Brian 00:00:
It just got worse and worse, and people leaving, getting the wrong people hired into roles, and just the culture just got so, so bad.
Scott Anthony Barlow 00:09:
In 2007, I had changes in the company that I was working in at the time, that pretty much pushed me in the direction of apathy, like I pretty much didn't care, didn't feel connected anymore. And if this is something that's happened to you, then you're not alone. You're not even close to alone. According to a Gallup study, only 32% of US employees felt engaged at work in 2022. Companies seem to be losing their grasp on what employees actually want, or when they're rapidly restructuring and trying to make changes, and when they're trying to navigate the aftereffects of the pandemic, they're not being successful, many of them, most of them. So if you've been spending your time in a job that is very out of alignment with who you are, or maybe you're surrounded by people that just don't share the same values, they don't place value on the same things that you do, if this is the case, then you'll find that even if you enjoy your day to day job functions, and even if there's many other good things, you're probably going to fall quickly into the category of disengaged, that'll make you ready for a change whether you recognize it or not. And the good news is that, well, the number of engaged employees is extremely low, there are, in fact, organizations out there that have more than doubled this percentage. What does that mean? Well, there's organizations that actually care if you are feeling connected, and enjoying your work, and feeling engaged. Pretty cool, right? You just have to find them.
Brian 01:48:
Here's the 27 questions that could come up in an interview, and here's like all the canned responses. And it's like, no, let's just get to the values and virtues and get to what actually matters.
Scott Anthony Barlow 01:59:
That's Brian. He's been a leader who's done many things in his career, managing sales and marketing campaigns, leading teams for well over 20 years. His latest role was vice president of business development. And he'd always put an extreme importance on a company's values and culture. And he'd made many pivots over the years, and done a great job of driving towards companies and organizations that really aligned with what he wanted and what he believed. Pretty cool, right? Not everybody's done that. And currently, he was feeling very, very misaligned. When Brian contacted us here at HTYC, it just been looped into the latest round of company layoffs. For the first time, he no longer felt in control of his career. Very first time, right? And that made him pretty desperate to find a new role fast. And he was applying for all of these jobs, thinking he needed to find a bridge role. And that would allow him to take the time to find the job that he really wanted, that next step in his career. Here's what happened, though, fast forward a little bit, he started working with us, and he took a step back and realized that everything he was doing was motivated by stress and desperation and fear. He actually had a lot more buffer time than what he thought he did. And he could give himself some space to figure out what had gone wrong in his last role, and what an ideal fit would look like for him this time around. Okay, this is a really very fun interview. Partially because Brian is so self aware. And also Brian knows so much about what he wants. Take a listen, and I want you to particularly listen for how he used his ideal career profile, the tool, that super simple tool that we have embedded, and the seven elements of meaningful work, so that he could define exactly what he wanted and needed from his next organization to be able to thrive. By the way, the ideal career profile, and to break down the seven elements of meaningful work, those are two things that we detail out in our book– Happen To Your Career. So if you want to know more about them, you can go get the HTYC book, any place where books are sold. I highly recommend the audiobook if you're listening to this podcast. But back to Brian's story, here is where he starts out talking about his very first career pivot straight out of the studio recording industry and into the business world.
Brian 04:23:
So I had recently got married, the recording studio itself was not doing terribly well. And it started to cut my hours back. My wife got pregnant and I just looked at as, like, "this is not going to get it done. I got to do something else." My brother-in-law worked in an industry where he was a rep, calling on retail stores, going in training sales associates on software. And he was working for this company, and I had, like, no idea that these types of companies existed, where it's basically like temp agencies, but it's temp reps that get hired on to go be marketing reps to call on retailers to train on products. He's like, "He should just come work for our company." And like, well, "What is it you do?" And he's just like, "Well, they got a new contract for HP." Essentially, he was saying that they had this new Hewlett-Packard contractor that was coming along, where HP was going to launch PCs at retail. And this was in 1985, which rewind the tape just, like, Windows 95 was launching. So, a whole new ethical user interface. And HP, what they negotiated was that they were going to be the first PC manufacturer to market with Windows 95 actually installed on the computer, versus buying a computer then having it installed. So I got hired to launch HP and Windows 95 at the same time. And I remember, like, literally my first day of work, there was a line that people were waiting to talk to me about Windows 95 and PCs, and I had never touched one. And I just totally winged the whole thing for four hours, doing demos for people who like, well, there's a start button. So obviously, that's where we started. But I ended up, like, just working my butt off. And I learned a ton and just got promoted up and my managers fell in love with me. And before I knew it, it was like I started off on a team of 13. And within about four years, I had almost 1300 people working for me. And there's just a lot of that was just the tenacity of the "I want to make it better. I want to make it better for the field. I want to give the customers a better experience. I want to give the retailers a better experience." And just like drive and passion to let's make it better. That organization they sold off the business to another company, and they just lost their culture, it all became about profits and, you know, employees, whatever, customers, whatever, profit. And so, like, this was not a good fit for me culturally. I left to a much smaller company down in Southern California. They were doing about $4 million annually, but had a lot of autonomy in terms of what we're doing. I worked there as, originally, Director of Operations. I figured if I can get in and really learn the operations, I could really make a difference for everybody. I did that for a number of years. The particular owner was doing some unethical things. And I chose to leave because I just didn't want to get caught up in those things that were criminal, and decided I would start my own company. And I started by long enough to have a cup of coffee, quality assurance marketing, went out and got a couple of customers, a competitor of mine called and said, "We don't need one more competitor. Just come to work here. I'll let you do what you want to do." So I did. Originally came in as Director of Field Services, and the owner of that organization gave me a lot of autonomy. And he's just like, after about a year, he's just like, "You should just run the whole... I'm just gonna make you the Vice President of the retail services group, and you just run the business unit."
Scott Anthony Barlow 07:58:
Let me ask you about two things about that.
Brian 08:02:
Sure.
Scott Anthony Barlow 08:02:
One, when you're thinking back, and you're talking about autonomy, what did that mean for you at that time? What did autonomy look like, feel like, smell like, taste like?
Brian 08:14:
I think for me, the autonomy came in a couple of different forms. One was trust. That I had somebody that actually trusted me. But the other side of it was having the responsibility and accountability that now I need to go deliver because I have this person that trusts me to do this. And I have my customers that are trusting me, I've got these people that are employees trusting me, that's just like, I felt like I have got to do a great job. And therefore it's just like having that trust and responsibility and accountability, just like drove the passion in me of "We're gonna make this great."
Scott Anthony Barlow 08:52:
Yeah, very cool. Well, and here's why I'm curious because so many people want autonomy. I also recognize that when we ask 10 different people about what autonomy means to them, we very often get 10 unique and very different answers. So I was curious what that meant for you and what it meant for you at that time, too. Because it sounded like you refer to it fondly when you're thinking back to that time.
Brian 09:21:
Yeah, that was a fantastic time in my career for certain.
Scott Anthony Barlow 09:25:
So what happened from there?
Brian 09:27:
Yeah, so the owner ended up selling the company off to a company out in Georgia. And that autonomy, that just that entrepreneurial spirit that we had, it just wasn't there. I mean, this is a company that backed by a multibillion dollar industry. And it was more about process and systems and structure than it was about, let's just get in there and solve problems and, like, fix things for customers. And it just didn't have that kind of, like, the grittiness to it of let's solve problems versus the more rigid business. So for me, it just wasn't a good fit. But some of the previous team members that I had worked with had come to this company up here in Oregon. And actually, one of my former directors that had worked for me had called me and was just like, "Hey, we're getting the band back together." He's just like, "You should be here, too." So he ends up, "when we can do to talk?" And like six months later, he's just like, "We just need to get you here." And I ended up coming on at the time as director of business development. And I didn't know anything about business development, I had no business doing business development.
Scott Anthony Barlow 10:37:
I had no business doing business development, that's a saying. That should be on a t-shirt.
Brian 10:45:
But yeah, he's just like, "Look, we just need to get you. And once you're in, like, then we'll just figure out what we're gonna do." Probably about 18 months, and the CEO ended up eventually getting sacked by the board, they brought a new CEO in. She just drove the company in the ground, you get coke. I mean, it was just like one thing after another, and it's just like, the company just continued to flounder. I think it's about seven reps. I got promoted up a few times. I think there was the kind of getting promoted up through attrition of the "Hey, we let all these people go. Now who's going to run the hindsight?" "Here, you've been here a long time, why don't you do it?" And so there was some of that. There was just, we talked about, like, the autonomy and just trying to relate it back to that. There was none of that. It was just like gone, it was like, we're letting the following people go. And it's like, "I'd like to have a say someone who's staying and who's going." It's like, "No, we've already made the decision. Here's who's going." Anyway, fast forward over the course of about 18 months, and it just got worse and worse, and people leaving, getting the wrong people hired into roles. And just the culture just got so, so bad. And basically, the entire executive team all exited as she built her new team. And eventually, I got caught up in one of the layoffs. And that's what led to me actually working with HTYC. But it's like I sensed it was coming. And so it was like, "Okay, I gotta do something. I can't sit and wait." And so I just like started searching for podcasts, I walked my dog every morning, listened to podcasts, I'm a lifelong learner. And so while walking my dog every morning, I'm always trying to learn something new. Started listening to your podcast, and like, "I'll send the email. Sure."
Scott Anthony Barlow 12:23:
So, a couple of things that I'm hearing out of that. One, you have this really, I would say, fascinating track record of, it shows up as a theme here, where you're leaving every time there's not a value fit. And at this last time, it feels like, because I hear you tell the story, that it was a little bit different this time out. Because it sounded like you could see some of the writing on the wall. But I think the thing that's really interesting is this move feels very different for you than some of the other moves. How do you think about that now in hindsight?
Brian 13:00:
Yeah, that's a good question. So I think that there was this aspect of the, let's not too get caught up in ego. It's the, I think, for me, it was just like, I had been really pretty successful in my career, continue to get promoted up wherever I went from being a rep in the field to having a team around the globe, but it was like, I think it was just that I'm getting rejected kind of experience. And then there was the other side of it that was the "Oh crap. Now what?" This is like, I mean, I haven't really ever had to look for a job, right? So I mean, going back to like, talking about being in the recording studio early in my career, it's just like, one of the teachers of the school was like, "Hey, Brian, I know some guys. I'm gonna get you in." And it's like, and then I went and met with the owner studio. He's like, "Yes." He said, "You're a good guy. You're a good guy. Yeah, you're in." Because like, so it wasn't like I hadn't learned how do you interview and how do you find a job? I was like, "Hey, Steve, I need to get a job. Do you know anybody that would hire me?" He's like, "Yeah." And then, like to getting into this industry where my brother-in-law's "I'm going to help you get hired on. I know the manager. I'll get you the job." And so I was like, "Okay, cool." And then it's just like, from there, it was just like people in the industry is like, "You should come work here. I want to hire. Hey, come over here." It's just like, "You should be here." And it's just like, "Oh, yeah, I'm the guy." They want me, and then also I was like, "I'm not the guy, and I'm not wanted. Now what?" And so like that, like, start reality in the wake up of the "oh crap, now what" sort of a thing.
Scott Anthony Barlow 14:38:
What was that like to work through that? I've been there. I've been, as you put it, not the guy. I've been not the guy before. And I have definitely felt that rejection in a couple of different past times where the company now and I parted ways, and it was not my choice and it, I can't say that I have found where it feels fun, maybe there's a story out there where somebody's like, "Hey, this is fun. This is amazing, but I haven't seen it so far." So, for you personally, what did it look like to be able to work through that?
Brian 15:19:
I think, you know, one is I was grateful to have been that as a coach to work with and just kind of be a sounding board and is interesting, trying to find the right words, but it's just like there was part of it where, yeah, it was to help me with the career but it almost felt more like a life coach in Oregon with Ben in terms of just being the Star Trek, the ship's counselor, if you will.
Scott Anthony Barlow 15:46:
Yeah, absolutely. And for reference, Ben is a phenomenal coach on our team. And so you've got this ship's counselor. I love the tricky reference. And then what do you feel like that did for you? Or how did that help you work through this piece?
Brian 16:10:
I think that for me, it was the help. It was like a grounding cord. I went through just a lot of stress and anxiety of the "oh, now what" sort of a thing, and just being able to actually have somebody that can sit and it's like, "Okay, well, let's just play this out." Worst case scenario, you don't get a job in six months, what do you need to do, and just like, it's not as bad as I thought it was gonna be, you know, I was just kind of like, start making a list of all the things that I'm doing. It's like, I have time, this was like, I can figure this stuff out. It's not like that, "Oh, I'm going to die if I don't get this answer in the next 24 hours." It was, "I can make this work." And just take a breath, get grounded, and breathe. And I think and having that, as I started doing interview prep and applying for jobs, I think having more of like the being at peace and not being desperate, or for button a positive connotation, having confidence, I think that that translated to the way that I began to interview of the, "I'm going to interview you, yes, you're going to interviewing me too. I'm interviewing you. Make sure that you guys are going to be the right fit for me. Because if you're not, I know I'm not the right fit for you. Because it's not going to work." And I think working with Ben it helped him the confidence and moving in that direction. And I really think that it helped. It wasn't like, "Hey, let's do hard interviewing skills." And yeah, we did some of those types of things, but I think it was the underlying pinnings. And in the work that we're doing in terms of actually giving the confidence versus the "Here's the 27 questions that could come up on an interview. And here's like, all the canned responses." It was just like, no, let's just get to the values and virtues and get to what actually matters. And I think that actually began to translate.
Scott Anthony Barlow 18:03:
I want to ask you about that here, in just a moment, those values and virtues, and how you worked through those pieces. However, it's not lost on me that what I hear you describe in being able to have that grounding and be able to keep your focus on those areas prevented you from feeling desperate, which then prevented you from acting in interactions with other people as desperate. I will tell you that the first time I got, well, the first time I didn't really get laid off, I was actually hardcore fired, like, it was not a layoff situation. I told people initially because I was embarrassed that it was laid off, but really, I was fired because I was not doing a great job. And they should have fired me. That said, though, it felt very different. I didn't build, I didn't do what you did, I didn't like to go out and build a team or get expertise or anything like that. I very much spent a lot of time just reeling and feeling desperate and trying to do anything and everything, and consequently, I got a lot of turn downs as opposed to me turning down other people. So that part, as I was listening to you describe how that was, I was stressful for a solid two months, honestly. So that's really interesting. So let me ask you then, when you said a moment ago about, I wanted to focus on what was more important, like the values, what were you actually doing? What did the work for you look like at that point? And then how did that help you stay grounded?
Brian 19:43:
Yeah, I think the work that we're doing, like, with the ideal career profile, I think that really helped quite a bit, and identifying the things that must be present, like in the next job. So I think it was one of those pieces, going into it was like, I have all these skills that can do this, I could do that. And so it's like I said, it was just like, I think in my head what I was trying to do was try to figure out how do I actually position myself just to win the job and be wanted, again, to overcome that sense of rejection that I think I felt at the time. But I think that it was getting that clarity of the distinction of the rejection, and what do I actually want. Versus the "I just wanted to feel wanted." Of like, "No, that's not what it is." Yes, I do want that. But that's not the driving factor that's behind all this. And so I think as we started going further down that path with what must be present, it really helped me hone in with the right questions to be asking during the interview of the people. And I think even with eventually landing where I am now, I ended up interviewing with five different people before they actually made the offer to me. And I was just like, but every one of them, I would go through the same thing of the "Are you glad you're here? Do you like the people you're working with? What's not working?" And so it's like, it's one of those things for me that became really present with the emotional intelligence. So he didn't get into EQ. And the people I was interviewing with, I put great value on people with great EQ. And every one of these people that I interviewed with, on the question of the hedges "what's not going well", they all take responsibility for what they're not doing well. They didn't blame it on anybody else in their organizations. And they would stop, and they actually self reflect like, "Oh, that's a good question." It's like, well, "If I'm really being honest, I'm struggling in this area where I just don't think I'm mature enough yet. And so I'm working on this, and here's what I'm working on. So it's like, is that something that you would be able to help with?" And I was like, "I can absolutely help you with that." It's like, "Here's how I can help you." But it was just like, just having the presence of that, I think, really helped as far as like what we had done with the, "These are the type of people that I want to work with." I think also with just having enough self reflection, and as you were talking about your being fired, it's just like, if I'm being really honest with myself, I think I got to a point after going through so many of the riffs and seeing so many people that I cared about get laid off that I had just, you can say it's burnout, I think I'd become apathetic. And like, I probably would have let me go too, in hindsight. And so, I can have some resentments. Be easy to point the finger. But I think that, yeah, I probably should have gotten let go. But then, getting to the point of now, it's just like, I am working on an awesome company. And I'm working with just really, I mean, that was my one on one with my boss yesterday. He's like, "How's it going? I haven't talked to you like in a week and a half." It's like, but I haven't met anybody I don't like. Everybody I meet, I continue to be impressed with. Everybody actually knows how to do their job, their skill, they just like they know what they're doing. They're professional." It's just like, "This is awesome." He's like, "That's great. Good." With interest. And I think about, maybe second, third day into job, I went to local sales office up here and was talking to one of the district managers, and he's like, "You won that jackpot, man. You won the lottery. This is like nobody leaves his company. Everybody loves it here." It's just like, you got a CEO that really cares about the people. And we just continue to do well, because it's about the people, which going back to the Ideal Career Profile. For me, a lot of that was the value of, I started really reflecting. So it's like, the majority of my waking hours are going to be spent with these people. I've gotten like the people I work with.
Scott Anthony Barlow 23:52
You strike me as the type of person that couldn't just go to work and accept a paycheck, for lack of a better phrase. I don't think that would feel great for you. If I understand you correctly.
Brian 24:09:
No, for sure. Yeah, honestly, man, and I continue to meet with Ben and do touch base, because it's like, for me, I have within me this desire just to make it great. And it's not that things aren't great, but it's just like, we just do this and just, like, continue to make it better. And all sudden you're working 14-16 hour days, and so that's one of the things I've been here with. It's like, I know that's within me, I just don't want to get back to doing the crazy days. It's like, how do we build this in a way where we get the balance, and continue to make it better? I mean, even like doing my one on one with my boss, supervisor, manager, leader yesterday, he's just like, "Here's what I'm thinking. This is like, could you do this?" I'm like, "I could totally do that." So I was like, "I can do it then the next week." And he says, like, "You know, I'm gonna do that. And I'll come back to you with a timeline. And I'll let you know. And yeah, I can totally do all the things that you're asking me to do. I know exactly how to do that." And I was like, "And we'll do it." Instead of like, "Oh, I'll work all weekend. I'm gonna work late. And we'll have that done next week." It's not that. And I think that's some of the tying it back to the work with Ben, trying to get that balance right for the ideal career profile, of it doesn't have to be this chaos. Because for me, my innate desire is to just I gotta get it great. And it's got to get great now.
Scott Anthony Barlow 25:31:
I think what's really interesting about that, as I'm listening to you talk, as you were talking about the transitions you made earlier, and the different points in time in your career with different roles, different opportunities, just in how you're talking about it, I can hear a lot of the things that you value coming out of how you're describing what was great about those situations. And I think that that is what so many people miss when we're trying to figure out work that is a really wonderful fit. It's that you have to be able to identify and articulate, and then seek out those things that you want. And I think you've done a really phenomenal job here. So here's the question I want to ask for you. After the riff, after the initial transition, where you're in that point where you're like, "This doesn't happen to me." And you're in that sort of mindset. And then moving all the way to where you were going into interviews excited, and you've shifted from that desperation or that other mindset into excitement. How long do you think that took for you, overall, first, to shift that mindset? Was that like a day, a week, a month? Two years? I know it wasn't two years.
Brian 26:56:
It was, yeah, it wasn't binary where it was on or off yesterday, you know, it was like, a little bit. Yeah, I'd say it was probably over five, six weeks to get there.
Scott Anthony Barlow 27:11:
What do you think was the most effective? Because I think it's easy for you and I to sit here and talk about that it's in the past, and say, "Oh, yeah." Like, you're gonna need to flip the mindset in order to be able to not come off as desperate, and instead, come off as who you are, and who you want to be and have those types of conversations that you were doing a great job having, asking them about and interviewing them about what they love, what were their challenges, etc. But it's another thing to say like, here's what had to actually occur in order to make that transition over that five to six weeks or so. What do you think was most effective for you? Or what advice would you give to other people that worked?
Brian 27:54:
Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think for me, as I was starting with Ben early on, it was like, I gotta find a bridge role. I just got to make sure I've got some income while we're figuring all this other stuff. Because if this takes me a year, I can't wait a year. I gotta go fast, right? I gotta get money coming in right away. And so I think, to try to answer the question, I think, part of what shifted was the, what if I did get the job, and then I just was miserable, and I hated it. But now I don't have enough time to actually work on getting the job that I want, and moving in the direction that I want to go. And I think come into that realization of doing some of the other work in terms of, hey, fast forward six months out, you still don't have money coming in. What does that look? You know, and just like, you know, I'm still alive, my bills are paid, there's people that are much worse off than I am. It's just like, I'm fine. So it's like, I'm completely fine. You know, it gave me the confidence of the maybe I don't just need to get a bridge role and get money coming in right away. I'm not saying that there's not people in that situation. I know. And reading through articles, and so most people don't have a lot of money in savings. I think the average American has about $400 in their bank account. So I think for me, I was blessed enough that I did have savings. I had other assets that I could sell, just like I had friends I can lean on if I really had to. And so having that confidence of, yeah, I'd be okay. So let's just get focused on what I really want versus the hey, let's just do this bridge role and get something else in there. And I think working with Ben it helped get that clarity faster. I think I probably would have gotten there, but it probably would not have happened nearly as fast as it did.
Scott Anthony Barlow 29:48
If you go back to that right after you got the RIF notice, and you're in that mindset, what advice would you give to somebody else who finds themselves in that situation that does want to make an intentional career change for this next step?
Brian 30:06:
I think, having working with HTYC definitely made a huge difference. I think, for me, in addition to what worked well, and getting me through this was activating my network. And, really, just like reaching out to people. I talked to people that I hadn't talked to in years. And also, I think some of it is, we just get busy with our day to day lives and the people that are wrapped around us immediately, but now that it's like I'm staying in touch with some of those people that all said so, it's like, you just reach out to them. And it's amazing as you reach out to some of these people that you haven't talked to in years, how fast you can just, like, pick up like, no time and ever gotten by at all, you wouldn't think this like, "Oh, I haven't talked to you in five years." Also, it was like, "Oh, what happened with someone?" And it's like, and it just, like, all just picks right back up on what's where it left off. And so I think activating the network of people, whether it's via LinkedIn, but just starting to reach out to people, and one of the things that was a pleasant, I don't know if surprise is the right word, it was more of a comfort than a surprise, as kind of a connotation to it. For me, it was a pleasant comfort of how many people just want to help and be there to support, and it's like, yeah, man, it's just like, "what about, hey, I can call so and so" and just, it was amazing to me. It's just like, and I think that for a lot of folks, I think there would be a tendency to not reach out and, like, "I haven't talked to him for five years, I don't want to be a burden." And for me, it was, and there was some of this with me. But I think in my first session with Ben that we talked about, and maybe a second was it's going to be the network to activate the network. You know, it's like, I've been blessed in the industry I'm in. I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of people. And so my networks are pretty expansive. I know there's other people that don't have that situation, but it's kind of like that Kevin Bacon, six degrees of separation sort of thing, like activate and find out who they know, and just you got to continue to work it. And I know, the framework with HTYC, you guys have a lot of that sort of the underpinnings of that to help with it.
Scott Anthony Barlow 32:23:
Absolutely. I think that what you mentioned is really common– being the tendency to think, "Well, I don't want to bother this person. I don't want to be a burden." And what we find in this daily, honestly, makes me feel good about humanity. We continuously find what you said and what you found, which is that most people just want to help. Like at the core of it, like most people are very willing to help. I mean, you do need to take extra effort to make it easy on them. And you do need to, you know, approach it from a place of service or a place of where you recognize that you're making an ask, but beyond that, like everybody, if they can, I found people are incredibly willing to help. It's just we're often unwilling to ask.
Scott Anthony Barlow 33:16:
Hey, if you're ready to be clear on what you want and find what fits you, I would say just email me — pause this right now — scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Put “Conversation” in the subject line. I'll connect you with somebody on my team, the right person on my team, who can help you discover your ideal career profile. Again, it's scott@happentoyourcareer.com.