802
The mindset has sort of shifted from the
extreme frugality to the we need to enjoy

307
00:16:25,802 --> 00:16:27,682
our life as we go along the journey.

308
00:16:27,732 --> 00:16:33,142
And I know that you made a comment
on a podcast when you were speaking

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00:16:33,152 --> 00:16:36,982
with the folks over at the Longview
that our children watch what

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00:16:36,982 --> 00:16:41,152
we are doing and that maybe you
actually taught your son too well.

311
00:16:41,607 --> 00:16:43,187
About the frugality.

312
00:16:44,287 --> 00:16:45,747
I thought that was an interesting comment.

313
00:16:46,247 --> 00:16:46,407
Yeah.

314
00:16:46,407 --> 00:16:49,177
When we think about teaching our
kids about money, we think that, the

315
00:16:49,177 --> 00:16:52,767
lectures that we deliver to them are the
things that are going to change their

316
00:16:52,787 --> 00:16:56,487
attitude towards money, but it's not the
thing that will change their attitude

317
00:16:56,497 --> 00:16:58,617
towards money is the way we behave.

318
00:16:58,807 --> 00:17:01,057
They will model our behavior.

319
00:17:01,327 --> 00:17:05,087
And if they see us being extremely
careful with money, they too are

320
00:17:05,097 --> 00:17:08,847
likely to be extremely careful with
money unless of course they react

321
00:17:08,847 --> 00:17:10,227
and go to the opposite extreme.

322
00:17:10,307 --> 00:17:11,567
It could be one or the other.

323
00:17:11,992 --> 00:17:16,682
But in the case of both my Children, yes,
they are extremely careful with money,

324
00:17:16,962 --> 00:17:19,362
and in many ways that is a good thing.

325
00:17:19,362 --> 00:17:21,562
I don't have to worry
about them financially.

326
00:17:21,952 --> 00:17:25,702
But, come back to what
I was saying earlier.

327
00:17:26,342 --> 00:17:28,902
Is that a prescription for
a happier financial life?

328
00:17:29,212 --> 00:17:36,612
I don't think the money necessarily buys
happiness, but putting ourselves in too

329
00:17:36,612 --> 00:17:41,402
tight of financial constraint and worrying
too much about how much we're spending.

330
00:17:41,402 --> 00:17:44,172
Yeah, that can be, that can cause
unhappiness just as spending

331
00:17:44,172 --> 00:17:45,562
too much can cause unhappiness.

332
00:17:46,332 --> 00:17:46,482
I'm

333
00:17:46,482 --> 00:17:54,242
interested to know what about your earlier
money scripts led you to do things right?

334
00:17:54,612 --> 00:17:59,292
Like a lot of folks that are, as
you advocate, start early, start

335
00:17:59,292 --> 00:18:04,172
strong, get free in 20 years and move
on to your second financial life.

336
00:18:04,562 --> 00:18:08,032
What about your upbringing
got you to that mindset?

337
00:18:09,582 --> 00:18:13,132
So one of the things that I grew
up with was the great family story.

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00:18:13,132 --> 00:18:16,682
And the story was about my great, great.

339
00:18:18,002 --> 00:18:24,142
who, when he died in the 1880s was
described in the newspaper as being

340
00:18:25,557 --> 00:18:27,237
one of the richest men in England.

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00:18:27,477 --> 00:18:32,267
He had made a fortune
principally selling cigarettes.

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00:18:32,857 --> 00:18:39,297
And that fortune passed to my great
grandmother, and she lived the sort

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00:18:39,297 --> 00:18:42,417
of life that you see on Downton Abbey.

344
00:18:43,127 --> 00:18:48,677
And then she bequeathed her fortune to her
five children, including my grandfather.

345
00:18:49,232 --> 00:18:53,902
And that money disappeared in short order.

346
00:18:54,152 --> 00:18:58,352
My grandfather's siblings wasted
it on wine, women, and song.

347
00:18:58,962 --> 00:19:01,832
And my grandfather wasted
it on gentleman farming.

348
00:19:02,242 --> 00:19:06,512
He started out with a big farm, didn't
make a profit, traded down to a smaller

349
00:19:06,652 --> 00:19:08,612
farm,  as a way to free up capital.

350
00:19:08,812 --> 00:19:12,842
And it just kept going until the farms
got so small that he had to retire.

351
00:19:13,557 --> 00:19:17,167
And that was the great family
story that I grew up with how the

352
00:19:17,177 --> 00:19:19,317
family fortune had been squandered.

353
00:19:19,837 --> 00:19:24,587
And so if you look at me and you look at
the behavior of my three siblings, all

354
00:19:24,587 --> 00:19:27,887
of us are extremely careful with money.

355
00:19:28,097 --> 00:19:29,417
We're also very different people.

356
00:19:29,417 --> 00:19:32,677
Otherwise, we are all
extremely careful with money.

357
00:19:32,687 --> 00:19:33,567
And I attribute it.

358
00:19:33,932 --> 00:19:39,642
To this great family story that we grew
up with and it's the reason why even

359
00:19:39,642 --> 00:19:44,262
though I grew up in a comfortable middle
class household, I was pretty careful

360
00:19:44,272 --> 00:19:47,782
with money almost from the get go And
the other thing that contributed to my

361
00:19:47,782 --> 00:19:53,082
frugality was the fact that I was not
very good at family planning So I got

362
00:19:53,182 --> 00:19:54,822
out of college and within two years.

363
00:19:54,852 --> 00:20:01,987
I was a father having to support
a family On a junior reporter's

364
00:20:02,367 --> 00:20:04,117
salary in the New York area.

365
00:20:04,137 --> 00:20:07,767
So I had to get financially
smart super, super quickly.

366
00:20:07,987 --> 00:20:09,987
And so that, too, led me to be.

367
00:20:10,362 --> 00:20:11,572
almost overly frugal.

368
00:20:12,832 --> 00:20:15,742
Why did you become a
personal finance journalist?

369
00:20:16,162 --> 00:20:18,932
Is it the same thing that
you learned earlier in life?

370
00:20:18,992 --> 00:20:24,262
Did that lead you to want to help
folks find the path that you found?

371
00:20:25,792 --> 00:20:27,712
Well, it was actually
Couple of different reasons.

372
00:20:27,712 --> 00:20:30,262
One is I was I was always
interested in economics.

373
00:20:30,502 --> 00:20:33,622
Two, I was always sort of more
specifically interested in

374
00:20:33,632 --> 00:20:35,202
money and how money worked.

375
00:20:35,562 --> 00:20:39,282
But then in terms of being a journalist,
my father had actually been a journalist

376
00:20:39,312 --> 00:20:41,112
for the first 10 years of his life.

377
00:20:41,112 --> 00:20:42,952
I don't have a recollection
of that period.

378
00:20:42,952 --> 00:20:45,972
He exited journalism when
I was three years old.

379
00:20:46,252 --> 00:20:50,842
Nonetheless, out of college in England,
he worked for the Financial Times.

380
00:20:50,852 --> 00:20:54,572
He had worked for the Daily
Telegraph as a financial journalist.

381
00:20:54,762 --> 00:20:58,547
And so In my mind, being a journalist
was at least a possibility.

382
00:20:58,547 --> 00:20:58,847
It was...

383
00:20:59,472 --> 00:21:03,052
It was something that seemed like
something I could do, whereas say,

384
00:21:03,052 --> 00:21:06,212
Bill, being a doctor did not seem
like something that I could do.

385
00:21:08,242 --> 00:21:08,632
Well,

386
00:21:08,642 --> 00:21:12,262
that was a defined path for me
because I was afraid of launching

387
00:21:12,262 --> 00:21:16,532
into the unknown and I wanted to,
secure a job at the end of it.

388
00:21:16,632 --> 00:21:21,542
But I succumbed to all the doctor
bad financial moves, which I think

389
00:21:21,542 --> 00:21:23,812
we've talked about on the show before.

390
00:21:23,812 --> 00:21:25,662
We've also talked with folks like.

391
00:21:26,052 --> 00:21:30,032
Paul Merriman, JL Collins, Rob
Berger, and Alan Roth on the show.

392
00:21:30,542 --> 00:21:34,082
Now, each expert agrees on many of the
principles of portfolio construction,

393
00:21:34,082 --> 00:21:35,482
but there are a few differences.

394
00:21:35,892 --> 00:21:38,552
You have your thoughts about
portfolio construction,

395
00:21:38,832 --> 00:21:40,832
complexity, and diversification.

396
00:21:40,842 --> 00:21:42,722
How have they changed over the years?

397
00:21:44,392 --> 00:21:52,722
As I've grown older, my preference
Has increasingly been for simplicity.

398
00:21:53,142 --> 00:21:58,212
And so while I'm not there yet,
I am on a path to essentially

399
00:21:58,622 --> 00:22:01,092
reduce my portfolio to three funds.

400
00:22:01,592 --> 00:22:06,752
So all of my stock market money is in the
Vanguard total world stock index fund,

401
00:22:06,752 --> 00:22:11,302
or it will be eventually even as of now,
it's my largest single fund holding.

402
00:22:11,512 --> 00:22:14,572
And what I get with that is the ultimate
in stock market diversification.

403
00:22:15,032 --> 00:22:19,142
Every company in the world weighted
according to its market capitalization.

404
00:22:19,422 --> 00:22:22,122
If anything good is happening
in the global stock market,

405
00:22:22,612 --> 00:22:24,502
I will be the beneficiary.

406
00:22:24,522 --> 00:22:26,672
Of course, if anything bad is
happening in the global stock market,

407
00:22:26,672 --> 00:22:28,492
I will also suffer the consequences.

408
00:22:28,922 --> 00:22:32,782
But, if you're an optimist, as I
tend to be, and assume that the

409
00:22:32,782 --> 00:22:36,032
world will continue to grow and
things will get better over time,

410
00:22:36,642 --> 00:22:41,452
as an owner of the Vanguard Total
World Stock Index Fund, I know that

411
00:22:41,452 --> 00:22:43,722
I will be the beneficiary of that.

412
00:22:44,017 --> 00:22:45,397
world prosperity.

413
00:22:45,687 --> 00:22:49,037
And then I counterbalance that
with two short term bond funds

414
00:22:49,387 --> 00:22:50,807
again, both from Vanguard.

415
00:22:50,817 --> 00:22:54,537
One's a short term conventional
government bond fund, and the other is

416
00:22:54,537 --> 00:22:57,207
a short term inflation index bond fund.

417
00:22:57,527 --> 00:23:02,247
And that is the money that I have
set aside if I have a financial

418
00:23:02,367 --> 00:23:04,947
emergency, or once I decide to...

419
00:23:05,367 --> 00:23:09,567
Retire where I'll go for my spending
money each year, but the vast majority

420
00:23:09,567 --> 00:23:13,287
of my money isn't stocks And right now
my biggest single holding and eventually

421
00:23:13,287 --> 00:23:16,657
I hope my only holding will be the
vanguard total world stock index fund

422
00:23:17,327 --> 00:23:22,017
Now that's fascinating because that's
the fund I choose as well, and I

423
00:23:22,027 --> 00:23:23,587
don't hear a lot about that one.

424
00:23:23,597 --> 00:23:26,947
JL Collins, for example,
recommends the total U.

425
00:23:26,947 --> 00:23:27,247
S.

426
00:23:27,417 --> 00:23:30,757
He doesn't recommend any
international diversification.

427
00:23:30,757 --> 00:23:33,137
John Bogle did the same thing.

428
00:23:33,567 --> 00:23:38,297
And on the other side, Alan Roth
and Paul Merriman, Rick Ferry.

429
00:23:38,602 --> 00:23:44,542
All have international interests,
anywhere from, 20 to 40 percent and

430
00:23:44,542 --> 00:23:48,372
in your case, potentially more why
do you stick with the international

431
00:23:48,392 --> 00:23:53,512
diversification and why do you think other
folks, recommend actually against it for

432
00:23:53,512 --> 00:24:02,052
simplicity in a word, Japan, I think that
the collapse of the Japanese stock market

433
00:24:02,052 --> 00:24:13,342
since year end 1989 is in many ways the
lesson for investors to look at today.

434
00:24:13,432 --> 00:24:17,892
The fact that the market that was the
biggest stock market in the world at

435
00:24:17,892 --> 00:24:23,852
the end of 1989, the most celebrated
market in the world, for those who,

436
00:24:23,942 --> 00:24:27,762
who don't remember the 1980s, we
were all being told that we needed

437
00:24:27,762 --> 00:24:29,472
to learn how to speak Japanese.

438
00:24:29,472 --> 00:24:34,042
We were told that the way that our
companies were run was mistaken and that,

439
00:24:34,042 --> 00:24:36,022
we needed to learn from the Japanese.

440
00:24:36,032 --> 00:24:38,652
I mean, at the time, the U.

441
00:24:38,652 --> 00:24:39,132
S.

442
00:24:39,342 --> 00:24:46,002
was seen as a country that was
slipping and the Japan was dominant.

443
00:24:46,052 --> 00:24:51,267
Now, Obviously, history has told us
that's wrong, but for anybody who's

444
00:24:51,267 --> 00:24:53,527
investing today, who thinks that the U.

445
00:24:53,527 --> 00:24:53,697
S.

446
00:24:53,697 --> 00:24:55,717
is dominant and that the U.

447
00:24:55,717 --> 00:24:55,897
S.

448
00:24:55,897 --> 00:25:02,777
way is the way, think about Japan at the
end of 1989 and the way it was viewed and

449
00:25:02,787 --> 00:25:05,807
ask yourself, what if you are wrong...

450
00:25:06,707 --> 00:25:08,447
what if you are wrong...

451
00:25:08,707 --> 00:25:14,412
Because as investors, what we need
to think about is not, only what are

452
00:25:14,412 --> 00:25:18,502
the investment bets we're making,
but what are the consequences if we

453
00:25:18,502 --> 00:25:24,602
are wrong for anybody who owns a U
S only stock market portfolio, what

454
00:25:24,602 --> 00:25:29,462
are the consequences if the U S turns
out to be the next Japan, I think the

455
00:25:29,462 --> 00:25:31,992
chances of it happening are de minimis.

456
00:25:32,082 --> 00:25:35,082
I do think there's a significant
chance the U S market will

457
00:25:35,152 --> 00:25:39,402
underperform the rest of the world
in the decade ahead, but I have.

458
00:25:39,792 --> 00:25:44,422
I don't know, I have no crystal ball,
but what I would say to people is you

459
00:25:44,422 --> 00:25:46,652
need to consider the possibilities.

460
00:25:46,842 --> 00:25:51,932
Consider the possibility that
you are displaying massive home

461
00:25:51,932 --> 00:25:53,592
bias in favoring only the U.

462
00:25:53,592 --> 00:25:53,792
S.

463
00:25:53,812 --> 00:25:54,452
market.

464
00:25:55,012 --> 00:25:57,842
Consider the consequences if
you are wrong and whether it

465
00:25:57,862 --> 00:26:00,012
wouldn't be prudent to diversify.

466
00:26:01,392 --> 00:26:01,602
So

467
00:26:01,602 --> 00:26:06,782
Jonathan, what is your opinion
about other alternative investments?

468
00:26:07,112 --> 00:26:11,762
Such as REITs or gold or Bitcoin
or other things that people invest

469
00:26:11,762 --> 00:26:15,432
in, but they also tend to make
your portfolio more complicated.

470
00:26:16,322 --> 00:26:20,112
I see no reason to own this stuff.

471
00:26:20,112 --> 00:26:22,592
At one point, I did have
REITs in my portfolio.

472
00:26:22,592 --> 00:26:23,612
I no longer do.

473
00:26:23,622 --> 00:26:27,862
At one point, I did have a little
bit of gold stocks in my portfolio.

474
00:26:27,862 --> 00:26:28,842
I no longer do.

475
00:26:29,552 --> 00:26:30,912
how do you diversify stocks?

476
00:26:30,912 --> 00:26:33,222
You diversify stocks by owning bonds.

477
00:26:34,252 --> 00:26:36,942
It's the simplest,
cheapest way to do that.

478
00:26:36,942 --> 00:26:38,912
You don't need all these
alternative assets.

479
00:26:39,282 --> 00:26:42,482
One of the problems with so many
of these alternative investments,

480
00:26:42,552 --> 00:26:46,032
this is not necessarily true of
gold stocks, it's not necessarily

481
00:26:46,032 --> 00:26:52,022
true of REITs, but many alternative
investments involve active management.

482
00:26:52,082 --> 00:26:55,447
And we know When you have
active management, you

483
00:26:55,457 --> 00:26:56,837
have high investment costs.

484
00:26:57,007 --> 00:26:59,887
And when you have high investment
costs, there is a great chance that

485
00:26:59,897 --> 00:27:02,067
you will end up with mediocre returns.

486
00:27:02,367 --> 00:27:06,207
So why not just keep it
simple, diversify globally.

487
00:27:06,927 --> 00:27:10,857
With your stocks and then keep it
super simple and super safe with

488
00:27:10,857 --> 00:27:15,097
your bonds to offset the risk of your
stock, your stock market holdings.

489
00:27:15,347 --> 00:27:19,217
And the way you do that is with
short term high quality bonds.

490
00:27:19,977 --> 00:27:20,657
Now you actually

491
00:27:20,657 --> 00:27:24,497
split it between tips and
short term treasuries.

492
00:27:24,797 --> 00:27:25,587
Why do you do that?

493
00:27:27,617 --> 00:27:32,077
As a bond holder, the biggest
risk is inflation, at least a

494
00:27:32,077 --> 00:27:33,387
holder of high quality bonds.

495
00:27:33,417 --> 00:27:35,977
And we're not talking about, low
quality bonds, junk bonds, but

496
00:27:35,977 --> 00:27:39,627
in terms of high quality bonds,
the number one risk is inflation.

497
00:27:39,887 --> 00:27:44,787
So why not have part of it, hedged
against inflation by favoring tips.

498
00:27:44,797 --> 00:27:46,567
So that's why I split my
money between the two.

499
00:27:47,677 --> 00:27:52,727
And then you also have a particular
interest in paying down a mortgage,

500
00:27:52,747 --> 00:27:56,967
which is counterintuitive,
sort of the popular thought.

501
00:27:57,312 --> 00:28:01,992
Tell us about your thought of the
mortgage as a bond versus, acquiring

502
00:28:01,992 --> 00:28:03,282
more bonds in your portfolio.

503
00:28:04,222 --> 00:28:08,682
So when I bought my first home in
1992, and in fact it was the only

504
00:28:08,682 --> 00:28:12,342
house I ever bought where I took out a
mortgage, I remember getting that first

505
00:28:12,352 --> 00:28:16,242
mortgage payment slip and they had a
little line to add extra principal.

506
00:28:16,532 --> 00:28:20,102
And I remember adding 10 to it and
thinking, hmm, this is interesting,

507
00:28:20,102 --> 00:28:22,562
I can pay off this loan more quickly.

508
00:28:22,912 --> 00:28:25,142
By adding a little bit of
extra principle every month.

509
00:28:25,632 --> 00:28:30,172
As I thought about it more, I came to
realize that paying down a mortgage is

510
00:28:30,172 --> 00:28:38,297
like buying a bond, except at the time, my
mortgage rate was Close to eight percent

511
00:28:38,387 --> 00:28:43,577
and the yield on bonds was below that
So in other words, I could earn a higher

512
00:28:43,577 --> 00:28:48,897
return by paying down my mortgage than I
could by buying bonds So if i'm inclined

513
00:28:48,897 --> 00:28:54,517
to buy bonds, why not pay down my mortgage
instead and that is What I did I ended up,

514
00:28:54,567 --> 00:28:57,632
paying off my Mortgage in a dozen years.

515
00:28:57,832 --> 00:29:02,322
But having said that, Bill,
I'll tell you that I would not

516
00:29:02,322 --> 00:29:03,832
necessarily give that advice today.

517
00:29:03,872 --> 00:29:07,872
And the simple reason is this, a
lot of people at this point have

518
00:29:08,372 --> 00:29:12,422
mortgages where they've locked
in rates of 3 percent or less.

519
00:29:12,927 --> 00:29:17,097
And if you have a mortgage that's in
which you're paying 3% or less, and

520
00:29:17,102 --> 00:29:22,087
you can go out and you can buy bonds
paying five right now, I wouldn't be

521
00:29:22,087 --> 00:29:23,947
inclined to pay down that 3% mortgage.

522
00:29:23,947 --> 00:29:29,662
Instead, I would, buy those 5% bonds,
preferably in a retirement account where

523
00:29:29,662 --> 00:29:32,932
you, you won't have to pay tax each
year on the interest that you earn.

524
00:29:33,222 --> 00:29:36,972
So the advice that I followed back
in the 1990s and the early two

525
00:29:36,972 --> 00:29:40,512
thousands is not necessarily the,
the advice you should follow today.

526
00:29:43,592 --> 00:29:44,382
Let's jump

527
00:29:44,392 --> 00:29:52,092
into your book, how to think about
money and one of the I'd kind of

528
00:29:52,092 --> 00:29:56,322
like to park for a few moments on
what you talked about in chapter

529
00:29:56,322 --> 00:29:58,712
one, which is money and happiness.

530
00:29:59,362 --> 00:30:04,412
And this book is, is truly more of
a money psychology kind of book.

531
00:30:04,902 --> 00:30:08,692
And one of the quotes at the
beginning of the book is from William

532
00:30:08,692 --> 00:30:13,282
Bernstein's mother that says money
doesn't buy you happiness, but at

533
00:30:13,282 --> 00:30:15,272
least you can suffer and comfort.

534
00:30:15,942 --> 00:30:19,132
And you make the comment that
she didn't get it quite right.

535
00:30:19,482 --> 00:30:24,102
That money can buy happiness, but
only if you first save like mad,

536
00:30:24,232 --> 00:30:26,182
then spend those savings with care.

537
00:30:27,152 --> 00:30:27,852
So tell us

538
00:30:27,852 --> 00:30:28,502
about that.

539
00:30:29,052 --> 00:30:33,332
So, Becky, that is from the forward to the
book, which was written by Bill Bernstein.

540
00:30:33,622 --> 00:30:36,302
But I do agree with Bill.

541
00:30:36,572 --> 00:30:39,902
there are essentially
sort of three things.

542
00:30:40,497 --> 00:30:42,297
The money can do for us.

543
00:30:42,607 --> 00:30:47,777
And this goes the sort of definition of
what financial independence is all about.

544
00:30:47,907 --> 00:30:52,597
So the number one thing that money can
do for us is that it can allow us to

545
00:30:52,597 --> 00:30:55,397
control how we use our time, right?

546
00:30:55,637 --> 00:30:59,427
And that is when we have total
control over our time that

547
00:30:59,427 --> 00:31:01,137
that is financial independence.

548
00:31:01,657 --> 00:31:06,732
And so, if you start saving early
in life and you reach that point

549
00:31:06,742 --> 00:31:09,362
where you no longer have to work.

550
00:31:09,382 --> 00:31:12,482
That is what Bill is alluding to there.

551
00:31:12,822 --> 00:31:19,092
Second, by saving diligently early
in life, we can allow ourselves

552
00:31:19,092 --> 00:31:22,822
to have special experiences,
especially with friends and family.

553
00:31:23,232 --> 00:31:25,412
But the third thing that
money can do for us.

554
00:31:26,132 --> 00:31:30,062
And again, this sort of goes to not only
what Bill is talking about, but also what

555
00:31:30,062 --> 00:31:37,632
Bill's mother is talking about is one of
the attributes of having enough money is

556
00:31:37,632 --> 00:31:40,132
that you don't have to worry about money.

557
00:31:40,432 --> 00:31:44,277
And I know it sounds like an An
odd notion, but this is a crucial

558
00:31:44,277 --> 00:31:45,647
part of financial happiness.

559
00:31:45,857 --> 00:31:48,657
Simply not having to worry about money.

560
00:31:48,907 --> 00:31:50,987
the parallel I always
suggest is with health.

561
00:31:51,017 --> 00:31:55,937
It's only when you're sick that you
realize how great it is to feel healthy.

562
00:31:56,187 --> 00:31:58,927
Similarly, it's only when
you don't have money.

563
00:31:59,462 --> 00:32:02,722
that you realize how great it
is to have money in the bank.

564
00:32:03,052 --> 00:32:09,762
The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
did this study of well being in America,

565
00:32:10,442 --> 00:32:18,672
and what they found was the number one
driver of people's sense of well being Is

566
00:32:18,702 --> 00:32:21,342
there access to so called liquid assets?

567
00:32:21,342 --> 00:32:23,672
What we're talking about is
money sitting in the bank.

568
00:32:24,262 --> 00:32:29,092
And if people had less than 250
in the bank, they were miserable.

569
00:32:29,222 --> 00:32:32,782
And if they managed to
amass 5, 000 or more.

570
00:32:33,297 --> 00:32:38,007
In the bank, they were
significantly happier, had a

571
00:32:38,357 --> 00:32:40,187
far greater sense of well being.

572
00:32:40,507 --> 00:32:46,977
So in terms of happiness and
what money can buy, simply having

573
00:32:46,977 --> 00:32:51,117
money buys happiness because we
don't have to worry about it.

574
00:32:52,417 --> 00:32:53,027
People talk a lot

575
00:32:53,027 --> 00:32:57,537
about income and a level of income
at which you realize happiness.

576
00:32:57,587 --> 00:33:00,327
Back in the day, it was 75, 000.

577
00:33:00,327 --> 00:33:02,597
Today, it might be 90, 000.

578
00:33:03,147 --> 00:33:04,967
Is that really the way to think of it?

579
00:33:05,057 --> 00:33:06,307
And what is the number today?

580
00:33:06,527 --> 00:33:10,117
But is it better to think of it
in terms of what is your spending?

581
00:33:10,117 --> 00:33:11,987
What is the happiness spending level?

582
00:33:12,137 --> 00:33:12,587
What do you think?

583
00:33:13,622 --> 00:33:19,522
So first of all, that original study,
which was by Danny Kahneman and Angus

584
00:33:19,552 --> 00:33:23,662
Deaton, which conducted about 10
years ago, has since been revisited

585
00:33:24,092 --> 00:33:29,472
and that cap of 75, 000, which, as
you suggest, might be 100, 000 today

586
00:33:29,832 --> 00:33:31,452
in the new research disappears.

587
00:33:31,742 --> 00:33:33,452
It seems that happiness...

588
00:33:33,952 --> 00:33:40,092
typically right, continues to rise with
income level, but not at the same rate.

589
00:33:40,102 --> 00:33:43,342
So it takes more and more
money to boost your happiness.

590
00:33:43,622 --> 00:33:47,542
But on average, it does tend
to rise along with income.

591
00:33:47,782 --> 00:33:54,387
But, of course, as you suggest,
Bill, If your needs outstrip your

592
00:33:54,387 --> 00:33:58,137
income, no matter what your income is,
you're going to be miserable, right?

593
00:33:58,237 --> 00:34:01,047
There's, there's nothing worse than
spending money you can't afford

594
00:34:01,067 --> 00:34:05,467
to spend and then sitting around
worrying about, how you're going to

595
00:34:05,617 --> 00:34:09,737
pay the credit card bill or the loan
or whatever it is you, you borrowed

596
00:34:09,737 --> 00:34:12,307
in order to Buy this, this good.

597
00:34:12,537 --> 00:34:16,427
So sitting on your luxury lot or
yacht worrying about how you're

598
00:34:16,427 --> 00:34:19,857
going to pay the loan on the yacht is
not going to be a happy experience.

599
00:34:20,407 --> 00:34:25,177
So yes, having more income helps,
but if your wants and needs grow

600
00:34:25,177 --> 00:34:26,907
even faster, you got a problem.

601
00:34:27,752 --> 00:34:27,832
Well,

602
00:34:27,832 --> 00:34:31,822
that's interesting because both
Becky and I have a boat story.

603
00:34:33,692 --> 00:34:39,442
The very first episode of our show
is a boat called YOLO, and I actually

604
00:34:39,982 --> 00:34:45,132
had a boat about seven, eight years
ago that was named YOLO and that

605
00:34:45,192 --> 00:34:47,952
embodied my philosophy on money.

606
00:34:47,952 --> 00:34:51,332
And shortly thereafter, we turned
it around, sold the boat, downsized

607
00:34:51,362 --> 00:34:53,782
the house and downsized our life.

608
00:34:53,822 --> 00:34:55,182
Becky, what was your boat story?

609
00:34:55,202 --> 00:34:56,492
Remind us a little bit, please.

610
00:34:56,702 --> 00:34:57,092
Well,

611
00:34:57,102 --> 00:34:59,322
my boat story actually
is different than yours.

612
00:34:59,322 --> 00:35:02,022
We, we truly, truly enjoyed our boat.

613
00:35:02,032 --> 00:35:06,732
It was a big part of who we were and
in our life at that point in time, we

614
00:35:06,732 --> 00:35:08,832
spent lots of time on our sailboat.

615
00:35:09,342 --> 00:35:11,712
We, we raced our sailboat.

616
00:35:12,347 --> 00:35:15,367
So it was, it was just
something that we love to do.

617
00:35:15,457 --> 00:35:19,927
And I wish I could go back and do
it again, but what the mistake that

618
00:35:19,927 --> 00:35:24,587
we made was how we purchased it,
how much money we sunk into it.

619
00:35:24,657 --> 00:35:28,017
We could have done it a much better way.

620
00:35:28,277 --> 00:35:33,427
But and, and, that brings me to a question
that I wanted to ask you Jonathan.

621
00:35:34,067 --> 00:35:37,997
I mean, I think most of us the first
thought that comes to us is, well, of

622
00:35:37,997 --> 00:35:42,407
course, if we had more money, we would be
happier, but it doesn't always turn out

623
00:35:42,407 --> 00:35:48,817
that way because sometimes we, we really
can't even figure out what makes us happy.

624
00:35:49,117 --> 00:35:51,147
And I know you address that in the book.

625
00:35:51,157 --> 00:35:52,897
Could you comment on that for

626
00:35:52,897 --> 00:35:53,217
us?

627
00:35:54,067 --> 00:35:59,287
Yeah, there's this notion among
psychologists saying that we miss want,

628
00:35:59,407 --> 00:36:04,297
we imagine that we want something and
then, when we get it, it turns out

629
00:36:04,307 --> 00:36:06,737
that we're, we're deeply disappointed.

630
00:36:06,747 --> 00:36:12,447
We strive, for months, weeks,
even years after some particular

631
00:36:12,747 --> 00:36:17,897
thing, a promotion, a pay raise,
something that we want to buy.

632
00:36:17,927 --> 00:36:22,117
And then when we finally get it, there
may be some initial thrill, but then,

633
00:36:22,857 --> 00:36:25,177
the thrill fades all too quickly.

634
00:36:25,177 --> 00:36:29,157
This is this notion of hedonic
adaptation or the hedonic treadmill.

635
00:36:29,687 --> 00:36:34,107
So yes, before we go out and we spend
our dollars or we devote our time to

636
00:36:34,107 --> 00:36:37,557
pursuing something that we think is
going to make us happy, it's really

637
00:36:37,557 --> 00:36:41,607
worth thinking hard about whether
this is something that we truly want.

638
00:36:41,607 --> 00:36:45,647
Now, truth be told, we
may still get it wrong.

639
00:36:46,067 --> 00:36:49,997
But it's one of the reasons that I
encourage people to create wishlists,

640
00:36:50,287 --> 00:36:53,627
create a wishlist of all the things
that you would like to do, or you

641
00:36:53,627 --> 00:36:57,487
would like to buy, you would like to
achieve with your life, put it up on

642
00:36:57,487 --> 00:36:59,707
the refrigerator and then reflect on it.

643
00:37:00,357 --> 00:37:04,967
And with the reflection, you may
discover that something you truly

644
00:37:04,967 --> 00:37:08,867
wanted is not necessarily something
that's going to make you happy.

645
00:37:09,247 --> 00:37:13,157
But yeah, I think people spend
their entire lives pursuing things

646
00:37:13,187 --> 00:37:17,427
they think are going to make them
happy and end up being big whoop.

647
00:37:19,202 --> 00:37:22,842
Well, you say something in the book,
which is the great conundrum, and it

648
00:37:22,872 --> 00:37:27,042
sort of reminds us a little bit about
happiness, quote, we have twice as

649
00:37:27,042 --> 00:37:30,032
much to spend as we had 42 years ago.

650
00:37:30,542 --> 00:37:34,272
But our reported level of happiness is
no higher, and our satisfaction with our

651
00:37:34,272 --> 00:37:37,572
financial situation has actually declined.

652
00:37:38,392 --> 00:37:40,522
What should we spend our money on?

653
00:37:41,122 --> 00:37:43,002
What are the things that do make us happy?

654
00:37:44,182 --> 00:37:48,732
So, first of all, the great conundrum,
is otherwise known as the Easterlin

655
00:37:48,752 --> 00:37:54,482
paradox is named after Dick Easterlin,
who is an economics professor at

656
00:37:54,842 --> 00:38:00,707
University of Southern California and
Dick actually sort of Discovered what's

657
00:38:00,707 --> 00:38:07,517
now known as the Eastland Paradox back
in 1974, he saw that, income in America

658
00:38:07,527 --> 00:38:11,217
and elsewhere in the world had risen
dramatically and yet reported levels

659
00:38:11,217 --> 00:38:17,522
of happiness had not increased, we had
more money and yet we Felt no better.

660
00:38:17,912 --> 00:38:22,392
And the reason that Dick identified
is that we care not so much about

661
00:38:22,392 --> 00:38:28,192
our absolute standard of living, but
about how we compare to other people.

662
00:38:28,452 --> 00:38:31,592
And of course, what has happened
over time, even as, the typical

663
00:38:31,592 --> 00:38:35,322
person earns more, is there are other
people who are earning even more.

664
00:38:35,792 --> 00:38:39,972
And so our relative situation
has not necessarily changed.

665
00:38:40,372 --> 00:38:44,592
And even that actually raises this issue,
which is when you ask people whether

666
00:38:44,592 --> 00:38:48,822
they're happy and go back to that study
about income and happiness and how people

667
00:38:48,822 --> 00:38:52,832
with more income tend to say they're
happier, one of the things that goes on

668
00:38:52,832 --> 00:38:57,002
is it's a so called focusing illusion,
which is when we're asked, are we happy?

669
00:38:57,002 --> 00:39:00,862
We tend to think about our economic
circumstances and we think about how

670
00:39:00,872 --> 00:39:04,512
we're doing relative to Those around us.

671
00:39:04,752 --> 00:39:07,122
And if we're doing relatively
well, it prompts us to say

672
00:39:07,122 --> 00:39:10,062
we're happy, but it doesn't
necessarily mean that we are happy.

673
00:39:10,062 --> 00:39:13,872
It's just in that moment when
we reflect upon it and we think

674
00:39:13,872 --> 00:39:17,382
about our fortunate position,
we're inclined to say we're happy.

675
00:39:17,762 --> 00:39:20,643
So what is it that does make us happy?

676
00:39:21,482 --> 00:39:24,772
Well, there are a few things
that have been identified.

677
00:39:24,772 --> 00:39:27,062
One of the things we've already
talked about, having this sense of

678
00:39:27,062 --> 00:39:29,252
financial security, having enough.

679
00:39:29,717 --> 00:39:32,277
So that we don't worry about how
we're going to pay the bills.

680
00:39:32,337 --> 00:39:34,287
That can be a huge source of happiness.

681
00:39:35,347 --> 00:39:39,367
As many people have now heard, we tend
to be happy when we spend our money

682
00:39:39,447 --> 00:39:41,987
on experiences rather than things.

683
00:39:42,227 --> 00:39:45,637
if you want to get, more happiness
out of your dollars, don't

684
00:39:45,637 --> 00:39:47,357
go and buy the fancy new car.

685
00:39:47,357 --> 00:39:49,037
Instead, take the family to Paris.

686
00:39:49,472 --> 00:39:53,662
That, the research tells us
will tend to make us happy.

687
00:39:54,132 --> 00:39:59,362
And then the third, talking about taking
the family somewhere, is having a robust

688
00:39:59,362 --> 00:40:04,332
network of friends and family tends to
be associated not only with improved

689
00:40:04,382 --> 00:40:06,772
health, but also with greater happiness.

690
00:40:07,152 --> 00:40:12,552
So, yeah, if you want a playbook for
happiness, one, work on your network of

691
00:40:12,662 --> 00:40:18,972
friends, two, spend on experiences rather
than on possessions, and three, make sure

692
00:40:18,972 --> 00:40:24,282
you manage your money in a way that you
have a sense of financial security and

693
00:40:24,282 --> 00:40:26,912
don't have to worry about money too much.

694
00:40:27,772 --> 00:40:27,902
Yeah,

695
00:40:27,902 --> 00:40:29,252
it's nice to combine those.

696
00:40:30,062 --> 00:40:33,442
We're now planning in
anticipation of a big trip.

697
00:40:33,452 --> 00:40:35,192
My wife turns 60 next year.

698
00:40:35,637 --> 00:40:40,027
And one of our life goals was to go
with friends and family to Israel

699
00:40:40,027 --> 00:40:44,887
and Jordan and experience that with
friends so you can combine these

700
00:40:44,917 --> 00:40:48,887
things and I think there's actually a
compounding involved there where you can,

701
00:40:49,127 --> 00:40:53,827
exponentially increase your happiness
by spending money intentionally on

702
00:40:53,837 --> 00:40:58,287
those things that involve other people
and involve experiences that can be

703
00:40:58,697 --> 00:41:02,197
really Thanks impressive in some ways.

704
00:41:02,197 --> 00:41:03,607
It doesn't have to be Israel Jordan.

705
00:41:03,617 --> 00:41:05,297
It can be to a national park.

706
00:41:05,307 --> 00:41:07,087
It can be a driving trip.

707
00:41:07,097 --> 00:41:12,087
It doesn't have to be an expensive trip,
but we're really looking forward to it.

708
00:41:12,107 --> 00:41:14,257
And the anticipation of it makes us happy.

709
00:41:15,707 --> 00:41:16,117
And I think

710
00:41:16,117 --> 00:41:19,867
that's actually hit on a key
concept, which is anticipation.

711
00:41:20,307 --> 00:41:24,797
So, when we think about, the
trips that we're going to take

712
00:41:25,157 --> 00:41:27,177
we think about a lot of trips.

713
00:41:27,217 --> 00:41:32,257
we go on YouTube and, look
at videos of different places

714
00:41:32,257 --> 00:41:33,607
that we might go and visit.

715
00:41:33,887 --> 00:41:37,127
We have a list of places
that we want to consider.

716
00:41:37,367 --> 00:41:38,587
And the consequences is...

717
00:41:38,892 --> 00:41:42,742
That before we spend a single
dime, we've gone on all kinds of

718
00:41:42,742 --> 00:41:48,122
trips in our head and, they are
totally free and hugely enjoyable.

719
00:41:48,122 --> 00:41:51,062
And you don't even have to worry
about taking your passport with you.

720
00:41:52,202 --> 00:41:54,832
Eventually, of course you do
settle on where you're going to go.

721
00:41:54,922 --> 00:41:59,172
And when you settle on it, you should
try to settle on it months ahead of time.

722
00:41:59,172 --> 00:42:01,822
So you have months of eager anticipation.

723
00:42:02,422 --> 00:42:06,502
And in many cases, that
anticipation will turn out to

724
00:42:06,502 --> 00:42:08,222
be better than the actual trip.

725
00:42:08,367 --> 00:42:13,277
I mean, because, you could imagine all
kinds of wonderful things about this

726
00:42:13,287 --> 00:42:17,332
trip, but once you actually start on the
trip, there'll be things will go wrong.

727
00:42:17,342 --> 00:42:18,882
You will have a bad day.

728
00:42:18,892 --> 00:42:22,692
You will eat too much one evening,
whatever it is, it will not be

729
00:42:22,692 --> 00:42:24,352
as perfect as it is in your head.

730
00:42:24,362 --> 00:42:28,142
It doesn't mean you shouldn't
do it, but you may discover in

731
00:42:28,142 --> 00:42:31,012
retrospect that the anticipation
was the best part of the trip.

732
00:42:33,137 --> 00:42:35,707
Jonathan, you say a couple of
things in your book that really

733
00:42:35,707 --> 00:42:40,127
intrigued me that and talking about
what we should spend our money on.

734
00:42:40,387 --> 00:42:44,927
And you say that spending money on others,
along with the experiences that you just

735
00:42:44,927 --> 00:42:49,797
mentioned, to sometimes delivers greater
happiness than spending it on ourselves.

736
00:42:50,077 --> 00:42:51,267
And then the second point.

737
00:42:51,367 --> 00:42:57,027
Was we're often happier when we have
less choice not more choice and both

738
00:42:57,027 --> 00:43:02,177
of those things seem counterintuitive
But I know i've experienced,

739
00:43:02,227 --> 00:43:04,167
the joy of spending money on

740
00:43:04,197 --> 00:43:09,147
others Yeah, no, it certainly is
counterintuitive becky, but it is true.

741
00:43:09,147 --> 00:43:17,537
I mean if you sit down and you
Donate to a charity right after you

742
00:43:17,537 --> 00:43:19,117
finish listening to this podcast.

743
00:43:20,977 --> 00:43:24,727
I can almost guarantee that you
will feel the glow of having made

744
00:43:24,737 --> 00:43:27,077
that donation for days to come.

745
00:43:27,347 --> 00:43:32,467
Whereas if you took that same amount
of money and you went on line and you

746
00:43:32,467 --> 00:43:36,527
bought something for yourself, you
wouldn't feel nearly as great a glow.

747
00:43:37,127 --> 00:43:39,347
It's just being generous with others.

748
00:43:39,872 --> 00:43:44,572
gives us a kick in a way that spending
on money on ourselves does not.

749
00:43:44,772 --> 00:43:47,442
So, generosity is a wonderful thing.

750
00:43:47,452 --> 00:43:51,852
And I would encourage people to do it,
not because it's the right thing to do,

751
00:43:51,862 --> 00:43:56,652
not because you will help others, but
because you will make yourself happier.

752
00:43:58,042 --> 00:43:59,362
And then second, yes.

753
00:43:59,997 --> 00:44:03,887
Less choice can make us happier.

754
00:44:03,987 --> 00:44:07,347
If you have too much choice, then
you're faced with great uncertainty.

755
00:44:07,347 --> 00:44:07,927
You just don't know.

756
00:44:07,927 --> 00:44:11,447
Should I pick this color for the
bedroom or that color for the bedroom?

757
00:44:12,347 --> 00:44:16,547
One of the things that you can do
is to narrow your choice so that.

758
00:44:16,857 --> 00:44:22,317
there is less to agonize over one of
the ways I restrict choice for myself

759
00:44:22,347 --> 00:44:26,367
is I only buy funds from Vanguard.

760
00:44:27,627 --> 00:44:32,267
if I sat there and said, I can buy
any stock I want, I can buy any mutual

761
00:44:32,267 --> 00:44:36,377
fund I want, any exchange traded fund
I want, I can buy anything from anybody

762
00:44:36,387 --> 00:44:38,207
I want for my investment portfolio.

763
00:44:38,677 --> 00:44:40,217
it would be confounding.

764
00:44:40,237 --> 00:44:42,567
I would just be drowning in this choice.

765
00:44:42,597 --> 00:44:46,047
But what I do is I say, I'm only
going to buy funds from Vanguard.

766
00:44:46,047 --> 00:44:48,487
In fact, I'm only going to
buy index funds from Vanguard.

767
00:44:48,997 --> 00:44:52,907
And I thereby limit my choice and
suddenly becomes a whole lot easier.

768
00:44:53,717 --> 00:44:54,787
I do the same thing.

769
00:44:54,787 --> 00:44:56,727
And I have a funny story about choice.

770
00:44:57,237 --> 00:44:59,487
We were looking to paint our house.

771
00:45:00,187 --> 00:45:03,397
And my wife got overwhelmed with choice.

772
00:45:03,417 --> 00:45:08,737
We lived with I don't know, 20
samples on the walls for months.

773
00:45:09,277 --> 00:45:11,797
It was driving me crazy.

774
00:45:12,037 --> 00:45:15,577
And as you mentioned, it is important
to limit choice because when I

775
00:45:15,577 --> 00:45:19,377
initially went down the rabbit hole of
investing, I made it very complicated.

776
00:45:19,667 --> 00:45:23,157
I didn't know to make it simple
and the thousands of choices

777
00:45:23,157 --> 00:45:24,987
that you have are overwhelming.

778
00:45:24,997 --> 00:45:27,207
It leads to analysis paralysis.

779
00:45:27,587 --> 00:45:29,847
And I too use just Vanguard.

780
00:45:30,097 --> 00:45:33,137
I too have been simplifying my portfolio.

781
00:45:33,457 --> 00:45:34,027
It's just.

782
00:45:34,447 --> 00:45:35,097
easier.

783
00:45:35,127 --> 00:45:36,467
It gives you more peace of mind.

784
00:45:36,477 --> 00:45:38,097
It makes you happier.

785
00:45:38,407 --> 00:45:42,894
And then as a secondary thing, I'm
the CFO of our family and my wife

786
00:45:42,944 --> 00:45:46,014
has the big picture, but she's not
as involved in the small picture.

787
00:45:46,334 --> 00:45:48,074
And I want to make it simpler for her.

788
00:45:48,514 --> 00:45:49,634
Should I pass away?

789
00:45:49,874 --> 00:45:52,314
It's got to be easy for that other person.

790
00:45:52,924 --> 00:45:55,104
Otherwise you haven't taken care.

791
00:45:55,739 --> 00:45:58,929
Of your future and your future
self and the future self of

792
00:45:58,929 --> 00:46:00,369
your spouse or your partner.

793
00:46:01,139 --> 00:46:06,519
So when we think about managing money, we
all immediately think about investments

794
00:46:06,979 --> 00:46:08,839
and our investment portfolio and so on.

795
00:46:09,059 --> 00:46:13,419
But in fact, this is the thing that we
should spend the least amount of time on.

796
00:46:13,639 --> 00:46:14,029
there is.

797
00:46:15,219 --> 00:46:19,209
the more time we spend on investing,
the more damage we're likely to end up

798
00:46:19,209 --> 00:46:22,989
doing what we should do is just find
a couple of simple funds, settle on

799
00:46:22,989 --> 00:46:27,779
them, and then move on because there
are three other areas of our financial

800
00:46:27,779 --> 00:46:34,319
life where we can spend time and get
a much higher return for our money.

801
00:46:34,569 --> 00:46:37,019
So when I think about the
financial world, there's.

802
00:46:37,279 --> 00:46:42,249
One, investing, then two, there's all
these other aspects of personal finance,

803
00:46:42,299 --> 00:46:44,479
what sort of house should you buy?

804
00:46:44,569 --> 00:46:46,599
What insurance should you have?

805
00:46:46,819 --> 00:46:49,319
When should you claim social security?

806
00:46:49,499 --> 00:46:51,779
what sort of estate planning
documents you should have?

807
00:46:52,009 --> 00:46:55,549
These are areas of the financial
world that never get covered on

808
00:46:56,439 --> 00:47:00,254
CNBC, the need for The people don't
tend to think about because they are

809
00:47:00,254 --> 00:47:05,584
so distracted by the whiny demands
of the financial markets each day.

810
00:47:05,694 --> 00:47:10,734
And yet, these are areas are financial
life where we can add enormous

811
00:47:10,734 --> 00:47:12,874
amounts of value by spending time.

812
00:47:12,994 --> 00:47:15,784
So that's the second area
of your financial life.

813
00:47:15,794 --> 00:47:16,924
First is investing.

814
00:47:16,934 --> 00:47:19,889
Then there's sort of All these
areas of personal finance.

815
00:47:20,279 --> 00:47:27,409
Then there's this whole area of money and
meaning, how can we get, greater happiness

816
00:47:27,449 --> 00:47:29,089
out of the dollars that we spend?

817
00:47:29,099 --> 00:47:32,039
How can we structure our life
so that we're more satisfied?

818
00:47:32,039 --> 00:47:35,009
What do we mean by terms like
enough, the sort of stuff that

819
00:47:35,009 --> 00:47:38,819
we've been talking about today in
the podcast, and then the fourth.

820
00:47:39,929 --> 00:47:43,089
Area that we need to focus
on is behavior change change.

821
00:47:43,099 --> 00:47:46,919
How do we get ourselves to do the
things that we know are right?

822
00:47:46,929 --> 00:47:54,169
I mean, we all know that we should, eat
less exercise more, save more, trade less.

823
00:47:54,189 --> 00:47:57,389
These are all things that
we know are good for us.

824
00:47:57,419 --> 00:47:57,989
And yet.

825
00:47:58,834 --> 00:48:02,584
Every fiber of our being is
saying, Oh, let's do another trade.

826
00:48:02,644 --> 00:48:04,384
Oh, let's have another hamburger.

827
00:48:04,524 --> 00:48:07,384
Oh, let's stay in bed rather
than exercise and so on.

828
00:48:07,734 --> 00:48:13,554
So, we need to work on changing our,
our own behavior and avoiding all these

829
00:48:13,554 --> 00:48:16,044
behavioral pitfalls that surround us.

830
00:48:16,374 --> 00:48:19,754
So when you look at that spectrum
of things, investing Broader

831
00:48:19,754 --> 00:48:23,574
personal finance, money in
meaning and then behavior change.

832
00:48:23,574 --> 00:48:25,764
And you say, where should
you focus your attention?

833
00:48:26,114 --> 00:48:29,764
The first one, investing your
portfolio, whether you should add

834
00:48:29,764 --> 00:48:32,514
a little bit of gold, whether you
should have 2 percent more or less

835
00:48:32,514 --> 00:48:34,604
in stocks, forget all of that.

836
00:48:34,614 --> 00:48:37,434
You're just wasting your time and
you're probably going to get it wrong.

837
00:48:37,974 --> 00:48:42,634
So get a simple portfolio and then
take the time that you free up and

838
00:48:42,634 --> 00:48:45,494
either go and do something fun with
your life or focus on these other

839
00:48:45,494 --> 00:48:48,654
three areas of your financial life
where you really can add value.

840
00:48:50,324 --> 00:48:51,374
I love that.

841
00:48:51,414 --> 00:48:51,944
I love that.

842
00:48:51,954 --> 00:48:57,274
And in fact, just recently Bill and I were
talking about having some future episodes

843
00:48:57,274 --> 00:49:02,454
where we address the second part that
you were talking about, the insurance,

844
00:49:02,494 --> 00:49:08,179
the estate documents, all those things,
because we spend our lifetime amassing our

845
00:49:08,179 --> 00:49:14,029
wealth for our future, but yet sometimes
we ignore all these other pieces that

846
00:49:14,219 --> 00:49:16,459
what I like to call the safety net.

847
00:49:16,799 --> 00:49:20,949
these are the things that are going to
protect the wealth that we've created.

848
00:49:21,549 --> 00:49:24,719
And, and I think those
things are very important.

849
00:49:24,769 --> 00:49:28,569
And then that last one about
how to change our behavior.

850
00:49:28,959 --> 00:49:33,529
So tell me, have you got some suggestions
about how we change that behavior?

851
00:49:34,624 --> 00:49:36,634
Behavior change is really tough.

852
00:49:36,854 --> 00:49:42,104
I think one of the most effective
things that you can do is just

853
00:49:42,114 --> 00:49:45,574
to tell other people what you're,
you're, you want to do, right?

854
00:49:45,574 --> 00:49:47,884
Accountability partner,
the accountability.

855
00:49:47,894 --> 00:49:49,684
It's, it's huge, right?

856
00:49:50,044 --> 00:49:54,704
If you, Tell yourself that,
you're going to lose 10 pounds.

857
00:49:55,164 --> 00:49:59,424
You're going to keep right on eating,
but if you tell all your friends, your

858
00:49:59,434 --> 00:50:02,604
family, your partner, whoever it is
that you're going to lose 10 pounds,

859
00:50:03,094 --> 00:50:06,424
suddenly you're on the hook because
if you don't lose those 10 pounds,

860
00:50:06,434 --> 00:50:08,364
you're going to feel awfully sheepish.

861
00:50:08,874 --> 00:50:12,504
And the same thing goes for other
parts of your financial life.

862
00:50:12,884 --> 00:50:18,414
No, if you've got a lot of credit
card debt, tell people, I've got 20,

863
00:50:18,414 --> 00:50:20,374
000 in credit card debt and my goal.

864
00:50:20,729 --> 00:50:23,889
A year from now is to tell you
that I've got this paid off.

865
00:50:24,304 --> 00:50:27,374
And if you do that, you are
much more likely to act.

866
00:50:28,124 --> 00:50:31,644
So, yeah, I think the making
public commitments is a huge

867
00:50:31,644 --> 00:50:33,694
deal and is very, very effective.

868
00:50:34,394 --> 00:50:37,324
Actually, that's one of the things
that we're proud of in our community.

869
00:50:37,784 --> 00:50:42,144
We, talk about people's goals every week,
and we ask if they've accomplished them.

870
00:50:42,154 --> 00:50:45,334
And there's a lot of
interaction in that regard.

871
00:50:45,334 --> 00:50:50,024
And people find it very encouraging
to watch other people's success.

872
00:50:52,169 --> 00:50:55,759
So in your second chapter, let's
move on a little bit so we can

873
00:50:56,049 --> 00:50:57,259
get a little bit down the road.

874
00:50:57,689 --> 00:51:00,379
You talk about living a long life.

875
00:51:00,899 --> 00:51:03,789
Talk us through some of the
financial impacts of living a long

876
00:51:03,799 --> 00:51:04,379
life, please.

877
00:51:05,509 --> 00:51:11,329
Well, there are the obvious things, Bill
if you're going to live a long life,

878
00:51:11,359 --> 00:51:16,639
then you should be open to things like
delaying social security, should be open

879
00:51:16,639 --> 00:51:22,729
to things like annuitizing part of your
money, upon retirement so that you, you

880
00:51:22,739 --> 00:51:26,819
have income for as long as you live,
you should be committed to the stock

881
00:51:26,819 --> 00:51:31,999
market because it's, one of the few
ways where you can get better than stock

882
00:51:32,209 --> 00:51:34,379
inflation returns over the long haul.

883
00:51:35,044 --> 00:51:38,884
But, it also goes the way we
conduct the rest of our life.

884
00:51:39,224 --> 00:51:42,684
one of the things that many folks
discover is that they will need

885
00:51:42,704 --> 00:51:47,024
more than one career in order to
get through their working years.

886
00:51:47,484 --> 00:51:53,504
And so, you want to build some
flexibility into your financial life.

887
00:51:53,884 --> 00:51:58,454
So that perhaps in your forties, when
you hit that midlife crisis and you

888
00:51:58,464 --> 00:52:03,424
realize that you are Sick of living
in a cubicle and you want to go off

889
00:52:03,424 --> 00:52:07,674
and do something else that you have
the financial flexibility to do that.

890
00:52:08,889 --> 00:52:12,939
So a long life and the prospect of
spending decades and decades in the

891
00:52:12,949 --> 00:52:18,349
workforce leads to have a whole bunch
of implications, not just about what to

892
00:52:18,349 --> 00:52:22,379
do once you reach retirement, but also
what you do on the way to retirement.

893
00:52:25,049 --> 00:52:25,999
I think we have,

894
00:52:26,069 --> 00:52:32,049
you know, as life expectancy extends,
then, as you said, we can spend decades

895
00:52:32,629 --> 00:52:37,129
in our working career, but then we can
also have the, we have the possibility

896
00:52:37,129 --> 00:52:39,139
of spending decades in retirement.

897
00:52:39,959 --> 00:52:45,069
And so, I mean, the planning for that
is something that is really important.

898
00:52:45,099 --> 00:52:50,249
And in fact, in last week's
episode with Mark Troutman, we

899
00:52:50,249 --> 00:52:51,789
talked about some different.

900
00:52:52,364 --> 00:52:54,684
Processes that you can
go through for that.

901
00:52:54,924 --> 00:52:59,104
And, I like your idea about really
thinking about when you're going to take

902
00:52:59,104 --> 00:53:04,464
Social Security and whether or not you
want to annuitize part of your assets,

903
00:53:04,464 --> 00:53:08,964
because that is, that's like buying and
my understanding, if I'm correct, that's

904
00:53:08,964 --> 00:53:12,214
like almost buying another pension,
because most people these days don't have

905
00:53:12,214 --> 00:53:17,854
a pension and So if you annuitize some of
your assets, then you've bought yourself

906
00:53:17,854 --> 00:53:20,954
some lifetime income, which I really love

907
00:53:20,994 --> 00:53:21,434
that.

908
00:53:22,354 --> 00:53:25,854
Well, you talk also about in retirement,
there's a great quote in your book.

909
00:53:26,304 --> 00:53:30,554
There's a reason the world's gardens are
full of benches that no one ever sits on.

910
00:53:31,269 --> 00:53:34,059
We are distant relatives or
hunter gatherer ancestors.

911
00:53:34,059 --> 00:53:37,809
And you talk a lot about this and
the mindset that leads us down the

912
00:53:37,809 --> 00:53:41,859
road of biases and how we handle
our finances, but we are not built

913
00:53:41,879 --> 00:53:43,839
for leisure or built to relax.

914
00:53:44,169 --> 00:53:47,909
We talk a lot about how do you spend
the last two or three decades of your

915
00:53:47,909 --> 00:53:51,599
life after you become financially
free, the soft sides of retirement.

916
00:53:51,639 --> 00:53:54,649
We talked about with Fritz Gilbert,
then the retirement manifesto.

917
00:53:55,424 --> 00:54:01,574
So tell me a little bit about your
focus on the hunter gatherer ancestors

918
00:54:01,824 --> 00:54:04,864
and how they play a role in our

919
00:54:04,864 --> 00:54:05,704
financial lives.

920
00:54:07,724 --> 00:54:10,714
So let me, let me take
this in two parts, Bill.

921
00:54:10,794 --> 00:54:17,344
So just to come back to retirement and
our restlessness As we prepare financially

922
00:54:17,344 --> 00:54:21,014
for retirement, and a propo of what Becky
was saying, we think about things like

923
00:54:21,014 --> 00:54:24,334
delaying social security, and we think
about things like annuitizing, so we

924
00:54:24,334 --> 00:54:28,374
prepare financially for retirement, we
also need to think about what it is that

925
00:54:28,374 --> 00:54:29,664
we're going to do with all this time.

926
00:54:30,004 --> 00:54:35,614
Because if you retire, And your notion
is that, you're going to sit around and

927
00:54:35,614 --> 00:54:38,184
relax for the final decades of your life.

928
00:54:39,064 --> 00:54:42,054
I can almost guarantee you
that you will be miserable.

929
00:54:43,224 --> 00:54:48,724
We are not built to sit on the
couch eating cheese doodles and

930
00:54:48,794 --> 00:54:51,104
binging Netflix for decades on end.

931
00:54:51,114 --> 00:54:53,524
It is simply not going to work for you.

932
00:54:53,774 --> 00:54:56,804
You need to have things in retirement.

933
00:54:57,079 --> 00:55:00,219
That you want to do, that you are
passionate about, that you find

934
00:55:00,219 --> 00:55:04,039
fulfilling, that you find challenging,
that you think are important, that

935
00:55:04,039 --> 00:55:05,819
you think will help the world.

936
00:55:06,009 --> 00:55:10,119
Because if you don't have those things,
then you will have a meaningless

937
00:55:10,119 --> 00:55:13,739
retirement and a meaningless retirement
will be an unhappy retirement.

938
00:55:14,079 --> 00:55:17,259
So everybody, even as they prepare
financially for retirement, should

939
00:55:17,309 --> 00:55:20,614
be thinking about What it is that
I'm going to do in retirement.

940
00:55:20,614 --> 00:55:22,864
That's going to get me
out of bed in the morning.

941
00:55:23,144 --> 00:55:27,044
And I think one of the things
that leads us to is the notion

942
00:55:27,054 --> 00:55:30,874
that this distinction between work
and retirement is sort of absurd.

943
00:55:30,934 --> 00:55:35,694
the idea that we work like dogs
for 40 years and then we stop

944
00:55:35,694 --> 00:55:39,264
and we do nothing for the final
decades of our life is ridiculous.

945
00:55:39,644 --> 00:55:43,564
what I hope will evolve towards
is something where people

946
00:55:44,024 --> 00:55:46,064
ease out of the workforce.

947
00:55:46,194 --> 00:55:51,594
they do things that may pay them, may
not pay them, but where they continue

948
00:55:51,594 --> 00:55:56,164
to have things to do that they feel
are important and that are important

949
00:55:56,164 --> 00:56:00,949
to society, at least a few days each
week, we, we can't afford to have

950
00:56:00,949 --> 00:56:05,509
a huge portions of the population
sitting down around doing nothing.

951
00:56:06,209 --> 00:56:08,919
And it's not good for them to
be sitting around doing nothing.

952
00:56:08,929 --> 00:56:14,139
And, thanks to progress in technology and
so on, it's very possible for people to

953
00:56:14,149 --> 00:56:18,359
work a couple of days a week for many,
it could solve the financial puzzle

954
00:56:18,359 --> 00:56:22,519
of retirement and make retirement much
more affordable, even as it gives them a

955
00:56:22,519 --> 00:56:25,169
sense of purpose for those final decades.

956
00:56:25,619 --> 00:56:30,219
So, yeah, this distinction between
work and retirement needs to disappear.

957
00:56:30,339 --> 00:56:34,979
And one of the reasons is because
of this restlessness that we have.

958
00:56:35,319 --> 00:56:39,339
that we got from our hunter gatherer
ancestors, this sense that, we're never

959
00:56:39,339 --> 00:56:43,699
satisfied, we never reach the point where
we say, I've done enough, I have enough.

960
00:56:44,079 --> 00:56:47,229
we will never reach the point
where we say to ourselves, I've

961
00:56:47,229 --> 00:56:48,759
done enough, and I have enough.

962
00:56:49,319 --> 00:56:52,639
We will always, in some
sense, want to have more.

963
00:56:52,879 --> 00:56:54,559
What we want to do is be thoughtful.

964
00:56:55,244 --> 00:57:00,124
In the ways that we want more, we want
more experiences rather than possessions.

965
00:57:00,404 --> 00:57:03,944
We want to continue to work more,
but we want to do stuff that

966
00:57:03,944 --> 00:57:07,404
is important to us and that we
think is important to the world.

967
00:57:08,524 --> 00:57:11,154
Another thing you talk about in
this chapter, and we had talked

968
00:57:11,154 --> 00:57:15,744
earlier with Jordan Grumet in episode
22 about his book, Taking Stock.

969
00:57:16,194 --> 00:57:20,114
You highlight a few exercises that are
similar to what Jordan had suggested

970
00:57:20,434 --> 00:57:23,564
about looking at the end of your life,
reverse engineering your life to help

971
00:57:23,564 --> 00:57:25,714
determine what you want your life to look.

972
00:57:25,714 --> 00:57:30,194
Now we refer to, and I love this book,
the seven stages of money maturity.

973
00:57:30,454 --> 00:57:32,134
We refer to the kinder questions.

974
00:57:32,164 --> 00:57:33,574
We haven't talked about these.

975
00:57:33,574 --> 00:57:37,014
Can you take us through what they
are and how important they are to

976
00:57:37,124 --> 00:57:39,134
figuring these kinds of things out?

977
00:57:40,294 --> 00:57:44,634
So you'll have to excuse me, Bill,
because my, my memory is, is.

978
00:57:45,129 --> 00:57:49,169
Maybe not as good as it should be, but the
purpose of the kinder questions, there are

979
00:57:49,169 --> 00:57:55,529
three of them is to get people to think
about, what, they would do if they knew

980
00:57:55,559 --> 00:57:59,159
that they were going to, I believe it's,
you're going to live for five more years.

981
00:57:59,159 --> 00:58:00,439
You're going to be in good health.

982
00:58:00,949 --> 00:58:03,519
And what was, what is it where
you would change about your life?

983
00:58:03,569 --> 00:58:06,629
If you knew that that was going to be
a case, you only had five years left,

984
00:58:06,829 --> 00:58:09,039
but you would be up until the end.

985
00:58:09,509 --> 00:58:13,529
And then I think one of the other
questions is, you have 24 hours to live

986
00:58:13,529 --> 00:58:18,599
when you look back what it is that you
wish you had done, but what you haven't

987
00:58:18,609 --> 00:58:22,339
done and the goal with these various
questions is to get you to think about

988
00:58:22,579 --> 00:58:24,559
what it is that you're doing now.

989
00:58:24,939 --> 00:58:29,409
That really is not important to you
is not meaningful to you and to get

990
00:58:29,409 --> 00:58:33,009
you to focus on the things that are
meaningful to you and make sure that

991
00:58:33,009 --> 00:58:37,419
you focus on those through the rest
of your life that you don't get to

992
00:58:37,419 --> 00:58:39,729
the end of your life and have regrets.

993
00:58:40,939 --> 00:58:43,009
And I think that's
that's hugely important.

994
00:58:43,009 --> 00:58:46,839
Of course, one of the big issues is
we don't know how much time we have.

995
00:58:46,869 --> 00:58:53,769
And there are all too many instances
that I hear of people who feel

996
00:58:53,769 --> 00:58:54,679
like they're in great health.

997
00:58:54,679 --> 00:58:58,069
And the next day they discover
that, time is limited.

998
00:58:58,439 --> 00:59:00,599
So we need to think about it now.

999
00:59:01,109 --> 00:59:05,789
About what it is that is
important to us and what is it

1000
00:59:05,789 --> 00:59:06,749
going to be important to us.

1001
00:59:06,769 --> 00:59:10,519
It's going to be more than just getting
the next promotion or next next pay raise.

1002
00:59:10,519 --> 00:59:14,519
And it's about thinking about what
we're passionate about, what it is

1003
00:59:14,529 --> 00:59:20,199
that we would find the filling and
give our lives a sense of purpose.

1004
00:59:21,309 --> 00:59:21,429
And,

1005
00:59:21,429 --> 00:59:28,509
Jonathan one of the things that that I
have discovered in retirement is that I

1006
00:59:28,509 --> 00:59:32,279
definitely want to have purpose and to
have a reason to get out of bed and, and

1007
00:59:32,289 --> 00:59:33,559
all those things that we've talked about.

1008
00:59:33,559 --> 00:59:37,799
I think that's terribly important,
but I've discovered that what.

1009
00:59:38,994 --> 00:59:46,464
Works for people isn't always the world
changing big event that sometimes it's,

1010
00:59:46,514 --> 00:59:50,344
your purpose can be, I want to be the
best grandmother I can possibly be.

1011
00:59:50,534 --> 00:59:52,314
It could be something closer to home.

1012
00:59:52,314 --> 00:59:55,614
Now that doesn't mean don't
strive for something big, but

1013
00:59:55,914 --> 00:59:59,904
what's right for one person may
be different for another person.

1014
00:59:59,944 --> 01:00:02,714
And also, just trying things.

1015
01:00:02,794 --> 01:00:09,004
I have discovered that I have received so
much joy from trying new things that I've

1016
01:00:09,034 --> 01:00:11,254
never had the opportunity to do before.

1017
01:00:11,454 --> 01:00:13,984
at the beginning, I
mentioned riding an e bike.

1018
01:00:14,214 --> 01:00:17,654
Well, it took a little,
it took a little practice.

1019
01:00:17,654 --> 01:00:20,964
I'm a little bit better at it now that
when I first got on it, I about crashed

1020
01:00:20,964 --> 01:00:24,174
and burned on, on one, U turn up the hill.

1021
01:00:24,669 --> 01:00:27,339
But it's something that's
like, Hey, I accomplished that

1022
01:00:27,339 --> 01:00:29,029
I was able to, to do that.

1023
01:00:29,039 --> 01:00:33,089
And there's other things I've tried
that it's like, eh, that, that

1024
01:00:33,089 --> 01:00:36,269
one didn't work for me, but I want
people to know they've got the

1025
01:00:36,269 --> 01:00:39,219
permission to try brand new things.

1026
01:00:39,529 --> 01:00:44,009
Even in retirement, even in those later
years, because like you said, some of

1027
01:00:44,029 --> 01:00:47,129
us have decades to spend in retirement.

1028
01:00:47,739 --> 01:00:51,589
And I think it's a really important
point, Becky not only to, to try new

1029
01:00:51,619 --> 01:00:54,749
things, but also to have a long list
of new things that you want to try,

1030
01:00:54,759 --> 01:00:58,439
because you may discover that the
thing that you think is going to make

1031
01:00:58,439 --> 01:01:03,184
your retirement fulfilling turns out
to be, eh, just not the thing for you.

1032
01:01:03,424 --> 01:01:10,234
So to the extent that you have a long sort
of wish list of potentially purposeful

1033
01:01:10,234 --> 01:01:14,564
activities for retirement, the better
off you're going to be because some

1034
01:01:14,564 --> 01:01:16,044
of them are not going to work for you.

1035
01:01:16,374 --> 01:01:19,854
And one of the things that I
had always thought that I would

1036
01:01:19,854 --> 01:01:23,614
love to do is teach college.

1037
01:01:24,184 --> 01:01:30,364
And so, in the last nine years, I
actually taught at a small private

1038
01:01:30,364 --> 01:01:32,704
college as an adjunct professor.

1039
01:01:32,704 --> 01:01:35,984
I taught personal finance
I enjoy public speaking.

1040
01:01:36,864 --> 01:01:40,464
I, love to talk about personal
finance and I have to tell you,

1041
01:01:40,494 --> 01:01:41,764
it just didn't work for me.

1042
01:01:42,734 --> 01:01:45,894
I thought it was going to
be this great experience.

1043
01:01:45,934 --> 01:01:50,364
I thought that, I would just, I
would be a natural teacher and so on.

1044
01:01:50,814 --> 01:01:54,814
And what I really felt more than
anything else was that, I just, I

1045
01:01:54,814 --> 01:01:56,574
wasn't as good at this as I thought.

1046
01:01:56,814 --> 01:02:00,274
I didn't feel like I was making enough
of a difference in the kids lives.

1047
01:02:00,684 --> 01:02:07,344
And I think after, Writing about
personal finance and, reaching tens

1048
01:02:07,344 --> 01:02:11,964
of thousands of people with any one
article that standing up in front of

1049
01:02:11,964 --> 01:02:15,484
a room of 15 kids and talking about
compounding didn't quite cut it.

1050
01:02:17,344 --> 01:02:19,414
But I, unless, until I tried it.

1051
01:02:20,134 --> 01:02:20,495
you didn't know.

1052
01:02:20,564 --> 01:02:21,404
I, I would've known that.

1053
01:02:21,774 --> 01:02:22,124
Right.

1054
01:02:22,124 --> 01:02:25,884
And so I'm glad I didn't decide
to, base my whole retirement

1055
01:02:25,884 --> 01:02:27,624
on being an adjunct professor.

1056
01:02:27,654 --> 01:02:28,944
'cause it would've been a bad retirement.

1057
01:02:28,944 --> 01:02:29,034
Mm-hmm.

1058
01:02:29,694 --> 01:02:32,884
. 
But the, on the other hand, do
you feel like that was a failure?

1059
01:02:33,964 --> 01:02:35,224
No, I would say it was.

1060
01:02:35,894 --> 01:02:38,654
I would say that it's not
something that I would do again.

1061
01:02:39,014 --> 01:02:39,254
No.

1062
01:02:39,254 --> 01:02:41,564
And, and that's, that's my point
is I don't think we should look

1063
01:02:41,564 --> 01:02:42,584
at these things as failures.

1064
01:02:42,584 --> 01:02:45,254
You try something and if it
doesn't work, that's fine.

1065
01:02:45,254 --> 01:02:46,244
You move on to the next thing.

1066
01:02:47,724 --> 01:02:52,774
So, Jonathan, in chapter three you
talk about rewiring your brain.

1067
01:02:52,784 --> 01:02:55,774
And I don't know if this conversation
we've just been having is part

1068
01:02:55,774 --> 01:02:59,984
of that, but tell us what you
mean by that we need to rewire

1069
01:02:59,984 --> 01:03:00,564
our brains.

1070
01:03:01,754 --> 01:03:06,154
So one of the things that we
know, thanks to all the work

1071
01:03:06,174 --> 01:03:07,934
on behavioral finance is that

1072
01:03:07,934 --> 01:03:16,214
we make tons of financial mistakes, a
lot of people are aware of, some of these

1073
01:03:16,214 --> 01:03:21,904
behavioral finance errors, we tend to
engage in home bias, we, we invest too

1074
01:03:21,904 --> 01:03:27,324
much in our home country and companies
that we know in our employer's stock

1075
01:03:27,324 --> 01:03:29,354
and so on, we tend to be loss averse.

1076
01:03:29,354 --> 01:03:34,319
This is the reason why, we tend to Tend to
share away from stocks is why we tend to

1077
01:03:34,319 --> 01:03:36,549
freak out when the stock market goes down.

1078
01:03:36,849 --> 01:03:40,169
There are all of these behavioral
finance mistakes that we make

1079
01:03:40,539 --> 01:03:47,929
and we need to understand
ourselves so that we don't make.

1080
01:03:48,554 --> 01:03:53,044
A financial mistake that will
end up imploding our future

1081
01:03:53,054 --> 01:03:55,464
because remember, we only get one
shot at this financial journey.

1082
01:03:55,464 --> 01:03:58,714
We only get one chance of making
it from here to retirement.

1083
01:03:59,014 --> 01:04:02,384
And you don't want to make the big error
that's going to totally derail you.

1084
01:04:02,914 --> 01:04:11,669
And I would say that in thinking about
behavioral finance and the need to rewire

1085
01:04:11,669 --> 01:04:17,129
our brains the number one thing that
we need to do is to have the ability

1086
01:04:17,129 --> 01:04:22,229
to delay gratification to give some
thought to our future self, not to be

1087
01:04:22,319 --> 01:04:26,699
so focused on today, coming back to
our hunter gatherer brains, our hunter

1088
01:04:26,699 --> 01:04:29,949
gatherers did not have to fund 401k plans.

1089
01:04:29,979 --> 01:04:32,629
They did not have to worry
about saving for retirement.

1090
01:04:32,949 --> 01:04:36,359
This is for us an unnatural act.

1091
01:04:36,459 --> 01:04:42,669
thanks to our hunter gatherer
brains, our thought is let's consume

1092
01:04:42,719 --> 01:04:46,079
as much as possible today because
who the heck knows where the food

1093
01:04:46,079 --> 01:04:47,579
is going to be available tomorrow.

1094
01:04:48,229 --> 01:04:55,489
And so somehow we need to overcome
This focus on today and to show some

1095
01:04:55,519 --> 01:04:57,749
care and concern for our future self.

1096
01:04:58,159 --> 01:05:02,959
And that's why things like automatic
contributions to a 401k plan are

1097
01:05:03,059 --> 01:05:07,269
so important because it helps
to overcome this behavioral bias

1098
01:05:07,269 --> 01:05:09,959
towards consuming everything today.

1099
01:05:10,669 --> 01:05:18,229
The other one that I would say we need
to try to overcome is an affliction

1100
01:05:18,229 --> 01:05:22,264
that's it's mostly found upon among
the male portion of the population,

1101
01:05:22,264 --> 01:05:25,814
but it, women can also suffer
from it, which is overconfidence.

1102
01:05:26,104 --> 01:05:30,264
We tend to be way too confident
in our financial abilities and

1103
01:05:30,264 --> 01:05:33,974
particularly when it comes to picking
investments and forecasting the

1104
01:05:33,974 --> 01:05:36,134
markets direction and so on and so on.

1105
01:05:37,234 --> 01:05:40,384
There's a reason why the website
that I launched is called

1106
01:05:40,384 --> 01:05:42,624
humble dollar because humility.

1107
01:05:43,374 --> 01:05:47,754
When faced with all the financial
decisions out there is a great virtue

1108
01:05:47,794 --> 01:05:54,984
and those who are too confident will, in
the end, make a financial mistake that

1109
01:05:54,984 --> 01:05:59,444
will badly hurt them because in their
overconfidence, not only will they be

1110
01:05:59,444 --> 01:06:04,654
convinced that they are right, but they
will make a way too large investment bet.

1111
01:06:06,624 --> 01:06:09,804
One of the other things you talk
about that I think is important is,

1112
01:06:10,084 --> 01:06:13,964
and can you explain it to us, we
must train ourselves to focus on the

1113
01:06:13,964 --> 01:06:16,254
stock market's fundamental value.

1114
01:06:16,594 --> 01:06:18,224
What do you mean by fundamental value?

1115
01:06:19,294 --> 01:06:24,994
So when we trade stocks or we buy
mutual funds, they just seem like,

1116
01:06:25,014 --> 01:06:27,294
notations on the computer screen.

1117
01:06:27,294 --> 01:06:29,304
They're just ticker symbols.

1118
01:06:29,324 --> 01:06:33,294
They seem like ephemeral things
that just bounce up and down.

1119
01:06:34,054 --> 01:06:38,334
Every day, the financial markets are
open, but in truth, when we invest in

1120
01:06:38,334 --> 01:06:43,344
stocks, we are investing in real companies
that produce real goods and services,

1121
01:06:43,664 --> 01:06:46,334
the benefit from a growing economy.

1122
01:06:46,704 --> 01:06:50,374
And as a consequence,
they have intrinsic value.

1123
01:06:50,374 --> 01:06:52,374
They have fundamental value.

1124
01:06:52,764 --> 01:06:55,954
And if we lose sight of that,
we're much more likely to panic.

1125
01:06:56,634 --> 01:07:01,374
When the market goes down, if we see them
for what they are, which is real companies

1126
01:07:01,374 --> 01:07:06,964
with produce real goods and services that
have a fundamental value that have an

1127
01:07:06,964 --> 01:07:12,279
intrinsic value, we're less likely to Look
at a market that's down 20 or 30 percent

1128
01:07:12,279 --> 01:07:14,659
and say, Oh my God, this is going to zero.

1129
01:07:14,679 --> 01:07:17,079
I've got to get out now
before I lose everything.

1130
01:07:18,199 --> 01:07:23,559
I go back to the pandemic and what
happened to the stock market, both

1131
01:07:23,569 --> 01:07:27,369
the drop and subsequent rebound.

1132
01:07:27,629 --> 01:07:31,109
And I think it's worth
thinking about that time.

1133
01:07:31,179 --> 01:07:32,889
I mean, it was, it was not a great time.

1134
01:07:32,889 --> 01:07:35,209
We, we were all socially isolated.

1135
01:07:35,459 --> 01:07:37,179
There was a lot of fear.

1136
01:07:38,124 --> 01:07:44,874
But the middle of that, in many
ways, it was a very optimistic event,

1137
01:07:45,184 --> 01:07:49,064
particularly from an economic point
of view, because faced with this

1138
01:07:49,104 --> 01:07:52,814
disruption of the world economy,
everything was turned upside down.

1139
01:07:52,944 --> 01:07:58,894
And yet somehow people found a way
to go on doing business restaurants,

1140
01:07:59,159 --> 01:08:02,659
said, okay, if people won't sit
shoulder to shoulder inside, we're

1141
01:08:02,659 --> 01:08:03,979
going to put them out on the sidewalk.

1142
01:08:03,999 --> 01:08:05,129
We'll feed them there.

1143
01:08:05,399 --> 01:08:08,389
And it worked, company said,
okay, we can't come to the office.

1144
01:08:08,389 --> 01:08:10,479
So we'll do everything via zoom.

1145
01:08:10,949 --> 01:08:15,979
But in terms of the innovation,
I mean, nothing could match.

1146
01:08:16,239 --> 01:08:19,009
The speed with which
a vaccine was created.

1147
01:08:19,009 --> 01:08:22,059
I mean, when the pandemic started,
people were saying, it'll be five

1148
01:08:22,059 --> 01:08:23,459
years till we have a vaccine.

1149
01:08:23,489 --> 01:08:27,869
What was it like seven or eight months
before we had the first indication

1150
01:08:27,869 --> 01:08:29,079
that the vaccine would be created?

1151
01:08:29,509 --> 01:08:31,679
It was astonishing, every day.

1152
01:08:32,249 --> 01:08:38,669
8 billion people around the world
wake up and say, how am I going

1153
01:08:38,669 --> 01:08:40,549
to make my life better today?

1154
01:08:40,559 --> 01:08:46,149
What is it that I'm going to do to make
things better for me and for my family?

1155
01:08:46,569 --> 01:08:50,659
And because Individual effort.

1156
01:08:50,779 --> 01:08:54,169
We collectively benefit.

1157
01:08:54,559 --> 01:09:00,289
there is a reason to be optimistic,
about not only the world, but also about

1158
01:09:00,299 --> 01:09:04,989
the financial markets and all of this
energy and this entrepreneurship and this

1159
01:09:05,029 --> 01:09:10,119
innovation gets reflected in the stock
market and in the value of companies.

1160
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:11,969
And if you want to benefit from it.

1161
01:09:12,779 --> 01:09:13,529
It's very simple.

1162
01:09:13,559 --> 01:09:19,019
You buy a broad market index fund and
you harness the energy of everybody else

1163
01:09:19,049 --> 01:09:21,029
and you benefit from their hard work.

1164
01:09:22,759 --> 01:09:24,319
That's fantastic advice again.

1165
01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:28,969
And the pandemic is a good
place to talk about, resilience.

1166
01:09:29,469 --> 01:09:32,359
And that's one of the things,
our late starter community.

1167
01:09:32,729 --> 01:09:34,299
Really has is resilience.

1168
01:09:34,619 --> 01:09:37,069
They may have experienced life
and not paid attention to their

1169
01:09:37,069 --> 01:09:40,799
finances, but when they do wake
up, they find a way to get there.

1170
01:09:41,119 --> 01:09:41,769
It's incredible.

1171
01:09:41,769 --> 01:09:43,039
And our audience really does.

1172
01:09:43,079 --> 01:09:45,249
Becky did her story is incredible.

1173
01:09:45,249 --> 01:09:48,999
She started with a net worth of
zero at 50 and by 63, they were

1174
01:09:48,999 --> 01:09:52,809
retired with a seven figure portfolio
and are living their best lives.

1175
01:09:53,059 --> 01:09:57,559
She is an example of the fact that
it is possible to start late and

1176
01:09:57,559 --> 01:10:00,949
still get where you want to go
with a comfortable financial life.

1177
01:10:01,629 --> 01:10:06,679
And then, with regards to thinking
big, in chapter four, You talk

1178
01:10:06,689 --> 01:10:08,379
about human capital a lot.

1179
01:10:08,949 --> 01:10:12,969
I'd like you to describe what that
is and how human capital plays

1180
01:10:12,969 --> 01:10:14,809
a role in our financial lives.

1181
01:10:16,769 --> 01:10:21,949
So for most of us, particularly early
in our adult life, for most of us, our

1182
01:10:21,949 --> 01:10:24,759
most valuable asset is our human capital.

1183
01:10:24,759 --> 01:10:26,999
It's our income earning ability.

1184
01:10:27,429 --> 01:10:33,039
And our human capital should really
drive so much of our financial behavior.

1185
01:10:33,249 --> 01:10:38,429
So you think about it, you For
40 years, we'll earn, a regular

1186
01:10:38,429 --> 01:10:39,999
or somewhat irregular paycheck.

1187
01:10:40,049 --> 01:10:42,359
I mean, what does that mean
for your financial life?

1188
01:10:42,369 --> 01:10:46,579
Well, first of all, your human
capital is your source of savings.

1189
01:10:46,919 --> 01:10:51,129
The goal here is to take a
little piece of every paycheck

1190
01:10:51,359 --> 01:10:53,039
and put it away for the future.

1191
01:10:53,079 --> 01:10:54,059
So at some point.

1192
01:10:55,009 --> 01:10:58,059
What we call retirement, you can
live without your human capital,

1193
01:10:58,059 --> 01:11:00,049
without your income earning ability.

1194
01:11:00,319 --> 01:11:03,719
Second, our human capital drives
our ability to take on debt.

1195
01:11:03,999 --> 01:11:08,709
it is entirely rational for people
in their 20s and early 30s to take on

1196
01:11:08,709 --> 01:11:14,329
college loans and to take on big mortgages
because they know that they have decades

1197
01:11:14,329 --> 01:11:18,809
and decades of paychecks ahead of them,
service these debts and eventually

1198
01:11:18,809 --> 01:11:20,999
pay them off before they retire.

1199
01:11:21,344 --> 01:11:26,604
So when we think about, insurance,
our insurance needs are in large

1200
01:11:26,604 --> 01:11:29,614
part driven by our human capital.

1201
01:11:29,804 --> 01:11:33,164
We need to make sure that we stay
healthy, so we need health insurance.

1202
01:11:33,374 --> 01:11:38,584
We need to make sure that we can still
pay for our living expenses if we become

1203
01:11:38,584 --> 01:11:40,444
disabled, so we need disability insurance.

1204
01:11:40,444 --> 01:11:44,004
We need to make sure our family is
okay if we go up under the next bus,

1205
01:11:44,004 --> 01:11:45,834
which is why we buy life insurance.

1206
01:11:46,184 --> 01:11:48,144
So our human capital also drives.

1207
01:11:49,639 --> 01:11:50,739
Our insurance needs.

1208
01:11:50,909 --> 01:11:54,839
So when you think about your
financial life, you should put your

1209
01:11:54,859 --> 01:11:58,039
human capital at the center of it.

1210
01:11:58,419 --> 01:12:03,669
And, another key thought here is that
when you think about your human capital,

1211
01:12:03,779 --> 01:12:10,249
for most of us, our human capital is
not unlike owning a bond, our human

1212
01:12:10,249 --> 01:12:15,349
capital kicks off this regular paycheck,
just like bond kicks off interest.

1213
01:12:15,649 --> 01:12:21,749
And that frees us up to invest heavily in
the stock market during our working years.

1214
01:12:21,749 --> 01:12:24,009
We don't need income from our investments.

1215
01:12:24,239 --> 01:12:27,369
What we need is growth and the stock
market is going to provide that.

1216
01:12:27,649 --> 01:12:31,319
But as we approach retirement and
the disappearance of that paycheck

1217
01:12:31,329 --> 01:12:36,324
from our human capital, That's the
reason we need to start moving towards

1218
01:12:36,364 --> 01:12:41,644
bonds so that we have the interest
from bonds to replace the paycheck we

1219
01:12:41,644 --> 01:12:43,214
used to get from our human capital.

1220
01:12:44,952 --> 01:12:49,062
One thing I think I like you
talk about in this chapter is

1221
01:12:49,412 --> 01:12:50,702
how to look at our paycheck.

1222
01:12:51,412 --> 01:12:57,312
And I did not learn to
partition my first paycheck.

1223
01:12:57,957 --> 01:13:02,727
It was a means to an end of
spending and enjoying life.

1224
01:13:03,247 --> 01:13:06,197
I didn't start with my future self.

1225
01:13:06,197 --> 01:13:07,217
I didn't start with...

1226
01:13:07,642 --> 01:13:10,982
Saving first, saving 10
to 20 percent early on.

1227
01:13:11,352 --> 01:13:13,822
It was a paycheck to paycheck lifestyle.

1228
01:13:14,082 --> 01:13:18,082
Do you have a particular recommendation as
how we look at partitioning our paycheck?

1229
01:13:21,312 --> 01:13:22,092
I think

1230
01:13:22,502 --> 01:13:34,202
that the thing that I would say to people
early on is that they should, to the

1231
01:13:34,202 --> 01:13:38,872
extent possible, focus on the fact that.

1232
01:13:38,932 --> 01:13:48,282
20 or 30 years down the road, they are not
going to find the work world as exciting

1233
01:13:48,282 --> 01:13:49,892
as they are in their early twenties.

1234
01:13:49,942 --> 01:13:55,862
They will reach a point where they simply
don't want to do what they're doing today.

1235
01:13:55,872 --> 01:14:00,582
And they want to have the financial
freedom to do something else.

1236
01:14:00,932 --> 01:14:03,912
And if they want that financial
freedom, then they're going to

1237
01:14:03,922 --> 01:14:06,192
have to start sucking away money.

1238
01:14:06,772 --> 01:14:07,372
today.

1239
01:14:07,632 --> 01:14:12,852
And so when you suck away that money,
10, 15, 20 percent of your paycheck,

1240
01:14:13,222 --> 01:14:16,312
yeah, you're, you're saving for what
you might call retirement, but what

1241
01:14:16,312 --> 01:14:20,002
you're really doing is you're buying
yourself future financial freedom.

1242
01:14:21,022 --> 01:14:25,102
In the near term, what you're buying
is some freedom from financial worry.

1243
01:14:25,457 --> 01:14:30,567
But 20 or 30 years down the road, you're
buying yourself freedom from your cubicle,

1244
01:14:30,977 --> 01:14:33,827
freedom to spend your time as you wish.

1245
01:14:34,217 --> 01:14:42,407
And so even though saving for the future
seems like an absurd thing to do in your

1246
01:14:42,407 --> 01:14:47,317
20s when there's so many, shiny bubbles
out there that you want to buy today.

1247
01:14:47,757 --> 01:14:51,077
if you want that freedom down
the road, it's worth making

1248
01:14:51,077 --> 01:14:52,067
a little bit of a sacrifice

1249
01:14:52,067 --> 01:14:52,387
now.

1250
01:14:53,907 --> 01:14:54,057
Yeah.

1251
01:14:54,057 --> 01:14:58,317
You talk about in your book and I
quote, we might strive to buy a home

1252
01:14:58,317 --> 01:15:00,117
in our thirties and our forties.

1253
01:15:00,117 --> 01:15:04,677
Our focus is often switches to the kids
education with these two goals behind us.

1254
01:15:04,677 --> 01:15:08,197
We finally turn our attention to
retirement, but at that point we might

1255
01:15:08,197 --> 01:15:13,927
be in our fifties and it is too late
because 10 to 15 years is simply not

1256
01:15:13,927 --> 01:15:16,837
enough time to accumulate the money
needed for a comfortable retirement.

1257
01:15:17,462 --> 01:15:19,372
Becky's story is counterintuitive to that.

1258
01:15:19,382 --> 01:15:20,692
Do you still feel this way?

1259
01:15:20,692 --> 01:15:24,222
Cause our audience wants to
feel that it's not too late.

1260
01:15:24,462 --> 01:15:27,732
And then as a second question,
why do we wake up late?

1261
01:15:28,082 --> 01:15:29,442
What is it about 50?

1262
01:15:29,452 --> 01:15:31,072
There's been a lot of discussion here.

1263
01:15:31,422 --> 01:15:36,312
And then in my mind, we have catch up
contributions starting at 50, but why

1264
01:15:36,322 --> 01:15:37,992
aren't they earlier and why aren't they

1265
01:15:38,002 --> 01:15:38,572
more?

1266
01:15:39,916 --> 01:15:46,596
It's in terms of Becky's story, If
you have a high enough income, yeah,

1267
01:15:46,816 --> 01:15:50,086
you can reach financial independence
very quickly if you get your costs

1268
01:15:50,086 --> 01:15:53,406
down low enough, but most people.

1269
01:15:53,796 --> 01:15:59,056
Are not going to have, the ability
to get the separation between their

1270
01:15:59,056 --> 01:16:03,086
income on the one hand and their
expenses on the other hand, such that

1271
01:16:03,086 --> 01:16:08,116
they can reach financial freedom in
a decade by, by saving like crazy.

1272
01:16:08,116 --> 01:16:11,806
It's just, it's too, it's too
short a period unless your income

1273
01:16:11,806 --> 01:16:15,396
is super, super high and your
expenses are super, super low.

1274
01:16:15,706 --> 01:16:16,116
So.

1275
01:16:16,966 --> 01:16:20,846
If you can starting, early
is the better way to go.

1276
01:16:20,986 --> 01:16:27,826
What if you are age 50 and you
haven't saved for a time today?

1277
01:16:28,836 --> 01:16:33,206
I would say that, the, the
prescription beyond, yes, you need

1278
01:16:33,206 --> 01:16:35,476
to save like crazy starting today.

1279
01:16:35,876 --> 01:16:38,316
is to be prepared to
do a couple of things.

1280
01:16:38,416 --> 01:16:41,506
One is delaying social security.

1281
01:16:41,506 --> 01:16:47,006
Age 70 makes total sense unless you're
in ill health or both you and your

1282
01:16:47,006 --> 01:16:51,246
spouse are in health ill health to
you should get yourself comfortable

1283
01:16:51,246 --> 01:16:54,236
with this notion that you're going
to annuitize more of your income,

1284
01:16:54,716 --> 01:16:56,606
more of your savings upon retirement.

1285
01:16:56,986 --> 01:17:00,176
forget this notion about, oh, I
don't want to annuitize because I

1286
01:17:00,176 --> 01:17:01,356
want to leave the money to the kids.

1287
01:17:01,676 --> 01:17:05,641
If you're starting late You want
a decent retirement with a lot of

1288
01:17:05,641 --> 01:17:09,251
income, you need to seriously think
about annuitizing a significant

1289
01:17:09,251 --> 01:17:11,251
part of the savings that you have.

1290
01:17:12,071 --> 01:17:17,231
Third, I think that working into
retirement, not necessarily doing

1291
01:17:17,231 --> 01:17:18,431
what you're currently doing.

1292
01:17:18,801 --> 01:17:23,271
But doing something that you love that
also brings in a little bit of money that

1293
01:17:23,281 --> 01:17:25,661
can also make the retirement numbers work.

1294
01:17:26,491 --> 01:17:32,461
I don't know why we have this
notion that people should quit

1295
01:17:32,481 --> 01:17:35,681
the workforce at 60 or 65 and do
nothing for the rest of their life.

1296
01:17:35,681 --> 01:17:38,261
I think it's a prescription
for unhappiness.

1297
01:17:38,591 --> 01:17:42,461
So continue to do something purposeful
and something purposeful that

1298
01:17:42,461 --> 01:17:43,491
comes with a little bit of money.

1299
01:17:44,201 --> 01:17:45,001
Why not?

1300
01:17:45,501 --> 01:17:49,551
That's another way for late starters
to make the numbers work for them.

1301
01:17:50,221 --> 01:17:55,141
Fourth, if you have high
expenses and you're planning to

1302
01:17:55,141 --> 01:17:57,751
downsize, why not downsize now?

1303
01:17:57,761 --> 01:17:59,591
Why not get your expenses lower?

1304
01:17:59,811 --> 01:18:02,861
not, that wouldn't simply
make it easier to save.

1305
01:18:02,881 --> 01:18:06,011
You may actually find that you
buy yourself happiness by having

1306
01:18:06,011 --> 01:18:11,021
a simpler life, a smaller home
where you do less yard work and

1307
01:18:11,021 --> 01:18:12,941
there's less maintenance and so on.

1308
01:18:13,271 --> 01:18:14,361
simplicity.

1309
01:18:15,401 --> 01:18:17,671
Is a key to happiness.

1310
01:18:17,701 --> 01:18:20,571
you don't want to be worrying
about all this nonsense.

1311
01:18:21,121 --> 01:18:24,311
And so I think maybe the 4th
or 5th questions, or maybe it

1312
01:18:24,311 --> 01:18:25,901
was your 5th question, Bill.

1313
01:18:27,011 --> 01:18:29,081
Was about why do we leave it so late?

1314
01:18:30,601 --> 01:18:33,351
I think it's partly
about financial literacy.

1315
01:18:34,026 --> 01:18:41,796
But I think it's also about societal
attitudes and what, we are told

1316
01:18:41,806 --> 01:18:45,846
is the good life as opposed to
what actually is the good life.

1317
01:18:46,036 --> 01:18:50,086
if you believe the good life is, going on.

1318
01:18:50,376 --> 01:18:53,626
exotic vacations and spending huge sums.

1319
01:18:53,626 --> 01:18:57,746
You think the good life is
driving a luxury German sedan.

1320
01:18:57,746 --> 01:19:01,526
if you think a good life is living
in a house where, there are three

1321
01:19:01,526 --> 01:19:06,706
or four empty rooms that nobody ever
uses, then you, you are going to end

1322
01:19:06,866 --> 01:19:08,676
up spending most of your paycheck.

1323
01:19:09,026 --> 01:19:14,766
you need to think for yourself and
think what is it that matters not to

1324
01:19:14,766 --> 01:19:19,776
the neighbors, not to the marketers of
luxury products, what matters to you,

1325
01:19:20,166 --> 01:19:25,186
and then spend the money on things that
matter to you and toss out all the rest.

1326
01:19:26,456 --> 01:19:31,006
And then finally, We are wired as
we've already talked about, to live for

1327
01:19:31,006 --> 01:19:33,106
today and not to worry about tomorrow.

1328
01:19:33,116 --> 01:19:35,946
That is a huge behavioral issue.

1329
01:19:36,216 --> 01:19:42,056
So on top of, the financial literacy,
on top of the marketing messages that

1330
01:19:42,056 --> 01:19:47,366
we get about what the good life is,
we also need to engage in this major

1331
01:19:47,366 --> 01:19:53,086
behavioral change and overcome our hunter
gatherer instincts to focus on the long

1332
01:19:53,086 --> 01:19:55,146
term and think about our future self.

1333
01:19:55,546 --> 01:20:00,451
And that If you don't do those things
is why you went, you don't Start

1334
01:20:00,481 --> 01:20:02,371
thinking about retirement until age 50

1335
01:20:06,091 --> 01:20:06,261
in

1336
01:20:06,261 --> 01:20:12,111
chapter 5 you talk about to win Don't
lose and I think this is a big thing for

1337
01:20:12,111 --> 01:20:19,951
our more mature audience because we don't
have The decades in front of us to, to

1338
01:20:19,961 --> 01:20:25,271
let our investments compound, which is the
simple way to get where you want to go.

1339
01:20:25,581 --> 01:20:28,951
So what do we need to focus
on so that we don't lose?

1340
01:20:28,951 --> 01:20:32,921
Because our audiences is, not
only do I need to make good

1341
01:20:32,921 --> 01:20:34,871
decisions, but I need to not make

1342
01:20:34,871 --> 01:20:35,791
big mistakes.

1343
01:20:36,676 --> 01:20:41,176
So I think there's some crucial issue,
Becky, if you are behind the eight ball,

1344
01:20:41,176 --> 01:20:45,226
when it comes to retirement savings,
the temptation is to roll the dice.

1345
01:20:45,536 --> 01:20:52,206
The temptation is to make big investment
bets to try to make up for lost time.

1346
01:20:52,616 --> 01:20:56,696
And more often than not, that's
going to come back to haunt you.

1347
01:20:56,746 --> 01:20:59,096
you are not going to pick the next Tesla.

1348
01:20:59,256 --> 01:21:02,076
you are not going to discover
the next hot cryptocurrency.

1349
01:21:03,146 --> 01:21:05,911
These things are not going to happen.

1350
01:21:06,061 --> 01:21:12,921
Yeah, you cannot at that late stage
afford to take a lot of risks because

1351
01:21:13,421 --> 01:21:16,541
more often than not, those risks
are going to come back to haunt you.

1352
01:21:16,921 --> 01:21:21,751
So at that point, you need
to be very Cognizant of risk.

1353
01:21:21,751 --> 01:21:26,821
And in fact, as an investor, remember,
you cannot guarantee that you're going to

1354
01:21:26,821 --> 01:21:31,151
get good returns, but you can manage risk.

1355
01:21:31,321 --> 01:21:36,471
we, as investors should be much
more focused on managing risk

1356
01:21:36,471 --> 01:21:38,251
rather than pursuing returns.

1357
01:21:38,561 --> 01:21:39,051
And so.

1358
01:21:39,601 --> 01:21:44,771
If you've got a short runway to
retirement I would limit risk,

1359
01:21:45,011 --> 01:21:46,591
which means diversify broadly.

1360
01:21:46,591 --> 01:21:46,931
Yes.

1361
01:21:46,951 --> 01:21:50,981
Have some stocks in your portfolio,
but, balance it with some bonds,

1362
01:21:51,491 --> 01:21:56,411
stick with simple investment products,
favor index funds, favor low expenses,

1363
01:21:56,601 --> 01:22:01,191
and take that sure route toward
retirement because anything else.

1364
01:22:01,671 --> 01:22:05,551
Is more likely to put you further
behind and get you there quicker.

1365
01:22:07,261 --> 01:22:09,871
So much of your book is about mindset.

1366
01:22:10,371 --> 01:22:12,201
And I think mindset is 80%.

1367
01:22:12,251 --> 01:22:15,901
You talk about the math being the last
thing in some ways you want to talk about.

1368
01:22:16,251 --> 01:22:19,511
Because you don't want to waste your
time being anything other than simple.

1369
01:22:19,791 --> 01:22:24,051
This book is pivotal for our
late starter audience in getting

1370
01:22:24,051 --> 01:22:25,651
their minds wrapped around.

1371
01:22:26,131 --> 01:22:27,461
How do I do this?

1372
01:22:27,711 --> 01:22:28,581
So that I'm happy.

1373
01:22:29,006 --> 01:22:33,696
focus on happiness in some ways
is so much more important than

1374
01:22:33,776 --> 01:22:35,806
a focus on the math of finance.

1375
01:22:36,176 --> 01:22:37,146
We need...

1376
01:22:37,501 --> 01:22:42,721
To shift our mindsets a little bit
so that you use our finances as a

1377
01:22:42,721 --> 01:22:49,871
tool to reach the time freedom and be
happy along the way, but also enjoy

1378
01:22:50,231 --> 01:22:51,781
the happiness through retirement.

1379
01:22:52,041 --> 01:22:53,061
I love this book.

1380
01:22:53,091 --> 01:22:55,621
I also loved your book, My Money Journey.

1381
01:22:55,851 --> 01:22:58,861
There's actually a story in
there from a late starter that I

1382
01:22:58,861 --> 01:23:00,241
would encourage people to read.

1383
01:23:00,631 --> 01:23:05,971
This book is about 30 people that
did it in so many different ways.

1384
01:23:06,376 --> 01:23:11,576
Personal finance is personal, and there
are just as many ways as there are

1385
01:23:11,576 --> 01:23:13,946
people in our community to get this done.

1386
01:23:14,256 --> 01:23:19,336
Yes, there are some commonalities about
the methods, but, the challenges we face.

1387
01:23:19,841 --> 01:23:23,821
And the way to overcome those challenges
with accountability, partners,

1388
01:23:24,111 --> 01:23:27,331
encouragement, and tangible action steps.

1389
01:23:27,521 --> 01:23:32,431
You've given us both this podcast
is about mindset, money, and life.

1390
01:23:32,721 --> 01:23:37,981
I think we've touched on all topics and I
thank you immensely for joining us today.

1391
01:23:38,681 --> 01:23:39,601
It's been my pleasure.

1392
01:23:39,601 --> 01:23:41,541
It's been fun talking to you and Becky.

1393
01:23:41,561 --> 01:23:42,611
So thank you for having me on.

1394
01:23:42,731 --> 01:23:43,621
I really appreciate it.

1395
01:23:44,726 --> 01:23:49,166
We'd like to wrap up with a few basic
questions that I think our audiences

1396
01:23:49,496 --> 01:23:55,166
love and we want to know from you,
other than your material to increase

1397
01:23:55,166 --> 01:23:58,846
their knowledge, what other resources
would you recommend for them to avail

1398
01:23:58,846 --> 01:24:02,346
themselves of to learn how to do this?

1399
01:24:05,346 --> 01:24:07,326
I get this question a reasonable amount.

1400
01:24:07,326 --> 01:24:12,756
I don't have sort of, one or two
key books that I point people to.

1401
01:24:13,206 --> 01:24:21,636
What I think You need in order to be
a knowledgeable investor and a Vester

1402
01:24:21,656 --> 01:24:26,386
who, confronts the financial world
with confidence is to read widely.

1403
01:24:26,386 --> 01:24:30,976
I'd be particularly early on, read
anything you get your hands on just so

1404
01:24:30,976 --> 01:24:34,576
that you have some sense of the, for
the financial world, you don't have

1405
01:24:34,576 --> 01:24:39,826
to act on any of it, but just to read
it, to start to understand, what is.

1406
01:24:40,741 --> 01:24:43,241
The truth and what is nonsense.

1407
01:24:43,591 --> 01:24:47,751
I mean, I would almost encourage people
to turn on CNBC just to laugh at the

1408
01:24:47,751 --> 01:24:52,671
predictions that are being made from
people have no clue what the future holds.

1409
01:24:52,671 --> 01:24:56,351
They talk with such confidence
and yet tomorrow they'll be

1410
01:24:56,351 --> 01:24:57,561
telling a different story.

1411
01:24:57,971 --> 01:25:00,291
I'm actually a big fan of Twitter.

1412
01:25:00,301 --> 01:25:04,531
I get a lot of my news and
financial information from Twitter.

1413
01:25:04,781 --> 01:25:07,321
There are a lot of people on
Twitter who are worth following,

1414
01:25:07,321 --> 01:25:11,566
who can give you some Interesting
insights on the financial world.

1415
01:25:12,026 --> 01:25:17,496
But again, to be a confident manager
of your own money, you need not just

1416
01:25:17,496 --> 01:25:22,516
experience, but you also need to read
widely, read everything, not necessarily

1417
01:25:22,526 --> 01:25:28,216
act, but just have that confidence
that comes from having read around the

1418
01:25:28,216 --> 01:25:32,446
financial world and started to grasp
what is sensible and what's nonsense.

1419
01:25:33,316 --> 01:25:37,586
Yeah, I would refer our audience actually
for a couple of reasons to our website.

1420
01:25:37,906 --> 01:25:41,256
You mentioned earlier charity
and the happiness it gives.

1421
01:25:41,376 --> 01:25:45,386
We don't monetize this podcast, but
we have listed many charities on

1422
01:25:45,386 --> 01:25:49,136
our website that we would encourage
people to donate to if they want to

1423
01:25:49,136 --> 01:25:51,126
support the podcast, that's number one.

1424
01:25:51,396 --> 01:25:56,156
Number two, you mentioned a plethora of
resources and we have that on our website

1425
01:25:56,196 --> 01:26:01,596
with books, podcasts, blogs that we would
point everybody to, find your space.

1426
01:26:01,866 --> 01:26:04,746
Find the method that works
for you, whether it be videos,

1427
01:26:04,776 --> 01:26:06,796
books, blogs, or podcasts.

1428
01:26:07,226 --> 01:26:09,396
I mean, I have this big, huge library.

1429
01:26:09,396 --> 01:26:10,366
I've read a bunch of books.

1430
01:26:10,366 --> 01:26:12,296
I got into analysis paralysis from it.

1431
01:26:12,526 --> 01:26:15,226
It only takes a couple to get you started.

1432
01:26:15,526 --> 01:26:17,536
And your books are certainly one of them.

1433
01:26:17,536 --> 01:26:18,546
I've read many of them.

1434
01:26:18,856 --> 01:26:20,956
I would certainly direct
people towards them.

1435
01:26:21,256 --> 01:26:24,836
Tell us where people can reach
you if they want to reach out.

1436
01:26:25,286 --> 01:26:28,036
And learn more from your resources.

1437
01:26:29,306 --> 01:26:34,076
The number one thing I spend my days
doing, way too much of my day, in fact,

1438
01:26:34,216 --> 01:26:36,356
is running this website, HumbleDollar.

1439
01:26:36,386 --> 01:26:36,736
com.

1440
01:26:36,736 --> 01:26:40,716
I've been running it since year end 2016.

1441
01:26:42,766 --> 01:26:45,916
I'm putting up one or two
new articles every day.

1442
01:26:46,256 --> 01:26:48,536
HumbleDollar is a community of people.

1443
01:26:48,801 --> 01:26:50,071
who are

1444
01:26:52,301 --> 01:26:56,531
heavily focused on retirement, either
near retirement or in retirement.

1445
01:26:56,931 --> 01:27:03,091
And what we try to do is talk
about the financial world with a

1446
01:27:03,511 --> 01:27:05,311
heavy dose of personal experience.

1447
01:27:05,321 --> 01:27:06,991
So a lot of the people who write for.

1448
01:27:07,386 --> 01:27:10,696
Humble dollar are not financial advisors.

1449
01:27:10,726 --> 01:27:16,076
They wouldn't be considered financial
experts, but they do have stories to tell.

1450
01:27:16,076 --> 01:27:19,386
As I say to my writers all the
time, you may not be an expert on

1451
01:27:20,006 --> 01:27:23,826
the financial world, but you are an
expert on your own financial life.

1452
01:27:24,196 --> 01:27:27,626
And so if you talk about things that
have happened to you personally, you

1453
01:27:27,626 --> 01:27:29,706
can talk about them with authority.

1454
01:27:29,946 --> 01:27:33,256
And so a lot of the articles on
Humble Dollar are people talking

1455
01:27:33,256 --> 01:27:37,036
about their own financial experiences
and what they learned from them.

1456
01:27:37,906 --> 01:27:38,236
Yeah, we

1457
01:27:38,236 --> 01:27:40,576
actually do the same thing on
our website, believe it or not.

1458
01:27:40,576 --> 01:27:41,456
I learned that from you.

1459
01:27:41,876 --> 01:27:45,166
We encourage folks in our
communities, send us guest blogs.

1460
01:27:45,606 --> 01:27:46,656
It gives them both...

1461
01:27:47,106 --> 01:27:52,866
The chance to process their mistakes and
tell people about what they're doing about

1462
01:27:52,866 --> 01:27:54,636
them so that people don't feel alone.

1463
01:27:55,146 --> 01:27:56,316
They learn from each other.

1464
01:27:56,576 --> 01:28:01,746
It is a community effort and your
resources were immensely helpful to me

1465
01:28:02,086 --> 01:28:03,736
and we hope we're helping our audience.

1466
01:28:04,036 --> 01:28:06,976
Jonathan, it's been a
pleasure talking to you today.

1467
01:28:07,496 --> 01:28:09,856
Thank you for spending your time with us.

1468
01:28:10,216 --> 01:28:14,796
I think you provided immense value
to our audience and I look forward

1469
01:28:14,796 --> 01:28:17,276
to seeing you at the Bogleheads
conference this fall in October.

1470
01:28:17,996 --> 01:28:19,146
I'll see you there, Bill.

1471
01:28:19,146 --> 01:28:20,666
And I enjoyed talking to you, Becky.

1472
01:28:20,676 --> 01:28:21,606
So thank you for your time.

1473
01:28:22,196 --> 01:28:23,016
Thank you.

1474
01:28:23,376 --> 01:28:23,796
Enjoyed

1475
01:28:23,796 --> 01:28:24,006
it.