Tiffany(00:00):
All right, folks, we are here with Dylan Spradlin. I've been very excited for this conversation. So we are gonna dive in. We have so much to talk about. Dylan, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about you and your practice as it now stands.
Dylan(00:15):
I am a premium fee private pay play therapist, private pay play therapist. Wow. That's hard to say. I'm a synergetic play therapist and I also am certified in N rm. I help kids and parents and families here in Missoula, Montana. I'm a licensed social worker.
Tiffany(00:34):
Beautiful. Okay. We're gonna talk about your journey, raising fees, becoming a better clinician as a result, and also the, like, the ups and downs that come with the process of raising fees. Sound good?
Dylan(00:46):
Yeah, sounds great.
Tiffany(00:48):
Okay, so take us back to like March, 2023 before you started your money work, at least in Lim. What, tell us a little bit about what was going on in your practice in the day to day.
Dylan(01:01):
Well, bef when I started li I was actually working in a group practice. And it was, I, I thought I was doing fine. I was getting a lot of clients just to kind of funnel to me, and I was planning, I was a candidate at that time. I had just graduated the fall before or the summer before. And I went straight into private practice and got nobody that summer after I graduated. And I was, I was a nanny and I had to get client. I didn't have any income once that child started kindergarten in the fall. So I started in this group practice and lots of clients just coming my way. And so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna start limb because I knew I didn't wanna take insurance. I had been in practice before, 'cause I have two master's degrees. That's a whole other story, .
Dylan(01:59):
And I figured, okay, well I'll just stay in the group practice until I get all my hours and then I'll move. So I was gonna do limb and then move after, but then a lot of things happened in that group practice that weren't okay, and it made me need to take a hasty retreat. And and limb was crucial to helping me do that well. And I had a community, I had support and I knew what I was gonna do and how I was gonna do it because of limb. And so I joined in March and I moved outta the group practice in May of that same year.
Tiffany(02:40):
Let me ask you something. You were in a group practice, you were not yet licensed, correct? Correct. what do you think it was that gave you the presence of mind to say, I need to do this money work, figure out my fees before you're even licensed?
Dylan(03:03):
Well one, when I saw your reels, I knew, I knew I had my own money issues. I'd been working on my own money issues for a long time, but I still was struggling to make enough money. I always struggled with money. I had never in my life made more than $3,000 a month. I've never brought home more than $3,000 a month. I thought that was normal, that that's kind of like the average that people made. But it wasn't enough. So it was just a struggle. And I, I believed what you said, and I, I think if you, I don't know if you remember, but I was really hesitant because I had been bought and gullible by programs before selling me something that I believed. And so I saw, I took your free five day webinar and it sounded really good, and I was like, yeah, this is what I need.
Dylan(04:02):
But I'm like, I'm not gonna be bought, I'm not gonna be scammed this time. And then you stayed with me through email, back and forth, and you asked the right questions and you talked to me and you weren't, you were, you were really authentic with me. And I'm like, I think this is real. This is real. And, and I really do need to work on my money stuff. There is stuff there. And so I knew I needed to figure that out before I got into my own private practice so that I could do it right and not have the same experience of going into private practice straight outta school, like what happened and not have anybody bite and just be sitting there with no clients. I never wanted that to happen again. That was terrifying.
Tiffany(04:50):
Can you say, so this happened to you before?
Dylan(04:52):
Yeah.
Tiffany(04:53):
Can you say a little bit about what that, what your experience was like the first time around?
Dylan(04:59):
Okay. Well, so there's two first times, because I was in private practice in Washington. I was at part-time with an agency and part-time in my own practice, and I was charging 125 with no insurance. That was because I couldn't take insurance because I had to have a lower credential. And I, I didn't have very many clients. It was probably like two or three a week, so it was more like a hobby practice. But this time around when I came outta school, I was gonna go straight into private practice. I had a website. I, I had no idea how to market myself. I just kind of expected clients would roll in, you know, like I put out my shingle and clients would find me Psychology today that's, and I, nothing mm-hmm . And I just had this pit in my stomach like, oh, they're not coming and I don't have any income, and my nanny job is gonna end because it August 30th, that kid's going to school and I have no income. And, and we needed income. And right about that time I saw an ad for accepting therapists at this group practice, and it seemed like the dream. And but yeah, for two months I had no clients come in with this brand new private practice. And I didn't know, I mean, I was relatively new in Missoula and like, I had no network. I had no anybody, but I didn't know what to do.
Dylan(06:26):
Yeah. As far as like marketing or like finding people Yeah.
Tiffany(06:31):
I'm thinking about the, how you describe the pit in your stomach, which I have
Dylan(06:34):
. Yeah.
Tiffany(06:35):
And also you had a hard stop. Like this kid is going to kindergarten. Like you have to figure
Dylan(06:39):
I know your income. Yeah. There's like no income and like, I need an income. Yeah.
Tiffany(06:45):
What when you were at the group practice and you had a plan to stay there and slowly build up your practice on the side, what were some signs for you that like, this is not gonna, I can't stay at this group practice. I have to do some, I have to go on my own.
Dylan(07:00):
They, they had part-time at 20 clients a week, and I, and eight minutes between clients and I did play therapy. And that was barely enough time to clean up the room, let alone, I mean, they were dirty toys because kids would play with them with their snotty little hands and, and I couldn't even pee or take a snack or anything before the next client was there. And so I had about 26 to 29 clients a week. And some of them were kids and some of them were adults. I didn't get to, I mean, I got to say no, I got to refuse clients if they said, but I didn't get to pick, you know, like, I only want this I could have, I guess, but then I would be really limited. And at that time I liked having a well-rounded lots of people so I could have more experience.
Dylan(07:53):
But there was some other situations that I don't wanna go into, but some issues that I had with the management that I didn't think was very ethical. Maybe it wasn't ethical. It was just pretty controlling, I guess that I didn't, like for me, it set off my red flags. And I have zero tolerance for disrespect, like zero. So I'm like, Uhuh, I'm not doing that. I'm outta here. Bye. And I was gone within three weeks at the first time. I, I like honestly don't know how people stay there.
Tiffany(08:30):
Well, I mean, that's, I think, I think about how so many therapists, like the boy, like that frog in boiling water, like things kind of just get worse. Yeah. And then they kind of tolerate more and more nonsense. And you, it sounds like you're the kind of person who wants, you can identify nonsense. You're like, I gotta get out. I can't, I'm not staying here. Yeah.
Dylan(08:44):
I was there seven months. Yeah.
Tiffany(08:46):
Okay. Yeah. So you went into your own practice, you were like, okay, gotta get out again. You had support to figure out how to transition out. Yep.
Dylan(08:53):
First
Tiffany(08:54):
At this stage, went into your private practice. What fee were you initially charging in this new situation?
Dylan(09:03):
I started at 200, but I offered half of that for six months to any clients that came with me from the group practice. Mm-Hmm . So I had 17 of my 23 clients at the time come with me. They didn't all stay for very long because after a while they're like, no, I can't leave. And then at the six month mark, many of them left when I was gonna raise their fee to 200. Okay. And that was okay because by then I had had more, I got more clients in but not enough because that was the fall where I thought I was gonna do good. And that fall just kind of nose dived into like, I don't have any clients now. .
Tiffany(09:43):
Yes. Okay. This is, so let's get into this a little bit, actually. Let me see. We're gonna, this could be a little bit of a different episode because we're gonna be talking about the ups and downs. Like, it's not a straight journey for most people. Not at all. So you brought people from your group. You were charging them a hundred per session. You knew ultimately your, your fee was gonna be 200 as the six month mark was getting close and people are leaving. Then as the year, what was coming and you were realizing like, oh, this fee's gonna go up. What feelings did you have around? Yeah.
Dylan(10:18):
So first of all, that was like November, October, and I felt like, oh, I need to slow down this raising because it's right at the holidays. Hmm. And I don't wanna raise fees right at the holidays. So I think I raised it like $25 and then it will go up to full fee in March. So I like slowed it down. And so some of those people are like okay, I'll stay through the holidays and then I'll, I'll leave one person left, because that was the same time that a lot of the student loans started kicking back in. And so I have to pay my student loans now, so I gotta leave. So there's a bunch of reasons why some people just started drifting away right about that fall. And I, I felt I had some new, new clients that were paying the full fee as well. But like only like two or three.
Dylan(11:21):
And yeah, I was, I was worried that I was gonna lose my clients. Yeah. And I didn't have a way, like, I hadn't been really networking. I had been meeting some therapists locally to meet them individually in person. And I felt like that was well received with the people that I had met. But otherwise I hadn't really been marketing. And I hadn't gotten any bites on psychology today. So I just felt like, yeah, psychology today is not for anybody who's private pay in this area. It's just not. And it was that same pit in my gut, like, this isn't gonna work. But through the summer it felt like, this is gonna be great. I was getting a couple people coming in, it's like, this is just gonna keep going, then my clients are gonna raise their fee and then it's all gonna be good.
Dylan(12:14):
And I loved my space. I felt confident. I had a new certification that I was doing that I loved. So I was really on the upswing with my own development and feeling really good. But then the fee raises came and I was learning how to talk to clients about their fees. So I felt internally really good about what to do, but about them staying. Mm-Hmm. I didn't feel good about it. Mm-Hmm. Like, I just didn't feel confident about them. Some of them weren't in my niche, you know, there were the people that came from the group practice, so it was like, oh, there's just gonna be some filtering out mm-hmm . And so I didn't know what I was gonna do if they didn't stay.
Tiffany(12:56):
So the, the, the, the natural filtering out that occurs when you are bringing people along who aren't really like your perfect client, they're not the people who are gonna prob probably be paying any therapist $200. They're probably the kind of client who are looking for a deal. Ultimately.
Dylan(13:12):
I wouldn't, I wouldn't actually say that. I would just say that we weren't, like I was, I was heading into a niche market and they could tell that I was going for kids and families and they, they got me as a therapist for any old therapist Yes. At the group practice. And they came with me because they were already with me. Yeah. And then I went private pay, and they're like, maybe I wanna go with somebody who takes my insurance. Uhhuh . But
Tiffany(13:45):
Yeah. What, so for folks listening you have this, you're doing all this personal growth, you're doing all this money work, you're clear about what your fees are gonna be, you're making these transitions, and then you get into a place where the filtering is starting to happen. People are starting to leave. You're starting to refine who you're working with, what that looks like for folks listening, talk in, in, in whatever ways you wanna talk about this, your broader financial situation. Were you in a position where you could lose all your people and you are, all your family brings enough money that you can blast for six months near and shaking your head. So talk a little bit about what it means, what it was meaning for you to be making this leap, this financially,
Dylan(14:25):
This. So when I started in private practice, I'm gonna back up a little bit what it was like. In our personal lives, I am with my husband. My daughter's grown and gone. A little bit of more backing up. So I have two master's degrees. I'm highly specialized. I'd spent the last year, year and a half, getting year long certifications, very specialized. I feel like I know what the I'm doing. I am very good at it. And also, I'm a DHD and autistic, and I'm non-binary. My husband just also got diagnosed A DHD and autistic. He has some other mental health stuff going on. And he just started he didn't just start, he's in he just graduated actually. But he's in school for his fine arts degree and is one of the reasons we moved to Missoula. And so he was in school full-time and he was also working full-time at a retail job in the mall.
Dylan(15:34):
And he, that was putting him into a mental, mental health crisis, doing all of that stuff. And when he found out he was autistic I'd kind of been telling him like, that job is not good for you, because it wasn't like working under fluorescent lights and having to mask all the time. But he didn't know that that's what was happening until he did. And then it was like, I can't do this. And I'm like, you can't. 'cause He was going into a mental health crisis every end of semester when stuff was coming due. And, and that was hard on me as well. Like, I was having to take care of all of the house and all of him and all, you know, and it was really, really hard. And so one of my goals was be able to make enough so that he could quit his job, because that would be easier on all of us if he could just focus on school and working on his art.
Dylan(16:25):
And so I felt like through the summer, things were going really well. Once I got into private practice well enough that, and confident enough that he could do that. And like, okay, we're, I'm gonna be raising my fees this fall and it's going to be even better. And I don't think we even have a choice. You have to quit your job because you're, you're in a crisis twice a year. And so you have to, so we're get, we have to make this work. So he did. And then like, I lost all my clients all but like five. And so we, we lived off of our heloc, our line of credit to our house. And we were using the line of credit to pay the line of credit as well as to pay the mortgage and any, like, the car broke down.
Dylan(17:21):
And we used that to pay for, we didn't have any emergency savings. We didn't have we weren't, we, I wasn't making anything to put aside for travel to put aside, like, my daughter lives in another country, Canada, it's not that far away, but like, it takes a lot to get to her. And so like we were meeting our bare bones basic needs kind of, except for having to dip into this HELOC to make the mortgage. And so it felt really scary. And we had been there before a few times in our mar like our 13 years together, and we'd figured it out and got through it and did something else. And but we're really, really tired of struggling. Yes. Like super tired of struggling. And honestly, it was one of, one of the reasons that got me out of the group practice was something that was said in a call on limb where somebody said, I'm making 10 grand a month and it's just not enough.
Dylan(18:23):
And it was like this, like, what, what am I doing here? That's what people make. And it's not enough. I'm just making 3000 and it's not enough. But I thought that's what people made. Anyway, so , like, so I'm it was a huge mindset shift for me. And so here we are now making enough. And I lost a lot of clients. No new clients were coming in. We were in financial crisis. And so along comes this ad on Instagram or Facebook that spoke to me where these, this company was a do it for you coaching company where they would do all the background stuff, do all the ads for you set it all up for you. All you had to do was build your course and then you could sell it for five grand for a 13 or 12 week course.
Dylan(19:20):
And I'm like, I could teach parents all this stuff. I could totally do a course for parents and boom, I could make some bank right now that would be so easy. Like in three months we could make bank and bank. And so in September I signed up with them. It was $17,000. This was 20 grand, but they gave me a $3,000 discount. And we had that in the heloc. My husband and I talked about it, and we felt like it was worth the investment because by the end of the year, we could be making this money. And we needed to because we were in crisis. And I didn't know what else to do because I didn't know how to get clients yet. And the private practice wasn't doing what I thought it was gonna be doing fast enough. And it seemed like a dream.
Dylan(20:10):
So I signed up with them and I worked really hard to build this course. It didn't happen in three months, of course, it didn't happen in three months. It took like six months to build the courses. And then we started the ads. I didn't have any money to pay for the ads, so I was maxing out the HELOC and I ran outta money to pay the ads. And I'm like, I don't have any more money to pay the ads, and I haven't sold any of these courses. And they're like, well, sorry. Sometimes that happens. Bye. And I'm like, you, . So now a year had gone by and I still didn't have enough clients. We were still in crisis, and now the HELOC is maxed out, so we don't have anything. So this was the next summer .
Tiffany(20:58):
What year are we in at this point? We
Dylan(21:00):
Are in 2024. Summer.
Tiffany(21:01):
Yes. Summer
Dylan(21:02):
2024. And I'm like, Tiffany , I'm in crisis. And Tiffany's like, come back to limb. I'll set you straight for three months. Just come back to limb for three months. And you graciously gave that to me. You gave me three months in limb on the house. And I'm like, oh my God, thank you so much. So I came back into limb and and honestly it was like a fountain just, just came into my practice. I, I got, like, I did, I got the support that I needed. I got a community. The community was back with like, I knew the people in there and the, the support was like, shutter that business, put your focus back on private practice that you got out of order that wasn't stable before you turned your attention off it. Mm-Hmm . And here's what you need to do, and here's some marketing strategies.
Dylan(21:57):
And the do the, and I refurbished my website. I learned SEO, which I didn't know, and I only learned the basics of SEO. I didn't spend any money on it. I got the free things. And I sent out, like I did some marketing locally, just went out in the street and visited some places with referral people that would refer clients to me. And within like two months, I had upped my income enough to live off of. And then February I had broke 10 K for the first time in my whole life. So this
Tiffany(22:39):
Is this year 2025, right?
Dylan(22:40):
Yeah. And guess what? Yes. It wasn't enough. ,
Tiffany(22:46):
We told you. This is wild. This is, okay. So, so to slow this down for a minute, you made these changes. You were like, I gotta let my husband stop working at this place. It's not good for his mental health. It's the summer. Or it's like 20 23, 20 24 ish. Things start not going as you want. You are, you, you were in financial like crisis and you said, I'm gonna take the risk to use money for my HELOC to invest in this program to kind of like create a second business Yeah. Before getting things right in your first business. Yeah. You realize, okay, that that didn't work for me. I need to, and maybe the company sounds a little like they didn't deliver on their promise. And so you went back and focused on the foundations of your practice. And you went from never making more than three K or barely to making, now you're at 10 KK you're at least 10 your first 10 K month.
Dylan(23:47):
Yeah. How has in less than six months,
Tiffany(23:49):
In six months, how has life shifted? How are you different as a person, a clinician in this world where you're now making $10,000 a month?
Dylan(24:01):
Well I raised my fee too. That was one of the first things I did in the fall is I raised my fee by $25. None of my clients batted an i nobody was like, okay,
Tiffany(24:11):
Wait, so it's 2 25 now, or that's Yep.
Dylan(24:14):
2 25 now. And I actually, I just changed it on my website to 300, but I don't have any clients at 300 yet. Matter
Tiffany(24:20):
Of time,
Dylan(24:21):
Matter of time. I haven't changed that with any of my current clients. I think I'm gonna keep them where they are. Yeah. And just any new clients that come in. So so what happened was in the fall of 2024, when I made the shifts, put my attention back on my practice, put life back into it, focused on it, raised my fee, I lived into that fee. I, I joined a gym. I felt like I was better as a clinician. Like, oh, I'm at 2 25 now. I showed up more than when I was feeling like I was in financial crisis. Even if it was at 200, I felt like I was present. I mean, I was still cleaning the toys between sessions and doing the work that I do between clients, but there was a little bit of less color in, you know, I don't know how to put it.
Dylan(25:20):
But I know when I raised my fee and I invested more into myself and into my practice, I felt like I was better at it. And I think that will continue to happen, just like I live into it. I have to live into my, my fee. And I think the clients are doing better work. I think the kids are always doing their great greatest work, but the, the parents are doing better work. And it feels, I feel more accomplished. Like at home, we're able to relax more even, I mean, things aren't, aren't hor like people say 10 KI don't know if there's therapists listening to this, that probably sounds like, oh my God, that's a dream. But like, I'm making a thousand dollars payment on my HELOC every month. I'm still not putting money into a travel fund. I can't afford to go visit my daughter this year.
Dylan(26:20):
Like our car is on its last legs and we don't have money to repair it. Like, it's still hard. That's because like 45% of everything iron goes back into the business for trainings for businesses, expenses and taxes. So like that's a a lot. There's not that much left to live on. Yeah. And I think a lot of people might hear the total and think that's so much, but I know a lot of therapists who are taking insurance, maybe some of them don't even put taxes away and they don't put money back into their business because they don't have enough to do that. Yeah. So but it does feel good when I, when I get caught in this feeling of scarcity, like, oh, I wish I could go see my daughter this summer. I really wish I could. And I can get choked up about that, but I'm not dipping into any savings or any credit to make our ends meet anymore.
Dylan(27:23):
And we used to have to do that. I don't have to do that anymore. We have a system where we put what we want to buy on a whiteboard, and when we finally get it, we cross it off. And it makes me feel like, yeah, we actually bought that. We didn't go into debt for that. And it feels good. And you know, someday, you know, I get, I have spots open for clients and I want that. And I don't wanna have more than 16 clients in a week. And I, I don't have that right now. So there's more work to be done, but I'm meeting, meeting our needs with just my income.
Tiffany(28:04):
What, what, this is just, just a Tiffany Dylan question. , what would you have to, what would have to happen for you to be able to fly to visit your daughter this year? Not that it's gonna happen, but what would have to happen?
Dylan(28:20):
Well, if it was just me a lot less we usually drive, it's a, it's a, oh, you drive? Yeah. It's a, it's a probably nine hour drive to the border and then a ferry. And the ferry is like $184. Okay. Round trip. But if both of us go, then there's lodging. Like if it's just me, I can stay in their trailer, which is tiny, that's on their property. But my husband's six three . So if he comes, we buy lodging, which is seven to $800. And we can't bring our dogs. 'cause They have a high prey driver, one of them does. And they have chickens on the farm, so that's $700 to get a pet sitter on our house. And and so it just takes the whole cost of going up a whole bunch
Tiffany(29:09):
And time off. And you also,
Dylan(29:10):
And then it's time off from work. It's like two grand for the week that I'm not working. So yeah. It, it takes a lot.
Tiffany(29:19):
So what, one of the, one of the reasons I'm thinking you do this or don't, Dylan, but I'm like, I would like to see that math in a help us help you post like, what's the math, lay it all out and then we can think about like, not that you need to, and you maybe you'll go spend that money on something else, but what would it take? How, how many more clients? Right,
Dylan(29:34):
Right. Yeah, for just me to go visit my daughter, it would take about $2,500.
Tiffany(29:42):
But, but you want your husband to come?
Dylan(29:43):
Yeah, I do. I, so, so that would be about, that would be about 3,500.
Tiffany(29:47):
Okay. Good to know. Good to have that number. Okay.
Dylan(29:50):
I've certainly done that math .
Tiffany(29:51):
Yeah. Okay, good. You know it. Okay. That's, that's really helpful. Okay, so what would you say, let's say there's a therapist listening right now. I know there is, I know you're listening right now. A therapist who is like, wants to take the leap, but she's thinking I can't afford to do it. If it doesn't work out, I'm gonna be in like the direst of financial straits. And I bet that's not even gonna be as dire Dylan as your financial traits, but at least how it feels for her is like, this will never work, so I'm just gonna stay in this like group practice or this insurance situation because that's easier than the struggle. What would you say to her?
Dylan(30:37):
I would, I would say list out what kind of struggle you're used to in the insurance part. Like, I hear stories of not getting paid for 18 months or more by the insurance companies, the different codes that you have to fudge your notes to fit the different diagnoses. So you have to lie maybe, or just skew them somewhat to make, and like, I can't do that. Like, I'm not ever gonna do that. So that's one reason I don't. So like what kind of stress does that put on your body? What kind of, where do you compromise your integrity? What is that struggle when you're with insurance? I think those are the two biggest, like, because I never, I haven't taken insurance when I was with the group practice, they did all that. So I, I don't know. I hear stories about how stressful it is to deal with the insurance.
Dylan(31:49):
Like what is that struggle? And having the freedom to work the way I want to work. I'm way out of the box therapist, so I just wanna do what I want, what I do. And like, I'm not woo, I don't wave crystals at people, but I'm very intuitive and being able to practice the way that feels that I feel called to, with, with the client that I'm with is so important. And so how it's more freeing, I guess what, what I would ask her is yeah, what kind of struggle are you already in? Like what, what calls you to that? Not taking insurance in the first place, what is that versus where's your already struggling? And then look at which struggle seems like more struggle. Hmm. And how can you mitigate the struggle of no insurance? Like there's things you can do. I'm still learning like Oh yeah, stakeholders, .
Tiffany(33:06):
Yeah, . The things you can do. We talk about that in limp folks. If you're like, what's stakeholders? That's for you for another day. Yeah.
Tiffany(33:13):
There's something, oh man, what were you saying here? I, I really appreciate Dylan. You're saying something about staying on insurance or taking low fees and seeing 30 people a week and you know, having a spouse who has a job that is not good for them. Like that all comes at a cost. Oh
Dylan(33:29):
Yeah. That struggle. 26 clients a week, eight minutes between clients. Oh,
Tiffany(33:35):
Right. But what we're hearing from you is like, this year and a half of like trying a thing, going off course coming back like that is also a struggle. But what I'm hearing from you is like let me back up even a moment more. Sometimes people, therapists say, okay, I wanna do this cash pay thing and I wanna have my practice filled in three months. Is that gonna happen or not? And it's like, whether it takes three months or a year and a half where you're at Dylan now 10 K months, making these new connections, understanding things about marketing. Your husband is no longer working in this fluorescent light place. He's graduated. It's been a huge struggle, but it's gotten you here versus the struggle of insurance where you're still in the same, you would've been in the same place you were at two years ago in that group. Eight minutes be like, they're both hard. But like one is leading you to a, a, a present life that fulfills you where you can do your work intuitively, where you can really show up as you want. It's like a, both are hard, but one has a very different outcome. A very different possibility.
Dylan(34:33):
Yeah. I'm more myself. I'm more authentically me. I'm practicing the way I want to. And all of that learning has deepened who I am, myself and who I am as a clinician. If I didn't do any of it, how, how would I be me? Like I would just be stuck on a hamster wheel.
Tiffany(35:04):
I love the integrity. Like when you're talking about I was, I was, I was having a question and you actually answered it, which is when you were really struggling financially, like you weren't making ends meet, you had to go into the heloc. You're in a town, you're in a city where a lot of therapists are on insurance or maybe take really low fees. And I was wondering why not just, I'm sure there's a lot of pressure you have to just like, just get on insurance, just be a low fee therapist. H how have you kind of resisted resisted doing what all your peers are doing and going your own path?
Dylan(35:37):
Well it's just never a question because I, I know that I can't just give every kid adjustment disorder . I just can't do that. I, there's some people that come in here that don't have a diagnosis, they're doing personal growth, or it's a parent child relational problem that doesn't get insurance. Doesn't like that. And I, I won't lie and I won't bend to the insurance racket. I, I deeply believe insurance is a systemic problem that keeps therapists down and that it's part of the whole systemic problem of oppression in our world. Like I, I am an activist and I know that part of the problem that therapists have with private pay therapists, I've heard it before, it was posted in one of our professional group things here in our locally, is that if we don't take Medicaid, then we are not serving our disenfranchised populations, then you're not doing your job.
Dylan(36:52):
And I'm like, you don't have any idea who I serve? You . That was a gesture for listeners say, which one? But, but I think that you're colluding with the system when you take insurance. I mean, I, I think that right now there has to be some people that do. And you know, if that's in your integrity and that's what you wanna do, do it. Great. I know that there is a play therapist here locally that sees 40 kids a week back to back. I'm like, I have no idea how you do that, because I certainly wouldn't be able to at the depth and attunement that I see kids with, I have to come back to myself between sessions and it takes a little while. And also I sanitize all the toys that kids touch. So, well, not the cloth once, but I, like, I couldn't do that.
Dylan(37:48):
But I, I also see reduced fee clients. I see, well, there's three now, but and one I've been seeing for two years, like that was kicked off Medicaid two years ago in May, and the deductible of their parents' insurance is so freaking high, they can't use their insurance anyway. And they, they have been seeing me and they've been doing amazing work. And like, so I know that people judge me and they have no idea who my clients are. And also I am part of a small group of my colleagues and we are making a collective of stigma free mental healthcare to do trainings and workshops and get fundraising and to give back and make an impact in the marginalized groups. But we're building that and we've had like four or five meetings to create that. So that like, so there's other ways to give back. There's other ways to make an impact for those groups. You don't have to do it and compromise your own wellbeing. And that I think that there's some therapists that just sort of, this is the way it always is. And so this is the way it always has to be. And so we don't think out the side, the box and we don't know that there's another way. And I, I, I don't remember what your question was, .
Tiffany(39:26):
Well, what I'm hearing, I love how you're, how you're, the way you're talking about this and you, you raised something that I have never consciously thought about before, maybe even I've never thought about it before, which is you're saying Tiffany, when I work on insurance panels or if I have to, I have to be giving these children or adults diagnoses that are not true or that are pathologizing and I refuse as a clinician that is outside of my integrity, even if it's just for paperwork, even if it's just to get money. I as a person cannot compromise my integrity or the integrity of my clients. That's mind blowing to me. Like, like you are refusing to pathologize them and insurance is gonna force you to put these kids in a box that is then gonna travel with them. But even if I didn't travel with them, it's a way of thinking that even if you're doing it behind closed doors, you're like, I'm not gonna think about my kids even behind closed doors in the way that this, I'm getting goosebumps in the way this insurance company is requiring me to think about them in order to get paid.
Tiffany(40:22):
That's out. That's remarkable. And so much integrity.
Dylan(40:26):
And so if, if one of my clients requests me to, because they wanna submit a super bill, I will. But I will tell them, I am making this diagnosis for you to submit to your insurance. Mm-Hmm . I'm not doing it for me to do it.
Tiffany(40:42):
Yeah. I appreciate it. So
Dylan(40:44):
Yeah, lemmeTiffany(40:45):
Take just a minute. This has been such a moving conversation. Like you are definitely, you're like, I'm not in the box, Tiffany. I'm gonna figure out how to do things my own way even when it's hard. And I imagine that, like I can hear in your clinical work how that also shows up and allows you to help your kids and families experience transformation. Talk to me a little bit about just a little bit about your upbringing, like kind of your identities and how that has shaped the kind of person you've become and the kind of clinician you are.
Dylan(41:18):
Like upbringing, like how I was raised in my parents? Yeah. Like
Tiffany(41:21):
In terms of, you said earlier, maybe this is why I'm thinking about it. You said I'd never made more than 3000 and I just thought that was everybody. So like kind of what was socioeconomic situation, how did that inform going into practice and
Dylan(41:33):
Yeah. My parents were educators. So they were both teachers when my sister and I were little. And eventually my, when I was still pretty little, my dad became an administrator in the Seattle schools. But you know, that doesn't pay much. So we had a professional academic mindset, but no money to back that up. Hmm. So I, I think some people call that working class striving or like I don't know. I don't know how to describe it really. But we had lots of intellectual discussions at the table and stuff, but we didn't have a lot of money in our family. So there was a lot of making do and hand sewn clothes and yeah, we just didn't have a lot of stuff. And my mom stopped working. She was a stay home mom and she went back to school to get her early childhood degree.
Dylan(42:33):
She was a high school teacher before and she went back to school to get her early childhood degree when we were 10, 11, 12. And worked in K through second grade and our income level in our house got went up when she started working. So we got more stuff. Mm-Hmm . , I remember this shift. But I like the money messages I grew up with were like my, my parents would say the money will be there when you, when you need it. Like, there was some faith based, like they, they believed in spirit. They believed in God, not in a fundamentalist way, but in a good left wing way. And so there was a lot of trust. Money will be there when you need it, and it usually was in some weird way. But there was a lot of struggle. We just struggled.
Dylan(43:27):
We just didn't have a lot of stuff. And then, so I just, I didn't have a lot of experience with wealth. Like my parents taught me, don't, don't go into debt if you get a credit card, pay it off at the end of the month. And they didn't taught me, teach me, teach me about investments or anything like that. And so growing up I just kind of had this feeling like, okay, well this is kind of a normal income. Like, I babysat, I was a nanny, worked in daycares, and so that was kind of the average that I made was around 3000 brought home. And I figured, oh, there's, there's people that have a, a lot, like there's poverty, they have a lot less, and there's people who are way wealthy. They have a lot more, but average is about this this felt normal. And it was just mind blowing to find out that's not average. Like, I don't know, like people who go on trips all the time, are they really good with money or really bad with money? I don't know.
Tiffany(44:35):
, it's like this watching you describe this and even, I'm thinking even of the value of being in a program like limb even just for the being around people who are thinking differently. There was like this paradigm shift you had in your recent adulthood where you, your mind was suddenly blown. Like no, the people who are like middle class, they're not 3000 k middle class. They might be bringing in 20,000 a month as a couple. That's what, yeah. And like, really like your eyes open. Holy smokes. Yeah.
Dylan(45:06):
I had to adjust the internal numbers in my head and it was, it was a real, like in the mo like I'd done a lot of internal money work, but like I needed that big shift of like, oh, oh, this, this group practice is paying me $40 for every client hour. What am I doing here? Wow. I have two master's degrees in this field. An MFT degree and an msw. I'm, I'm making three grand a month working my off. Hell no, I'm moving, I'm leaving. I'm making 200 an hour. Goodbye.
Tiffany(45:51):
And you, like, once you knew, once you had it, you like popped into a different reality, you popped into a different paradigm and then you started making decisions that were in line with this new reality, which is like, oh, 10 K is a minimum. And probably more like you just started making different decisions once you realized there was a different reality possible.
Dylan(46:08):
Yeah. Yeah. 'cause I started thinking, okay, so my husband said, when I talked to him about this mind shift, I said, oh yeah, you've been selling outta your own pocket. And I'm like, what's that? He's like, oh, you, you've been assuming other people can afford what you can afford. I'm like, that's exactly what I've been doing. I can't charge 200 because I'd never be able to afford that. And that made so much sense. I'm like, oh. 'cause Other people actually can afford 2 25. Yes. Yeah. And I also remember that I don't wanna make assumptions about what people can afford. Yes. I have a client who is very dedicated, who is a working class mom and has a working class husband and they have an inheritance and they're choosing to spend it on their son Yes. And his mental health. Yes. And like, I don't want any therapist out there to assume that they know what their clients or any client looking for therapy has available to them. Even if they want to use their insurance and they prefer to use their insurance. Everybody knows fit is best. So maybe they have access to funds that you don't know about.
Tiffany(47:30):
Right. And they're not gonna necessarily put that all on the table if you're saying your, you take insurance or your fee is $90. Yeah. They're gonna be like, by the way, I have a hundred thousand or 500 or $800,000 inherited. They're not gonna tell you that 'cause you didn't ask. It's not, you know. Right.
Dylan(47:44):
Exactly. I'm
Tiffany(47:46):
Gonna wrap. I we we're about to wrap up. But I do wanna come back to something you said earlier, which was really interesting. You talked about investing in limb and how you were like, this is this gonna be a scam. And I've made mistakes before when investing in business building or other things. You also talked about this program that made these huge promises, like, you'll be able to sell out your 5K online program. We'll do everything magic, which didn't come to fruition. How now, and for folks listening who are like maybe never invested in a program because they, they, like you and me were afraid of getting scammed before. How do you now think about what makes sense to invest in when it comes to your business? Not trainings. Like I think therapists are comfortable investing in like EMDR training or like growing their profession. Sure. But in terms of business, how do you, how, what have you, what has your experience taught you about making investments in your business and how to do it wisely?
Dylan(48:40):
If somebody's promising something fast, it's a scam. I think that's probably the biggest key thing. And if they, yeah, if they're promising that they will do something for you and it's gonna take this amount of time and we promise don't believe that you never did that. So like li is like, we're gonna help you uncover your own money stuff and we're gonna help you get off the insurance panels and learn how to market your business. And I don't know, do you say you're gonna market? I we're doing that.
Tiffany(49:20):
We do now. This is new. We didn't used to
Dylan(49:21):
. I know you didn't used to, but tell, but okay, so good because that's what you're doing now. And I love it and I'm glad. But the, the discovering your unconscious processes and like how, how that's, that's on me. You're selling a program that I'm responsible for working that that's real because I can buy it and then sit there and do nothing, but that's me. But you're not promising a quick fix.
Tiffany(49:58):
I think that's helpful. Like, I still struggle with this sometimes. Like actually I just, I just encountered it last week where there was a therapist who joined this program and the program is saying, well fill up your whole practice, I think in 90 days cash pay. And I wanna believe I'm like, if that's true. Yeah. But I've literally, in all my seven years of teaching and like 10 years of learning business myself, I've never see if people have a quick fix, it was because they were already coming in with resources that we didn't know about. Maybe money to invest. Like you were talking about in all these Facebook ads, maybe they have their spouse is someone already in the field, so they have all kinds of networks. But like there's no, I I've never found a quick fix. But the allure, especially for working class folks of like a magical quick fix. It's so tempting. It's so tempting. But I haven't, I have yet to see it actually come to fruition.
Dylan(50:44):
Yeah. I don't, I it's, it's a business, like any business. And it takes time to build.
Tiffany(50:50):
That's
Dylan(50:50):
Right. And you gotta get to know your own business. Like I refined my niche as I went. It's different now than what it was last year. 'cause I've had clients come through and I'm like, oh, these are the clients that are finding me. These are the ones that love me. These are the ones that I work well with. So now I know even more what my niche is and I've refined my website a little bit and people are staying on it longer. I've noticed. I'm like, oh, okay, cool. I'm on to something here.
Tiffany(51:18):
You're paying attention. Who? So Dylan, I'm, I'm certain there are people listening right now, and folks, if you're listening, I'm, I'm talking to you who are like, they're in financial, like things are tight, but they're like, tight is safer than what you did Dylan. Like, huh? What you did is terrifying to them. But they're also, like, you asked the question earlier, what's making you curious about a cash pay practice? Like what's making you curious about this other route? So if there are folks who are like, I want, I wanna know something of what you did, of what you have inside of yourself, of how you made this leap even it was terrifying. Folks, I encourage you, if you're open, Dylan, I encourage you to reach out to Dylan and set up a consulta $500 minimum, like an hour consultation to meet with you and learn like how did you make it through? What allowed you to go from three K to 10 K? How did you survive and say to your husband, like, to support you, we're gonna quit this and I'm gonna be the primary or the sole earner while you go through this process, if folks, if you're listening and you're inspired by Dylan's story, Dylan, are you willing to to talk with people at a price consult? Yeah.
Dylan(52:18):
A hundred percent. Yep.
Tiffany(52:20):
I think people should reach out. What's your final thought, Dylan? When you have this person who's like, I wanna do it, but I'm terrified. Any final words for them before we wrap up?
Dylan(52:29):
Any, any edge that you have for growth is always going to feel terrifying. You are not gonna feel safe at your edge. Growth, the growth edge is gonna feel shaky. So I mean, don't wait till you feel safe.
Tiffany(52:46):
I love that. Like it is normalizing. Like if you're growing, it's gonna be scary. Like that's simple. Yeah. I love it. Where can folks find you?
Dylan(52:55):
My website is family insights therapy.com.
Tiffany(53:00):
Okay. And you have Instagram. Do you have that as part of your Yeah.
Dylan(53:04):
Yeah. Instagram is the same thing, but with a, a underscore between each word, family underscore insights underscore therapy.
Tiffany(53:11):
Perfect. And we'll link to these in the show notes as well, so folks can come find you. Dylan, thank you for sharing your story and also thank you for sharing like you're sharing the background of like, it doesn't all go smoothly. Like you invested the 17 k and learned a hard lesson, but you hard the other side. Right? Like you know more now and you can help people now because of what you've gone through.
Dylan(53:31):
Yeah. And that was so gratifying. Actually, we recently had a limb call where I shared my story and people messaged me after and said, that was so valuable for my business. And boy that kicked the rest of that shame spiral out the door.
Tiffany(53:44):
It's so good. Yeah. You learn that also for people like you learn that lesson and, and I'll say even monetarily when we think about the, you can charge more Dylan, I'll just say this both clinically, but also doing like therapist consulting because you've been willing to take the risks and go through the fire and come out the other side that is worth money, that experience those worth money. So thank you for taking the risk.
Dylan(54:06):
Wonderful. Thank you. That's great affirmation. Yes.
Tiffany(54:10):
Thank you.
Dylan(54:11):
Thank you so much for having me on.
Tiffany(54:13):
It's my pleasure, Dylan. It's my pleasure. I'm excited for this.