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First one is going to be so-called free

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software- free, as in you don't pay, but

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that they pay for with selling your data.

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The typical examples

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of this would be Gmail.

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You don't actually pay for Gmail with

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money outta your pocket, at least

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most people don't on the typical plan.

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And so how are they paying for those

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servers and those developers and the

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infrastructure and their whole company?

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Well, of course they are using

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your data for various purposes.

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They're able to train AI models.

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They're able to create targeted

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ads and build up huge databases

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on users that they're able to sell

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to advertisers for targeted ads.

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Welcome to the Sovereign Computing

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Show, presented by ATL BitLab.

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I'm Jordan Bravo, and this is a

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podcast where we teach you how to

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take back control of your devices.

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Sovereign Computing means you own your

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technology, not the other way around.

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This episode is sponsored by ATL BitLab.

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ATL BitLab is Atlanta's

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freedom tech hacker space.

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We have co working desks,

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conference rooms, event space,

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maker tools, and tons of coffee.

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There is a very active

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community here in the lab.

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Every Wednesday night is

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Bitcoin night here in Atlanta.

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We also have meetups for cyber security,

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artificial intelligence, decentralized

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identity, product design, and more.

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We offer day passes and nomad passes

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for people who need to use the lab only

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occasionally, as well as memberships

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for people who plan to use the lab

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more regularly, such as myself.

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One of the best things about

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having a BitLab membership isn't

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the amenities, it's the people.

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Surrounding yourself with a

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community helps you learn faster

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and helps you build better.

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Your creativity becomes  amplified

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when you work in this space,

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that's what I think at least.

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If you're interested in becoming

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a member or supporting this space,

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please visit us at atlbitlab.

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com.

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That's A T L B I T L A B dot com.

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Alright, on to our show.

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Welcome to the Sovereign Computing Show.

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I'm Jordan Bravo and I'm here today

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recording in the heart of Atlanta

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at a TL Bitlab with Steven De Alarm.

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What's up?

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today we've got a great show for you.

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We're going to talk about a

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couple of current events in

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privacy and digital sovereignty.

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I'm gonna update everybody on

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my latest in the ongoing saga

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of how to acquire private.

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SIM cards and data for mobile devices.

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And finally, we're gonna get into our main

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topic, which is software business models.

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First, we wanna remind you that you

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can support the show by boosting in on

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Fountain FM or other podcasting 2.0 apps.

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You can also email the show.

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Our email address is

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sovereign@atlbitlab.com.

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I do want to.

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I apologize for my voice today.

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I'm getting over a sickness, so a

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little stuffed up, but hopefully it

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doesn't come out too bad on the audio.

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I think before we dive into the news

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articles, I want to give an update on

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the i ongoing saga of private sim cards.

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So, uh, I've noticed that there's, the

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current situation is there's sort of

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alema where you can have two of the three.

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features but not all three at once.

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And that seems to be, you can

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have it private, fast, convenient.

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Pick two.

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my current setup is that I have private

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and I have fast with Mint Mobile.

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The, the inconvenient part is that

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I have to, you can only buy three

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months at a time of a mint card in

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person with cash, so that's private.

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It's fast.

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It is, I'm currently getting about 913

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megabits per second, which is awesome.

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That's like, it's almost a gigabit.

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I think my, my mobile speed the other

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day when I tested it was faster than my

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home wifi speed, which is impressive.

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but it is not convenient.

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I don't want to have to go in person every

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three months just to re-up my SIM card.

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So, I tried something else.

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I tried an at and t prepaid sim.

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And the cool thing about that is

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you can also buy it in person.

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You can buy it with cash.

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but they have other plans where you could

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buy, for example, 12 months at a time.

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Now, I didn't know if this was

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gonna work, so I bought a single

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month at a time and I tested it out.

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So we have, private because I didn't

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have to use any methods of paying for it.

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That docks my identity.

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We have convenient because if I can

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get 12 months at a time, this will be.

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Acceptable to me.

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but then what about the fast part?

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Well, that's where this fell down.

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I tested it out and it was

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three, three megabits per second.

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That's rough.

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Yeah, just so remember I just

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said that my Mint mobile was

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913, so that's 300 x difference.

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Now, maybe I don't live near an at t

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tower and I live right near T-Mobile

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Tower, which is what Mint uses.

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But something is way off there.

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So I haven't given up on

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the at and t card yet.

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I'm going to actually contact them

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and see if I can troubleshoot it.

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You know, maybe I'm missing something,

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maybe there's a setting I need to tweak.

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but I will report back and keep everyone

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updated as to the, the best options.

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Oh, I also confirmed that, US mobile

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like Mint Mobile, they are not accepting

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vanilla Visa cards on their website.

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So, The problem there is not being

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able to pay for it in an anonymous way.

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but, but that's it.

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That's the end of the,

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the sim updates for today.

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Steven, did you have any thoughts on that?

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No, not really.

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that's, uh, pretty astounding with

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the at and t, so, but I feel like that

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it's gotta be something weird going on.

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So, yeah, give him a call.

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Figure it out.

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Alright, we have a couple of

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interesting news items today.

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the first one is an article from the

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verge, although this source isn't

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too important, we will of course

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include these links in the show notes.

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and the, the headline is, Google has just

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two weeks to begin cracking open Android.

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It admits in emergency filing.

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And so, EPIC Games for those of you aren't

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aware, epic is a large video game company.

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They make a lot of popular games for

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various systems, but they earlier,

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I believe it was last year, sometime

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in the past 24 months or so, they

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sued both Apple and Google for their

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onerous place and app store policies.

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all apps that go through Apple, for

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example, the app store, they have

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to give 30% of any money that they

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make through that app to Apple.

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And um, they also prevent.

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they prevent the apps from having any

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kind of external billing or linking out.

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so Epic sued Apple and it also sued

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Google for these similar, problems where

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in addition to not letting people use

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external billing, they also don't allow

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any external app stores, especially Apple,

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I think is more locked down than that.

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Google itself, because

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Android is more open.

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You can use alternative app

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stores and side load applications.

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However, if you go into Google

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Place store itself, if you're going

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through like the Google Blessed path

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of getting apps, you cannot put any

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alternative app stores in there.

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And of course, Google,

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curates that list of apps.

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So there's a limited, You, you

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have to follow their various

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guidelines, which include a lot of

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what I would consider censorship.

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So anyway, getting back to this article,

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what happened was Epic won its lawsuit.

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And so in a court order, Google has been

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ordered to make several changes that

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are gonna open up Android and make it

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a little bit easier for apps to bill

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in their own way, not go through, the

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Google Play Store and pay the Google tax.

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if you scroll down, Steven, there is

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a bulleted list of some of the things

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that Google is going to have to do.

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so I'm gonna read them off here.

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There's, they're gonna stop

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Google from forcing app developers

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to use Google Play billing.

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They're going to let Android developers

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tell users about other ways to pay

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from within the the Play Store.

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They're gonna let Android developers

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link to ways to download their

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apps outside of the Play Store.

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They're gonna let developers

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set their own prices.

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They'll stop sharing money or perks

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with phone makers, carriers and app

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developers in exchange for Google

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Play exclusivity or pre-installation.

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So, um, basically these are

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kind of like shady deals that

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tighten Google's monopoly on it.

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And then the last one they give is they

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will have to work with Epic specifically

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to resolve any disputes as Google builds

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a system to let rival app stores in.

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So the implications of

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these are kind of cool.

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We will see what happens.

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I, my, my instinctive reaction

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is that Google is going to.

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Use every dirty trick in the

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book to follow the letter of

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the law, but not the spirit.

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Uh, we already saw Apple pulled

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something similar in the European

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Union where they were ordered to let,

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like side loading of apps and stuff.

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I think they, they sort of skirted

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that by having some kind of loophole.

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But Google, it says here in the,

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in the article that Google has

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a certain amount of time to, to.

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Enable, enact these changes.

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And it says it was 14 days in the, in the

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article, but you know how these things go.

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It, they could always apply or,

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uh, appeal and get a, uh, what do

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you call it, A continuation or a

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delay, an emergency stay, exactly.

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What's that word?

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I'm gonna keep an eye on this.

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This is promising, but

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we'll see what happens.

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Yeah.

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Surprised, the idea that a company

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could, you know, a company Google Size

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could do something in only 14 days.

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Yeah.

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That, that's pretty quick.

275
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,370
I would guess that the, that 14 day

276
00:10:02,490 --> 00:10:04,770
deadline is a very narrowly scoped

277
00:10:05,190 --> 00:10:06,540
action that they'll have to take.

278
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:08,580
Maybe just kind of showing

279
00:10:08,580 --> 00:10:09,330
that they're, they're getting

280
00:10:09,330 --> 00:10:10,620
started, something like that.

281
00:10:10,620 --> 00:10:11,130
I see.

282
00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:13,050
That's, that's just my

283
00:10:13,050 --> 00:10:13,920
guess on the matter.

284
00:10:13,950 --> 00:10:15,480
That's, that's how it usually rolls

285
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:16,920
with these giant corporations.

286
00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,800
I. Uh, any other thoughts on this one?

287
00:10:20,310 --> 00:10:20,760
Nope.

288
00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:21,840
But I do want to take this

289
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:23,550
opportunity to open my seltzer

290
00:10:23,550 --> 00:10:26,550
water, which can be cut out or can

291
00:10:26,550 --> 00:10:27,780
be left in if we think it's funny.

292
00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:29,880
All right.

293
00:10:30,570 --> 00:10:32,520
That'll make it easier for our editor.

294
00:10:33,750 --> 00:10:34,410
Alright, let's take a

295
00:10:34,410 --> 00:10:36,870
look at the next article.

296
00:10:37,410 --> 00:10:38,910
This one is really quick.

297
00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,370
There's not a whole lot of analysis on it.

298
00:10:41,970 --> 00:10:43,950
It is simply that the

299
00:10:43,950 --> 00:10:46,320
Linux desktop market share.

300
00:10:46,935 --> 00:10:49,995
Is gaining over, uh, 6% of

301
00:10:49,995 --> 00:10:51,645
the entire desktop market.

302
00:10:51,645 --> 00:10:54,795
So I remember, I've been following this

303
00:10:54,825 --> 00:10:58,425
number since about 2020, and I remember

304
00:10:58,425 --> 00:11:00,585
it was around two and a half percent.

305
00:11:01,095 --> 00:11:03,795
And now let, let's put

306
00:11:03,795 --> 00:11:04,815
things in perspective.

307
00:11:04,845 --> 00:11:07,905
The Linux server market

308
00:11:07,905 --> 00:11:11,445
share is 95 plus percent.

309
00:11:11,805 --> 00:11:12,975
Uh, almost every server

310
00:11:12,975 --> 00:11:14,595
out there is running Linux.

311
00:11:15,015 --> 00:11:16,485
however, when it comes to the desktop

312
00:11:16,485 --> 00:11:18,255
market, it's a totally different story.

313
00:11:18,645 --> 00:11:21,195
Linux as a desktop, and by desktop

314
00:11:21,195 --> 00:11:22,665
of course, I mean laptop, any,

315
00:11:22,665 --> 00:11:24,165
just running the Linux operating

316
00:11:24,165 --> 00:11:25,515
system on whatever machine.

317
00:11:26,805 --> 00:11:30,105
They, again, 2022 and a half percent,

318
00:11:30,495 --> 00:11:33,165
and it's been rising steadily,

319
00:11:33,195 --> 00:11:36,015
but also kind of in a up curve.

320
00:11:36,285 --> 00:11:37,275
So we we're seeing

321
00:11:37,275 --> 00:11:38,385
that, that accelerating.

322
00:11:38,655 --> 00:11:39,855
I think some of the things that

323
00:11:39,855 --> 00:11:42,040
have led to this in recent.

324
00:11:42,810 --> 00:11:44,430
Months and years have been

325
00:11:44,790 --> 00:11:47,610
the release of Steam Os.

326
00:11:47,820 --> 00:11:50,490
Of course Steam is a video game company

327
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,057
and they have, created their own

328
00:11:53,117 --> 00:11:54,977
gaming console called the Steam Deck.

329
00:11:55,277 --> 00:11:57,377
And the Steam Deck runs Steam Os.

330
00:11:57,377 --> 00:11:59,867
And Steam Os is just a brand of

331
00:11:59,867 --> 00:12:02,207
Linux that they sort of customize.

332
00:12:02,207 --> 00:12:04,007
It is, it is a built on the base of

333
00:12:04,007 --> 00:12:07,127
Arch Linux, but that alone, because

334
00:12:07,127 --> 00:12:08,567
the gaming market is huge, has.

335
00:12:09,587 --> 00:12:11,027
Given this total Linux

336
00:12:11,027 --> 00:12:12,527
desktop share a nice bump.

337
00:12:14,177 --> 00:12:16,577
I wonder if I could play Doom the dark

338
00:12:16,577 --> 00:12:20,567
Ages on steam MOS When did that come out?

339
00:12:20,747 --> 00:12:23,027
Like, I don't know, a month or so ago?

340
00:12:23,027 --> 00:12:25,457
I guess it's possible.

341
00:12:25,517 --> 00:12:25,757
Yeah.

342
00:12:26,574 --> 00:12:27,594
there's been a lot of work.

343
00:12:27,594 --> 00:12:31,104
I, I'm not a huge gamer nowadays, but I

344
00:12:31,104 --> 00:12:33,264
do follow a lot of the Linux gaming stuff

345
00:12:33,294 --> 00:12:37,164
and, uh, steam has done a lot of work.

346
00:12:37,989 --> 00:12:39,639
Their developers have spent a

347
00:12:39,639 --> 00:12:42,099
lot of time adapting games that

348
00:12:42,099 --> 00:12:44,439
are made for Windows, for Linux.

349
00:12:44,769 --> 00:12:45,732
They have something called, called

350
00:12:45,732 --> 00:12:48,102
Proton, which is unrelated to the,

351
00:12:48,192 --> 00:12:50,052
the privacy company, but they, it's

352
00:12:50,052 --> 00:12:51,912
a compatibility layer for Linux.

353
00:12:52,062 --> 00:12:52,122
Hmm.

354
00:12:52,152 --> 00:12:53,742
That basically, it, it's not an

355
00:12:53,742 --> 00:12:56,082
emulator because emulation always

356
00:12:56,082 --> 00:12:58,362
takes a, a massive performance hit.

357
00:12:58,872 --> 00:13:00,522
But, uh, this compatibility layer

358
00:13:00,522 --> 00:13:02,172
is, is some way of translating

359
00:13:02,172 --> 00:13:03,852
it without that huge performance

360
00:13:03,852 --> 00:13:06,132
hit so you can get near native.

361
00:13:07,002 --> 00:13:08,682
Performance on a lot of games.

362
00:13:08,982 --> 00:13:10,992
But yeah, I was kind of wondering if Steam

363
00:13:11,232 --> 00:13:12,492
os might have something to do with it.

364
00:13:12,492 --> 00:13:14,802
I remember hearing about the steam deck,

365
00:13:14,802 --> 00:13:17,022
like ideas for it like 10 years ago.

366
00:13:17,502 --> 00:13:19,002
Um, I just haven't been following it.

367
00:13:19,045 --> 00:13:20,499
so, but yeah, that seems like

368
00:13:20,499 --> 00:13:21,639
that would certainly add to

369
00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:23,649
the, the share of these things.

370
00:13:24,069 --> 00:13:26,079
Quick aside, the steam deck's really cool.

371
00:13:26,079 --> 00:13:27,159
I don't have one, but I've

372
00:13:27,429 --> 00:13:28,359
messed around with one.

373
00:13:28,359 --> 00:13:29,169
My friend has it.

374
00:13:29,409 --> 00:13:31,749
And when you boot it up by default

375
00:13:31,749 --> 00:13:33,609
it's in sort of console mode.

376
00:13:34,044 --> 00:13:36,414
And, you know, big graphical buttons as

377
00:13:36,414 --> 00:13:38,574
you would expect, but you can switch to

378
00:13:38,574 --> 00:13:40,254
regular desktop mode and it's exactly

379
00:13:40,254 --> 00:13:43,044
like running steam or it's exactly

380
00:13:43,044 --> 00:13:44,874
like running Linux on your handheld.

381
00:13:44,934 --> 00:13:45,054
Oh.

382
00:13:45,384 --> 00:13:47,514
Um, and, and you can even boot Steam

383
00:13:47,724 --> 00:13:49,824
os on a typical desktop or laptop

384
00:13:49,824 --> 00:13:51,534
computer because it's just Linux.

385
00:13:51,534 --> 00:13:51,594
Huh.

386
00:13:52,044 --> 00:13:52,584
That's pretty cool.

387
00:13:53,689 --> 00:13:53,979
Cool.

388
00:13:53,994 --> 00:13:54,144
Yeah.

389
00:13:54,144 --> 00:13:55,179
I wonder what, I wonder if there's

390
00:13:55,259 --> 00:13:56,259
anything else that could contribute

391
00:13:56,364 --> 00:13:59,124
to the rise other than the Steam os.

392
00:13:59,604 --> 00:14:00,984
I think there's been a little bit of.

393
00:14:01,869 --> 00:14:04,419
Increased awareness, uh, or demand for

394
00:14:04,419 --> 00:14:06,699
privacy respecting operating systems.

395
00:14:07,029 --> 00:14:09,789
You know, in the past few, uh, months

396
00:14:09,789 --> 00:14:12,339
and years I've seen, for example, um,

397
00:14:12,399 --> 00:14:16,029
PewDiePie, the famous YouTuber, who I

398
00:14:16,029 --> 00:14:17,679
am not a fan of, but it came up on my

399
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:19,959
radar because he suddenly made, started

400
00:14:19,959 --> 00:14:21,999
making videos about how he was fed up with

401
00:14:21,999 --> 00:14:23,859
windows and he was fed up with Androids.

402
00:14:23,859 --> 00:14:25,929
So he switched to Linux, he switched

403
00:14:25,929 --> 00:14:28,659
to Graphos, and you know, this guy has

404
00:14:28,749 --> 00:14:30,549
hundreds of millions of subscribers.

405
00:14:30,819 --> 00:14:32,289
and I've, I've seen more and more of

406
00:14:32,289 --> 00:14:35,572
these videos lately of, non-tech, uh,

407
00:14:35,572 --> 00:14:38,512
non uh, privacy obsessed people who

408
00:14:38,512 --> 00:14:40,462
are just, who have a big audience and

409
00:14:40,462 --> 00:14:43,965
they're switching to, Linux from Windows

410
00:14:43,965 --> 00:14:47,235
and Graphos, for example, from regular

411
00:14:47,325 --> 00:14:49,515
Android, just for the privacy, just

412
00:14:49,515 --> 00:14:51,735
for the sovereign computing mindset of

413
00:14:51,915 --> 00:14:54,765
I want this technology to do what I am

414
00:14:54,915 --> 00:14:56,445
expecting it to do and nothing else.

415
00:14:56,445 --> 00:14:56,805
And.

416
00:14:57,150 --> 00:14:58,440
Not be spying on me and

417
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:59,430
treating me like a baby.

418
00:14:59,610 --> 00:15:00,240
That's pretty cool.

419
00:15:00,450 --> 00:15:03,054
I remember like, 15 years ago there was

420
00:15:03,054 --> 00:15:05,664
like this trend of tiny little laptops

421
00:15:05,664 --> 00:15:07,674
that would run a buntu, and it was, I

422
00:15:07,674 --> 00:15:09,474
remember it was like the coolest thing

423
00:15:09,474 --> 00:15:12,844
ever because it would be this like, laptop

424
00:15:12,844 --> 00:15:14,764
that was like smaller form factor than

425
00:15:14,764 --> 00:15:16,384
you're used to, I guess like the same

426
00:15:16,384 --> 00:15:18,424
size that like Chromebooks and stuff are,

427
00:15:18,454 --> 00:15:20,434
but this was before the Chromebook and.

428
00:15:20,869 --> 00:15:22,549
They were like, I don't, I can't remember

429
00:15:22,549 --> 00:15:24,079
if it was Dell or another company, but

430
00:15:24,079 --> 00:15:26,239
they started shipping with Ubuntu and it

431
00:15:26,239 --> 00:15:28,429
just seemed like the coolest thing ever

432
00:15:28,429 --> 00:15:32,629
that was like, oh shit, like Lennox is

433
00:15:32,629 --> 00:15:35,149
on like a laptop you can buy at a store.

434
00:15:35,659 --> 00:15:37,519
And I just thought that like, it was

435
00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:39,679
kind of like Bitcoin and El Salvador is

436
00:15:39,679 --> 00:15:41,779
like, oh man, this is gonna take over.

437
00:15:41,779 --> 00:15:43,609
Everyone's gonna be using Linux

438
00:15:43,609 --> 00:15:45,469
in a few years because, and the

439
00:15:45,469 --> 00:15:47,119
laptops were super cheap and.

440
00:15:47,464 --> 00:15:48,694
The, the funny thing is though, I, I

441
00:15:48,694 --> 00:15:50,134
don't think they were well received in

442
00:15:50,134 --> 00:15:51,604
the marketplace, and I remember this

443
00:15:51,604 --> 00:15:54,124
like horrible news expose of like some

444
00:15:54,124 --> 00:15:57,004
journalist, like interviewing this lady

445
00:15:57,004 --> 00:15:59,554
who had bought one of these laptops, not

446
00:15:59,554 --> 00:16:02,434
realizing that it didn't have windows on

447
00:16:02,434 --> 00:16:05,464
it and how like they wouldn't give her a

448
00:16:05,464 --> 00:16:08,284
refund and she had no idea how to use it.

449
00:16:08,284 --> 00:16:09,634
And they were interviewing

450
00:16:09,634 --> 00:16:10,684
this guy from like.

451
00:16:11,224 --> 00:16:13,084
A local computer repair shop,

452
00:16:13,084 --> 00:16:15,604
some friendly nerd who kindly

453
00:16:15,604 --> 00:16:18,214
volunteered his time to like help

454
00:16:18,214 --> 00:16:20,194
her like side load windows into

455
00:16:20,194 --> 00:16:22,054
the machine or something like that.

456
00:16:22,354 --> 00:16:24,604
And it was like this horrible expose

457
00:16:24,964 --> 00:16:27,724
about like these tech companies

458
00:16:27,724 --> 00:16:29,854
trying to switch people to Lennox

459
00:16:29,854 --> 00:16:32,505
and you know, You know, the, the, the

460
00:16:32,505 --> 00:16:35,355
common person being taken advantage

461
00:16:35,355 --> 00:16:38,145
of by laptop manufacturers and Linux.

462
00:16:38,145 --> 00:16:39,285
And it was just a really

463
00:16:39,285 --> 00:16:40,365
interesting framing.

464
00:16:40,365 --> 00:16:41,745
It's so weird how these narratives

465
00:16:41,745 --> 00:16:43,605
take hold, but no, that was not

466
00:16:43,605 --> 00:16:45,285
the year of the Linux desktop the

467
00:16:45,285 --> 00:16:46,545
way that we thought it would be.

468
00:16:46,725 --> 00:16:48,645
Yeah, maybe this year.

469
00:16:48,650 --> 00:16:49,905
That's, that's the joke, right?

470
00:16:49,905 --> 00:16:52,665
Maybe this year, maybe next year.

471
00:16:53,505 --> 00:16:54,825
Uh, I did notice one thing at

472
00:16:54,825 --> 00:16:55,785
the bottom of this article.

473
00:16:55,785 --> 00:16:58,155
It says it's got some reasons, some

474
00:16:58,155 --> 00:17:00,380
possible reasons why, uh, Linux.

475
00:17:01,305 --> 00:17:02,505
Usage is rising.

476
00:17:02,895 --> 00:17:05,025
And this I had not considered, but

477
00:17:06,075 --> 00:17:07,995
it says that Linux has become the

478
00:17:07,995 --> 00:17:09,945
default operating system for AI and

479
00:17:09,945 --> 00:17:12,165
machine learning workloads due to the

480
00:17:12,165 --> 00:17:14,205
prevalence of leading AI open source

481
00:17:14,205 --> 00:17:16,605
frameworks such as TensorFlow Pie

482
00:17:16,605 --> 00:17:18,975
Torch, and hugging face transformers

483
00:17:19,185 --> 00:17:22,155
and open AI's, new open weight models.

484
00:17:22,605 --> 00:17:24,675
So I had not considered that 'cause

485
00:17:24,675 --> 00:17:27,495
I do not do AI or machine learning

486
00:17:27,495 --> 00:17:29,445
development, but that makes sense.

487
00:17:29,805 --> 00:17:30,175
Yeah, that's cool.

488
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:33,000
All right.

489
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:33,780
Anything else you wanted

490
00:17:33,780 --> 00:17:34,830
to add on this topic?

491
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:36,420
Oh, not really.

492
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:38,640
Alright, let's get into

493
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:40,020
our main topic for today.

494
00:17:40,350 --> 00:17:42,360
We're going to talk about software

495
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:46,654
business models, because our last episode

496
00:17:46,654 --> 00:17:51,334
we talked about how we choose software and

497
00:17:51,904 --> 00:17:54,154
one of the things we teased was we looked

498
00:17:54,154 --> 00:17:56,794
at what is their business model and.

499
00:17:57,349 --> 00:17:58,909
This is important because this

500
00:17:58,909 --> 00:18:00,559
can determine a lot about the

501
00:18:00,559 --> 00:18:01,849
software that you're using.

502
00:18:01,982 --> 00:18:04,022
for one, it can determine is this company

503
00:18:04,022 --> 00:18:07,052
gonna be around in a for the long term,

504
00:18:07,082 --> 00:18:09,242
or is it just gonna be a flash in the pan?

505
00:18:09,242 --> 00:18:10,652
And, you know, gone soon, you're

506
00:18:10,652 --> 00:18:12,092
gonna have to find a replacement.

507
00:18:12,692 --> 00:18:14,072
Uh, another reason you might

508
00:18:14,072 --> 00:18:15,842
want to think about the software

509
00:18:15,842 --> 00:18:18,602
business model is, is this, what

510
00:18:18,602 --> 00:18:20,012
is this company doing with my data?

511
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:21,800
and some of the other things that

512
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,230
we talked about last time, but I'll

513
00:18:24,260 --> 00:18:26,240
reiterate them, their considerations

514
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,550
such as, if I needed to leave and go

515
00:18:28,550 --> 00:18:30,170
to a different software, different

516
00:18:30,170 --> 00:18:32,960
company, can I easily export my data?

517
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,370
Is it in a portable format

518
00:18:34,370 --> 00:18:36,200
that's usable elsewhere?

519
00:18:36,650 --> 00:18:40,190
So all of these things are affected

520
00:18:40,190 --> 00:18:42,200
by the software business model.

521
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:43,640
They're, and, and what the mo

522
00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:44,960
the business model is for a given

523
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,430
company is gonna incentivize

524
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:48,560
how they develop their software.

525
00:18:48,860 --> 00:18:50,090
You know, where, what their areas

526
00:18:50,090 --> 00:18:53,390
of focus are on, how upfront they

527
00:18:53,390 --> 00:18:54,470
are and transparent they are with

528
00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:56,360
their users, that kind of thing.

529
00:18:56,750 --> 00:18:59,210
And particularly open source

530
00:18:59,330 --> 00:19:00,950
business models are of interest

531
00:19:00,950 --> 00:19:05,270
here because open source and free

532
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:07,855
as in, uh, doesn't cost any money.

533
00:19:08,060 --> 00:19:09,950
And open source as in free as in

534
00:19:09,950 --> 00:19:11,810
freedom, are two different things.

535
00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:14,750
And I firmly believe in

536
00:19:14,750 --> 00:19:15,860
paying for good software.

537
00:19:16,505 --> 00:19:18,935
Because I want a company that is

538
00:19:18,935 --> 00:19:20,945
providing value to me to continue

539
00:19:20,945 --> 00:19:23,405
providing value and to do a good job

540
00:19:23,405 --> 00:19:25,325
and stick around and be successful

541
00:19:25,715 --> 00:19:29,345
because, um, I, I want companies that

542
00:19:29,345 --> 00:19:31,115
have a good, uh, ethical business

543
00:19:31,115 --> 00:19:33,695
model to flourish and be rewarded.

544
00:19:33,695 --> 00:19:37,115
And so if I am using a, a piece of

545
00:19:37,115 --> 00:19:38,525
software and I find it valuable,

546
00:19:38,525 --> 00:19:40,745
then I would prefer to pay for it.

547
00:19:40,745 --> 00:19:42,935
So, uh, but the freedom I'm

548
00:19:42,935 --> 00:19:44,645
looking for in software is the.

549
00:19:44,830 --> 00:19:46,660
open source in general.

550
00:19:46,690 --> 00:19:48,340
Now, we, we mentioned last time,

551
00:19:48,970 --> 00:19:50,140
there's a caveat there, right?

552
00:19:50,140 --> 00:19:52,930
Open source does not equal good software.

553
00:19:52,930 --> 00:19:54,190
Just because something's open source

554
00:19:54,190 --> 00:19:56,230
doesn't mean it's great or even good.

555
00:19:56,420 --> 00:19:58,520
but that is, that is one thing

556
00:19:58,520 --> 00:19:59,840
to one aspect to look at.

557
00:20:00,260 --> 00:20:03,380
And so for me, there's a

558
00:20:03,380 --> 00:20:05,060
couple of business models,

559
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:06,500
particularly in open source, that

560
00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:08,150
I consider to be very ethical.

561
00:20:08,150 --> 00:20:10,160
And if I see a company doing

562
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:11,420
this or, or this is their

563
00:20:11,420 --> 00:20:13,010
business model, I'm gonna be.

564
00:20:13,415 --> 00:20:14,855
Uh, I'm gonna have more confidence that

565
00:20:14,855 --> 00:20:17,075
this company has my best interest in mind.

566
00:20:17,435 --> 00:20:20,345
So first, let's talk about a couple of

567
00:20:20,675 --> 00:20:24,725
business models that are not attractive

568
00:20:25,205 --> 00:20:28,625
to, um, in my opinion, the best,

569
00:20:29,615 --> 00:20:31,715
the best, uh, interests of the user.

570
00:20:32,045 --> 00:20:33,545
The first one is going to be

571
00:20:33,875 --> 00:20:35,945
so-called free software free, as

572
00:20:35,945 --> 00:20:37,775
in you don't pay, but that they

573
00:20:37,775 --> 00:20:40,055
pay for with selling your data.

574
00:20:40,115 --> 00:20:41,705
The typical examples

575
00:20:41,705 --> 00:20:43,205
of this would be Gmail.

576
00:20:43,415 --> 00:20:43,685
Uh,

577
00:20:43,685 --> 00:20:45,305
you don't actually pay for Gmail with

578
00:20:45,305 --> 00:20:47,345
money outta your pocket, at least

579
00:20:47,345 --> 00:20:49,445
most people don't on the typical plan.

580
00:20:49,895 --> 00:20:51,545
And so how are they paying for those

581
00:20:51,545 --> 00:20:53,405
servers and those developers and the

582
00:20:53,405 --> 00:20:54,755
infrastructure and their whole company?

583
00:20:55,055 --> 00:20:56,645
Well, of course they are using

584
00:20:56,645 --> 00:20:58,535
your data for various purposes.

585
00:20:58,745 --> 00:21:01,805
They're able to train AI models.

586
00:21:01,865 --> 00:21:02,420
they're able to.

587
00:21:03,995 --> 00:21:07,115
Create targeted ads and build up huge

588
00:21:07,115 --> 00:21:09,395
databases on users that they're able to

589
00:21:09,395 --> 00:21:11,705
sell to advertisers for targeted ads.

590
00:21:12,072 --> 00:21:13,332
I'll stop here for a second.

591
00:21:13,332 --> 00:21:15,342
Steven, do you have anything you wanted

592
00:21:15,342 --> 00:21:16,962
to add on that or maybe other business

593
00:21:16,962 --> 00:21:18,552
models that spring to mind in terms

594
00:21:18,552 --> 00:21:21,402
of ones that you wanna shy away from?

595
00:21:22,075 --> 00:21:24,415
I think that would be the primary one.

596
00:21:24,535 --> 00:21:25,075
Yeah.

597
00:21:25,409 --> 00:21:27,839
and I'll go ahead and point out that

598
00:21:27,839 --> 00:21:29,795
it's like, this is something I struggle

599
00:21:29,795 --> 00:21:31,535
with in my mind as I think about

600
00:21:31,535 --> 00:21:34,985
how to make products and stuff like

601
00:21:35,075 --> 00:21:37,985
scalable and, you know, accessible

602
00:21:37,985 --> 00:21:41,915
to more users because like, you know,

603
00:21:41,915 --> 00:21:45,035
you could, you could argue that like,

604
00:21:45,275 --> 00:21:47,495
you know, the, these kinds of business

605
00:21:47,495 --> 00:21:50,555
practices made technology more available

606
00:21:50,555 --> 00:21:52,685
to a lot of people, like a lot of.

607
00:21:53,285 --> 00:21:55,865
You know, like the growth of email and

608
00:21:55,865 --> 00:21:58,535
instant messaging and all this, it's

609
00:21:58,535 --> 00:22:00,515
like the kind of infrastructure that

610
00:22:00,515 --> 00:22:02,525
goes behind making those services really

611
00:22:02,525 --> 00:22:05,645
reliable and instantly responsive.

612
00:22:05,645 --> 00:22:08,032
And all of that is, you know, and, and,

613
00:22:08,032 --> 00:22:09,712
and that you can get all this for free.

614
00:22:09,712 --> 00:22:11,452
Anybody on the planet can get this

615
00:22:11,452 --> 00:22:15,352
for free really is because of that

616
00:22:15,352 --> 00:22:17,062
data intensive business model.

617
00:22:17,062 --> 00:22:18,802
And that's kind of the, the dark side

618
00:22:18,802 --> 00:22:21,502
of that that I tend to grapple with.

619
00:22:21,769 --> 00:22:23,299
and you know, I've, I've heard people make

620
00:22:23,299 --> 00:22:24,979
the argument that like, well, you know, if

621
00:22:24,979 --> 00:22:27,229
you use these data collecting services in

622
00:22:27,229 --> 00:22:29,149
the right way, then, you know, you can use

623
00:22:29,149 --> 00:22:31,339
it in a way to where, you know, they can't

624
00:22:31,339 --> 00:22:33,409
really identify you personally and you're

625
00:22:33,409 --> 00:22:35,429
just kind of like, tears in the reign.

626
00:22:36,099 --> 00:22:37,449
so it doesn't really matter.

627
00:22:37,549 --> 00:22:40,832
but, you know, yeah, it's, that's one

628
00:22:40,832 --> 00:22:42,542
like kind of counter argument to that.

629
00:22:42,542 --> 00:22:43,832
But yes, I don't like it.

630
00:22:43,862 --> 00:22:45,062
It makes me uncomfortable.

631
00:22:45,572 --> 00:22:47,762
I'm a much more fan of a direct

632
00:22:47,762 --> 00:22:49,825
business model, like proton or

633
00:22:49,825 --> 00:22:51,985
something where I know that I'm paying

634
00:22:51,985 --> 00:22:54,265
for the product directly rather than

635
00:22:54,265 --> 00:22:56,305
paying for it through hidden means.

636
00:22:58,645 --> 00:22:58,885
Yeah.

637
00:22:58,885 --> 00:23:02,095
So I, I have an example of what I would

638
00:23:02,095 --> 00:23:05,905
consider ethical business model, and

639
00:23:05,905 --> 00:23:07,825
that is for a company called Tail Scale.

640
00:23:08,185 --> 00:23:10,225
Tail Scale is a. Company

641
00:23:10,225 --> 00:23:11,005
that makes a mesh.

642
00:23:11,005 --> 00:23:11,665
VPN.

643
00:23:11,695 --> 00:23:14,185
This is a product that is different from

644
00:23:14,185 --> 00:23:17,695
the typical like proton, VPN Moad or IVPN.

645
00:23:18,025 --> 00:23:20,575
It's not, a competitor to this because

646
00:23:20,695 --> 00:23:22,195
it's used for different purposes.

647
00:23:22,465 --> 00:23:24,685
It's a mesh VPN that puts all of

648
00:23:24,685 --> 00:23:26,935
your devices on a single network.

649
00:23:27,085 --> 00:23:30,025
So if you are a self hoster or

650
00:23:30,025 --> 00:23:31,885
um, running servers or any kind of

651
00:23:31,885 --> 00:23:34,255
stuff like that, it's really useful.

652
00:23:34,432 --> 00:23:35,662
but anyway, what, what they,

653
00:23:35,722 --> 00:23:36,922
what the product is, is not.

654
00:23:37,672 --> 00:23:38,962
Actually the most important part

655
00:23:38,962 --> 00:23:40,222
of this topic, but I want to talk

656
00:23:40,222 --> 00:23:41,422
about is their business model.

657
00:23:41,422 --> 00:23:43,972
And that is it is free

658
00:23:43,972 --> 00:23:46,342
for up to 100 devices.

659
00:23:46,552 --> 00:23:48,872
No limitations, no throttling, but if you

660
00:23:48,872 --> 00:23:51,092
want to go beyond that a hundred devices,

661
00:23:51,092 --> 00:23:53,312
then you need to have a paid account.

662
00:23:53,672 --> 00:23:55,982
And a hundred devices is a lot.

663
00:23:56,357 --> 00:23:58,397
You know, how many people, just casual

664
00:23:58,397 --> 00:24:00,107
users, have more than a hundred devices?

665
00:24:00,167 --> 00:24:00,737
Very few.

666
00:24:00,737 --> 00:24:03,527
So what their business model is actually

667
00:24:03,527 --> 00:24:05,957
targeted for is enterprise users.

668
00:24:06,287 --> 00:24:08,807
And so, they, they wrote a great blog

669
00:24:08,807 --> 00:24:10,967
article on this, but their idea is

670
00:24:10,967 --> 00:24:14,567
that they subsidize this free plan

671
00:24:14,597 --> 00:24:16,307
with their enterprise plans and they

672
00:24:16,307 --> 00:24:18,077
find that it, that it's worth it

673
00:24:18,077 --> 00:24:21,377
because all of their users try it out.

674
00:24:21,377 --> 00:24:22,997
They tend, tend to be technical

675
00:24:22,997 --> 00:24:24,507
people working at companies as.

676
00:24:25,217 --> 00:24:27,317
Software developers, cis admins,

677
00:24:27,317 --> 00:24:29,507
DevOps people, they, they use

678
00:24:29,507 --> 00:24:31,397
the software on their own home

679
00:24:31,397 --> 00:24:33,407
labs or on their own systems.

680
00:24:33,587 --> 00:24:34,487
They fall in love with it.

681
00:24:34,487 --> 00:24:35,807
They see how great it is,

682
00:24:35,957 --> 00:24:37,427
there's no strings attached.

683
00:24:37,607 --> 00:24:39,467
And then they go to work, they go to

684
00:24:39,467 --> 00:24:40,607
their companies that they work at and

685
00:24:40,607 --> 00:24:42,587
they say, Hey, we should use tail scale.

686
00:24:42,917 --> 00:24:45,977
And so by simply landing a small

687
00:24:45,977 --> 00:24:48,737
fraction of those free users, businesses,

688
00:24:49,277 --> 00:24:51,857
they're able to be fairly profitable.

689
00:24:51,857 --> 00:24:52,547
From what I can tell.

690
00:24:52,547 --> 00:24:53,927
They're doing quite well, so.

691
00:24:54,332 --> 00:24:55,982
I feel like this is, oh, and on

692
00:24:55,982 --> 00:24:57,842
top of that, their, their entire

693
00:24:57,842 --> 00:25:00,152
stack is open sourced and they are

694
00:25:00,152 --> 00:25:02,162
even, uh, friendly to self-hosting.

695
00:25:02,162 --> 00:25:03,992
So if you wanna self-host, instead

696
00:25:03,992 --> 00:25:05,762
of using their managed coordinator

697
00:25:05,762 --> 00:25:08,102
server, they've even contributed,

698
00:25:08,312 --> 00:25:09,422
they've had their developers

699
00:25:09,422 --> 00:25:10,892
contribute to that open source code

700
00:25:10,892 --> 00:25:12,092
base, which I think is really cool.

701
00:25:12,902 --> 00:25:13,112
Yeah.

702
00:25:13,112 --> 00:25:14,312
So if we call the first one,

703
00:25:14,312 --> 00:25:16,502
maybe, uh, data subsidized,

704
00:25:16,772 --> 00:25:18,812
subsidized by the user's data.

705
00:25:19,142 --> 00:25:20,509
And then, the next one

706
00:25:20,509 --> 00:25:21,679
we call that freemium.

707
00:25:22,024 --> 00:25:23,464
I think free is great too.

708
00:25:23,524 --> 00:25:25,534
Like if you can just, you know,

709
00:25:25,534 --> 00:25:27,874
provide something, a piece of software

710
00:25:27,874 --> 00:25:30,064
for free in a more limited context

711
00:25:30,064 --> 00:25:31,984
and just to figure out what kind of

712
00:25:31,984 --> 00:25:34,654
level of usage you actually think

713
00:25:34,654 --> 00:25:36,844
your, your market is at, uh, where

714
00:25:36,844 --> 00:25:38,314
your, your best customers are at.

715
00:25:38,540 --> 00:25:39,410
so that's always great.

716
00:25:39,620 --> 00:25:41,450
There is sometimes a hazard in,

717
00:25:41,450 --> 00:25:43,220
in the market, I think of when

718
00:25:43,220 --> 00:25:44,720
a company does both of those.

719
00:25:45,035 --> 00:25:47,585
They do data subsidized premium, which

720
00:25:47,585 --> 00:25:49,709
was like, you know, you can use it for

721
00:25:49,709 --> 00:25:52,049
free up until a certain point and we

722
00:25:52,049 --> 00:25:54,509
will harvest your data and, you know,

723
00:25:54,539 --> 00:25:57,239
maybe try to track you and sell your data

724
00:25:57,239 --> 00:26:00,359
and all this kind of stuff and, but you

725
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,089
can pay us for premium level service.

726
00:26:03,209 --> 00:26:04,649
And then sometimes you get to the point

727
00:26:04,649 --> 00:26:06,899
where if it's, you know, for, if you're a

728
00:26:06,899 --> 00:26:09,179
business signing up and it's a business.

729
00:26:09,399 --> 00:26:10,262
level agreement.

730
00:26:10,262 --> 00:26:11,702
There may be some clause in the

731
00:26:11,702 --> 00:26:13,292
contract where they're not selling

732
00:26:13,292 --> 00:26:14,672
your data 'cause it might be like

733
00:26:14,852 --> 00:26:16,832
proprietary business information.

734
00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:18,789
but you know, and also if you're

735
00:26:18,789 --> 00:26:20,109
just a regular user, you might

736
00:26:20,109 --> 00:26:21,999
be on a, a freemium pan where you

737
00:26:21,999 --> 00:26:23,499
pay for the premium version and

738
00:26:23,499 --> 00:26:24,819
they're still selling your data.

739
00:26:24,999 --> 00:26:27,669
So it, it's a complicated thing.

740
00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:30,219
So I think data subsidized, yeah, bad,

741
00:26:30,369 --> 00:26:33,519
freemium good, but when it's like truly

742
00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:35,919
pure freemium, like tail scale where.

743
00:26:36,249 --> 00:26:38,019
It really is just a situation where

744
00:26:38,019 --> 00:26:40,539
they found that, you know, people

745
00:26:40,539 --> 00:26:42,789
who use it for free on the free and

746
00:26:42,789 --> 00:26:45,249
end up converting into enterprise

747
00:26:45,249 --> 00:26:46,869
customers later on down the line.

748
00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:48,129
Yeah.

749
00:26:48,129 --> 00:26:50,289
And I would say if your business

750
00:26:50,289 --> 00:26:51,939
model, if your freemium business

751
00:26:51,939 --> 00:26:53,769
model cannot be supported without

752
00:26:53,889 --> 00:26:56,215
data collection, then it is not a

753
00:26:56,215 --> 00:26:57,655
good business model for your product.

754
00:26:58,135 --> 00:26:58,375
Yeah.

755
00:26:59,652 --> 00:27:03,102
another example of a company that uses a.

756
00:27:04,062 --> 00:27:06,402
Well, actually, let me pivot for a second.

757
00:27:07,272 --> 00:27:09,372
Let's talk about a slightly

758
00:27:09,372 --> 00:27:10,602
different business model, which

759
00:27:10,632 --> 00:27:12,192
is, I would call, maybe you have a

760
00:27:12,192 --> 00:27:13,122
better word for this, but I would

761
00:27:13,122 --> 00:27:16,902
call it managed hosting, let's say.

762
00:27:17,022 --> 00:27:17,112
Mm-hmm.

763
00:27:17,352 --> 00:27:19,875
So for example, element, who

764
00:27:19,875 --> 00:27:21,585
is the reference implementation

765
00:27:21,585 --> 00:27:23,565
for Matrix or Next Cloud?

766
00:27:23,925 --> 00:27:25,755
These are pieces of open source

767
00:27:25,755 --> 00:27:27,645
software completely free to use.

768
00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:29,559
you can self-host them on your own.

769
00:27:29,559 --> 00:27:31,419
You can use them on your own, but.

770
00:27:32,049 --> 00:27:34,389
A lot of people don't want to, don't have

771
00:27:34,389 --> 00:27:37,659
the time or skill to self-host it on their

772
00:27:37,659 --> 00:27:39,669
own, to set up their own infrastructure to

773
00:27:39,819 --> 00:27:41,799
support all of the users that they have.

774
00:27:42,009 --> 00:27:44,319
So you can pay for managed hosting, and

775
00:27:44,319 --> 00:27:46,929
so a company will write the software

776
00:27:47,019 --> 00:27:48,219
and even though they make it completely

777
00:27:48,219 --> 00:27:50,589
available, if to anybody as open source

778
00:27:50,679 --> 00:27:53,589
and and freely licensed, they provide

779
00:27:53,589 --> 00:27:55,269
a hosting service where they themselves

780
00:27:55,269 --> 00:27:57,789
will provide managed hosting so that the.

781
00:27:58,104 --> 00:27:59,904
Paying customer doesn't have to do any

782
00:27:59,904 --> 00:28:01,944
of that work to set up the infrastructure

783
00:28:01,944 --> 00:28:04,014
and can continue to run it, update

784
00:28:04,014 --> 00:28:06,174
it, patch it, all of that stuff.

785
00:28:06,444 --> 00:28:09,234
And typically the, you'll see pricing

786
00:28:09,234 --> 00:28:11,904
for these will be on a per user, per

787
00:28:11,904 --> 00:28:14,694
month basis, or maybe per user per year.

788
00:28:14,844 --> 00:28:16,480
and I, I find that this is a very

789
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:17,920
ethical business model as well

790
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:19,690
because they're, they're doing a lot

791
00:28:19,690 --> 00:28:22,420
of the development work for quote,

792
00:28:22,420 --> 00:28:24,490
unquote free, but then they are

793
00:28:24,490 --> 00:28:26,800
paying for these ongoing costs of.

794
00:28:27,004 --> 00:28:28,264
keeping the software updated,

795
00:28:28,264 --> 00:28:29,824
developing new features, and paying

796
00:28:29,824 --> 00:28:32,194
for their infrastructure by, um,

797
00:28:32,464 --> 00:28:34,324
direct payments by the users.

798
00:28:34,324 --> 00:28:37,264
And as you add more users, you

799
00:28:37,264 --> 00:28:39,514
are justifiably paying more money

800
00:28:39,514 --> 00:28:41,750
because it takes more resources and,

801
00:28:41,757 --> 00:28:44,817
they're able to sort of subsidize

802
00:28:44,847 --> 00:28:47,427
the development with these payments.

803
00:28:48,807 --> 00:28:50,367
Yeah, I mean, I think the managed

804
00:28:50,367 --> 00:28:52,917
service is always a great business model.

805
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:54,980
Yeah, it gives you the freedom to not

806
00:28:54,980 --> 00:28:56,780
do it, not use their service if you

807
00:28:56,780 --> 00:28:59,090
don't want to, but it's still open

808
00:28:59,090 --> 00:29:01,010
source and you have a easy button.

809
00:29:01,010 --> 00:29:02,720
So yeah, I'm a fan of that model.

810
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:07,910
What is your opinion on paying a one-time

811
00:29:07,910 --> 00:29:10,730
fee versus an ongoing subscription?

812
00:29:10,730 --> 00:29:13,790
For example, would you rather pay a

813
00:29:13,790 --> 00:29:16,700
large sum upfront for a piece of software

814
00:29:16,910 --> 00:29:19,040
and never have to pay again, or would

815
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,070
you prefer a smaller ongoing fee?

816
00:29:22,550 --> 00:29:24,110
Hmm, that's a good question.

817
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:26,660
I don't know.

818
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,790
I remember back in the day, I think

819
00:29:28,790 --> 00:29:31,430
back to being in college and, you know,

820
00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:34,264
like, you know, needing a bunch of

821
00:29:34,324 --> 00:29:38,044
Adobe tools for graphic design school

822
00:29:38,044 --> 00:29:39,574
and like looking at the price of that

823
00:29:39,574 --> 00:29:44,644
software and it was like $2,000 for like

824
00:29:44,704 --> 00:29:46,894
a suite of just a couple applications.

825
00:29:46,924 --> 00:29:48,904
It was very, very expensive.

826
00:29:49,162 --> 00:29:52,462
And later on Adobe switched to the

827
00:29:52,462 --> 00:29:55,642
Creative Cloud model, which is pretty,

828
00:29:55,642 --> 00:29:57,352
I think it's still $50 a month.

829
00:29:57,352 --> 00:29:59,182
It might have increased since then, but

830
00:29:59,392 --> 00:30:01,522
they've kept it at a very flat rate.

831
00:30:01,822 --> 00:30:04,732
And it's like, there's

832
00:30:04,732 --> 00:30:05,962
pros and cons to it.

833
00:30:05,962 --> 00:30:07,882
It's like it, if you were somebody

834
00:30:07,882 --> 00:30:10,342
who's like in college or just starting

835
00:30:10,342 --> 00:30:14,032
off, just paying 50 bucks a month is

836
00:30:14,062 --> 00:30:16,672
much more accessible product for you.

837
00:30:16,997 --> 00:30:18,157
that you can actually use.

838
00:30:18,157 --> 00:30:19,897
So I think the subscription models can

839
00:30:19,897 --> 00:30:22,477
actually make software and services

840
00:30:22,477 --> 00:30:24,157
much more accessible to people.

841
00:30:24,907 --> 00:30:27,097
But when you think about it, it's

842
00:30:27,097 --> 00:30:29,947
like, like the older software there,

843
00:30:30,007 --> 00:30:32,077
there was this mindset shift in the

844
00:30:32,077 --> 00:30:34,657
design industry because, you know,

845
00:30:34,717 --> 00:30:36,697
like an agency would be used to buying

846
00:30:36,697 --> 00:30:39,487
a license for $2,000 and it would be

847
00:30:39,487 --> 00:30:41,292
like, well, we can use this forever.

848
00:30:42,592 --> 00:30:43,942
And there was this kind of sense

849
00:30:43,942 --> 00:30:46,312
that like the longer we rock this

850
00:30:46,312 --> 00:30:48,742
version of Adobe Creative Suite,

851
00:30:49,372 --> 00:30:51,892
the more bang we're getting for our

852
00:30:51,892 --> 00:30:53,692
buck, the more value we're getting.

853
00:30:54,015 --> 00:30:56,055
so and, and it really is true.

854
00:30:56,055 --> 00:30:57,285
I mean like if you're just like, say a

855
00:30:57,285 --> 00:31:00,705
solo designer and you make that $2,000

856
00:31:00,705 --> 00:31:02,625
investment or maybe three or 4K, if

857
00:31:02,625 --> 00:31:04,125
you're doing all the video stuff too,

858
00:31:04,125 --> 00:31:07,065
then it actually does pay off over time.

859
00:31:07,095 --> 00:31:09,345
If you're just like working in isolation.

860
00:31:09,705 --> 00:31:11,985
And I think you do lose that a little bit

861
00:31:11,985 --> 00:31:14,625
with subscription based software services.

862
00:31:14,625 --> 00:31:16,815
You lose that ability to just

863
00:31:16,815 --> 00:31:18,645
make an investment and it

864
00:31:18,645 --> 00:31:20,115
pays off over the long term.

865
00:31:20,385 --> 00:31:22,155
Now, one thing I found working at an

866
00:31:22,155 --> 00:31:25,035
agency that, and this was a mindset

867
00:31:25,035 --> 00:31:26,415
shift, but I think it did actually

868
00:31:26,415 --> 00:31:28,545
make sense, is when you're in a team

869
00:31:28,545 --> 00:31:31,425
environment and you're like, one person

870
00:31:31,425 --> 00:31:33,645
is on Adobe CS three, and then another

871
00:31:33,645 --> 00:31:36,015
person's on Adobe CS four and the other

872
00:31:36,015 --> 00:31:37,810
person's on Adobe CS five, it's like.

873
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,040
Well, do we really all want to be on

874
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,410
different versions of the software

875
00:31:43,410 --> 00:31:45,780
just so we can maximize the value from

876
00:31:45,780 --> 00:31:49,110
our, like, you know, you know this like

877
00:31:49,110 --> 00:31:51,390
two or three K investment and then it

878
00:31:51,390 --> 00:31:53,340
starts to be like lost productivity.

879
00:31:53,370 --> 00:31:54,450
'cause everyone's on different

880
00:31:54,450 --> 00:31:55,950
versions of the software.

881
00:31:56,130 --> 00:31:58,530
And so in some regards, the subscription

882
00:31:58,530 --> 00:32:00,765
model can actually be very user friendly.

883
00:32:01,470 --> 00:32:03,390
If you're in an environment where it's

884
00:32:03,390 --> 00:32:06,390
like critical that everyone be on the most

885
00:32:06,420 --> 00:32:08,620
current version of the software, because

886
00:32:08,620 --> 00:32:10,150
that's the thing is if you have a pay

887
00:32:10,150 --> 00:32:13,600
one subscription model, the, the company,

888
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,210
it's very, it's very difficult for the

889
00:32:16,210 --> 00:32:18,130
cash flow of the business making the

890
00:32:18,130 --> 00:32:21,005
software if it's a pay once model because.

891
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,040
You might make the piece of software

892
00:32:24,100 --> 00:32:27,010
and then that, that person is just like

893
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,560
a, a solo user might be just using that

894
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,240
piece of software for like a decade.

895
00:32:31,735 --> 00:32:33,955
And you might, you know, like, well,

896
00:32:33,955 --> 00:32:35,425
you need to make security updates.

897
00:32:35,425 --> 00:32:36,865
You need to make bug fixes.

898
00:32:36,865 --> 00:32:38,455
You might want to add new features.

899
00:32:38,455 --> 00:32:40,255
And it's more difficult to be able to

900
00:32:40,255 --> 00:32:43,195
subsidize that kind of development when

901
00:32:43,195 --> 00:32:45,295
you're not getting consistent cash flow.

902
00:32:45,535 --> 00:32:46,915
And that's the thing with like software

903
00:32:46,915 --> 00:32:48,265
companies, when you have a pay once

904
00:32:48,265 --> 00:32:50,695
model, you just have these bursts of

905
00:32:50,695 --> 00:32:53,395
cash flow when the product hits the

906
00:32:53,395 --> 00:32:57,325
market, and then it all kind of trickles.

907
00:32:58,180 --> 00:33:00,280
Down after that point.

908
00:33:00,550 --> 00:33:03,670
So I can really see both sides of it.

909
00:33:03,670 --> 00:33:05,620
And I think it actually, you could argue

910
00:33:05,620 --> 00:33:07,870
that it hurts the users too, where it's

911
00:33:07,870 --> 00:33:09,970
like, like I said, you have that situation

912
00:33:09,970 --> 00:33:11,350
where you have a company, everyone's on

913
00:33:11,350 --> 00:33:13,720
different versions of the software and

914
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,030
you know, they may not be getting the

915
00:33:16,030 --> 00:33:18,190
most current features and the most current

916
00:33:18,190 --> 00:33:21,730
bug fixes, and so it's complicated.

917
00:33:21,790 --> 00:33:22,540
Having said that, there's

918
00:33:22,540 --> 00:33:24,160
also a dark side to the.

919
00:33:25,060 --> 00:33:26,710
You know, subscription based model as

920
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:30,910
well, where, because the subscription

921
00:33:30,910 --> 00:33:33,730
model has been so normalized, I think

922
00:33:33,730 --> 00:33:35,800
it really has created an economy of

923
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,770
just shitty software as a service

924
00:33:38,770 --> 00:33:41,800
companies like I, I, I'm not, I don't

925
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,995
want to be some eternal shell for Adobe

926
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:45,640
'cause they definitely have failed

927
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,620
to innovate in many, many key areas.

928
00:33:47,965 --> 00:33:50,005
But just using them as an example.

929
00:33:50,095 --> 00:33:52,405
I think overall Creative Cloud has been

930
00:33:52,405 --> 00:33:54,955
like a large success just in terms of you

931
00:33:54,955 --> 00:33:57,445
have a team, you keep them all on the same

932
00:33:57,445 --> 00:34:00,895
feature set, you get bug fixes and you

933
00:34:00,895 --> 00:34:03,295
subsidize Adobe to keep putting out bug

934
00:34:03,295 --> 00:34:05,275
fixes and product, you know, updates and

935
00:34:05,275 --> 00:34:06,745
all that, everyone in your team can yet.

936
00:34:06,745 --> 00:34:08,155
So I think that has been a

937
00:34:08,155 --> 00:34:10,465
model of like subscription stuff

938
00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:12,160
being mostly consumer friendly.

939
00:34:12,820 --> 00:34:14,320
Though I'd love to hear please

940
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,360
boost then if anyone disagrees and

941
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:17,650
just strongly contrary, I'd love

942
00:34:17,650 --> 00:34:18,490
to hear what you think about that.

943
00:34:18,490 --> 00:34:19,870
They're, they definitely have a bad

944
00:34:19,870 --> 00:34:22,414
side of their company, but they like,

945
00:34:22,414 --> 00:34:24,934
largely, I think that worked, but then

946
00:34:24,934 --> 00:34:27,214
you also have a lot of like subscription

947
00:34:27,214 --> 00:34:29,704
models where it's just like, Hey, you

948
00:34:29,704 --> 00:34:33,304
know, we hacked together some simple

949
00:34:33,754 --> 00:34:36,604
tool on a website and we're charging

950
00:34:36,604 --> 00:34:40,534
you $15 per user until the end of time.

951
00:34:41,464 --> 00:34:44,284
And it's just like a product that

952
00:34:44,704 --> 00:34:46,774
arguably doesn't add that much value.

953
00:34:46,954 --> 00:34:49,024
Like, like something where it's like

954
00:34:49,054 --> 00:34:51,274
this solved a problem for somebody.

955
00:34:51,334 --> 00:34:55,204
And so they went to this website, signed

956
00:34:55,204 --> 00:34:57,544
up for this service, started using it

957
00:34:57,544 --> 00:35:02,284
for $25 a month, because in that moment

958
00:35:02,284 --> 00:35:03,934
they needed to solve a problem and.

959
00:35:05,179 --> 00:35:07,159
$25 a month was totally worth it.

960
00:35:07,369 --> 00:35:08,449
But then when they need to start

961
00:35:08,449 --> 00:35:10,609
sharing their work with their coworkers

962
00:35:10,609 --> 00:35:11,809
or their friends or whatever, then

963
00:35:11,809 --> 00:35:14,299
it starts turning into $25 a month,

964
00:35:14,329 --> 00:35:17,059
$25 a month per person, and then

965
00:35:17,059 --> 00:35:20,119
that starts to get like super, super

966
00:35:20,119 --> 00:35:23,239
cost prohibitive, and that's where it

967
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,489
can become very consumer unfriendly.

968
00:35:26,014 --> 00:35:29,254
And then once you just normalize paying

969
00:35:29,254 --> 00:35:32,554
monthly fees for everything, we do kind of

970
00:35:32,554 --> 00:35:36,574
have this environment of just tons of bad.

971
00:35:37,744 --> 00:35:39,544
LAME software as a service

972
00:35:39,544 --> 00:35:40,684
that's way overpriced.

973
00:35:40,684 --> 00:35:42,964
So, I don't know, I could

974
00:35:42,964 --> 00:35:43,654
see both sides of it.

975
00:35:43,654 --> 00:35:45,214
I, I understand from a business

976
00:35:45,214 --> 00:35:47,644
perspective why businesses want to do it,

977
00:35:47,854 --> 00:35:50,554
and it, it gives you stable cash flow.

978
00:35:50,554 --> 00:35:53,494
It incentivizes you, it can incentivize

979
00:35:53,494 --> 00:35:57,280
you to keep cranking out, improvements

980
00:35:57,340 --> 00:36:01,510
to the product, but you know, it, it can

981
00:36:01,510 --> 00:36:03,945
also go terribly wrong and just, you know.

982
00:36:04,915 --> 00:36:07,075
Lead to a lot of crappy

983
00:36:07,075 --> 00:36:09,415
products that are overpriced.

984
00:36:09,415 --> 00:36:11,455
So I, I don't know.

985
00:36:11,682 --> 00:36:12,792
it just really depends on

986
00:36:12,792 --> 00:36:13,992
the company and the product.

987
00:36:15,582 --> 00:36:16,392
I'm gonna pause this

988
00:36:16,392 --> 00:36:17,652
for a moment to cough.

989
00:36:20,442 --> 00:36:20,772
Okay.

990
00:36:20,772 --> 00:36:22,422
So, first of all, I want to.

991
00:36:23,577 --> 00:36:26,277
Refer people to a YouTube video.

992
00:36:26,332 --> 00:36:26,992
Really cool.

993
00:36:27,027 --> 00:36:28,767
It's by a designer who,

994
00:36:28,917 --> 00:36:30,387
who wrote this video.

995
00:36:30,387 --> 00:36:32,667
It's like a love letter or like a, I'm

996
00:36:32,667 --> 00:36:34,557
breaking up with you, Adobe kind of

997
00:36:34,557 --> 00:36:37,317
video and how he switched to Linux and

998
00:36:37,317 --> 00:36:39,297
he's replaced it with other software.

999
00:36:39,627 --> 00:36:40,587
But, it's really cool.

1000
00:36:40,587 --> 00:36:43,047
It's like very stylistic and fun to watch.

1001
00:36:43,047 --> 00:36:44,127
I highly recommend it.

1002
00:36:44,307 --> 00:36:45,627
We should get 'em on the pod sometime.

1003
00:36:45,687 --> 00:36:46,647
We should do that.

1004
00:36:47,090 --> 00:36:48,770
so I'll put that in the show notes.

1005
00:36:48,830 --> 00:36:50,270
I, I recommend checking it out,

1006
00:36:50,690 --> 00:36:53,742
but, in regards to the, pay upfront

1007
00:36:53,742 --> 00:36:55,902
model versus ongoing subscription,

1008
00:36:56,292 --> 00:36:58,272
I think it's really important that

1009
00:36:58,272 --> 00:37:00,972
companies make it explicit what you

1010
00:37:00,972 --> 00:37:02,982
are getting when you pay for software.

1011
00:37:03,342 --> 00:37:06,492
So, for example, you pay a a certain

1012
00:37:06,492 --> 00:37:09,912
amount and it covers a certain

1013
00:37:09,912 --> 00:37:11,892
period of time, and during that

1014
00:37:11,892 --> 00:37:13,452
period of time, you could be expected

1015
00:37:13,452 --> 00:37:15,792
to get security updates or full

1016
00:37:15,792 --> 00:37:17,172
feature updates or whatever, right?

1017
00:37:17,172 --> 00:37:17,262
Like.

1018
00:37:18,162 --> 00:37:19,902
They're not just, it's not sort of

1019
00:37:19,902 --> 00:37:21,492
nebulous and unknown of what you're

1020
00:37:21,492 --> 00:37:23,142
getting in return for your money.

1021
00:37:23,472 --> 00:37:24,395
some examples of this

1022
00:37:24,395 --> 00:37:25,955
are Red Hat and Ubuntu.

1023
00:37:26,375 --> 00:37:29,432
When you pay for a, a license to

1024
00:37:29,432 --> 00:37:31,382
either of those, you are getting

1025
00:37:31,532 --> 00:37:34,142
support and software updates

1026
00:37:34,142 --> 00:37:36,032
for, a certain amount of time.

1027
00:37:36,032 --> 00:37:37,202
I can't remember off the top of my head.

1028
00:37:37,202 --> 00:37:38,612
It might be like five years

1029
00:37:38,612 --> 00:37:39,512
or something like that.

1030
00:37:39,752 --> 00:37:41,882
But basically you are guaranteed

1031
00:37:41,882 --> 00:37:42,932
to get security patches.

1032
00:37:43,764 --> 00:37:46,704
or excuse me, feature patches including,

1033
00:37:46,884 --> 00:37:49,404
uh, new features for a certain amount

1034
00:37:49,404 --> 00:37:52,044
of time, and then security patches for

1035
00:37:52,044 --> 00:37:54,384
an even more extended time after that.

1036
00:37:54,384 --> 00:37:55,824
So like, maybe it's five years

1037
00:37:55,824 --> 00:37:56,934
and 10 years respectively.

1038
00:37:56,934 --> 00:37:58,434
I don't know off the top of my head.

1039
00:37:58,434 --> 00:38:01,494
But, the idea is that you are paying this

1040
00:38:01,494 --> 00:38:03,894
amount of money and you are gonna get this

1041
00:38:03,894 --> 00:38:05,904
kind of support over this period of time.

1042
00:38:06,234 --> 00:38:07,254
And I think that's really

1043
00:38:07,254 --> 00:38:09,024
important because you.

1044
00:38:09,714 --> 00:38:11,934
A, you know, how the company is making

1045
00:38:11,934 --> 00:38:14,197
their money and what kind of, work they're

1046
00:38:14,197 --> 00:38:16,207
expected to do in exchange for that.

1047
00:38:16,207 --> 00:38:18,367
And, and B, you can be expected

1048
00:38:18,367 --> 00:38:20,857
to know when you need to upgrade

1049
00:38:20,857 --> 00:38:22,627
and what that's gonna cost you.

1050
00:38:23,124 --> 00:38:24,744
when you were talking about the, the

1051
00:38:24,744 --> 00:38:27,324
subscription fee on websites, these.

1052
00:38:27,529 --> 00:38:29,569
proliferated SaaS software as a

1053
00:38:29,569 --> 00:38:30,979
service sites that just, you know,

1054
00:38:30,979 --> 00:38:32,569
everybody's expected to be signing

1055
00:38:32,569 --> 00:38:35,539
up for $5 here, $10 there, $15 there

1056
00:38:36,139 --> 00:38:38,569
for dozens and dozens of services.

1057
00:38:39,049 --> 00:38:41,479
It, it reminds me that I want to talk

1058
00:38:41,479 --> 00:38:43,699
about something called dark patterns,

1059
00:38:43,865 --> 00:38:46,022
or also known as deceptive patterns.

1060
00:38:46,382 --> 00:38:50,552
And these are, they are tricks used

1061
00:38:50,552 --> 00:38:52,502
by apps and websites that make you

1062
00:38:52,502 --> 00:38:54,062
do things that you didn't mean to do.

1063
00:38:54,437 --> 00:38:56,507
Like buying or signing up for something.

1064
00:38:56,507 --> 00:38:58,907
For example, trick wording,

1065
00:38:59,147 --> 00:39:01,337
sneaking obstruction.

1066
00:39:01,337 --> 00:39:03,107
These are terms that we'll talk about,

1067
00:39:03,107 --> 00:39:06,227
but you, you are all familiar with this,

1068
00:39:06,257 --> 00:39:08,207
and even if you don't know this, this

1069
00:39:08,207 --> 00:39:10,277
term, deceptive patterns or dark patterns.

1070
00:39:10,637 --> 00:39:12,437
This would be things like, I go to

1071
00:39:12,437 --> 00:39:14,957
sign up for a site and it's like $2

1072
00:39:14,957 --> 00:39:17,777
a month, and then in tiny, tiny light

1073
00:39:17,777 --> 00:39:19,487
print at the very bottom it says.

1074
00:39:20,012 --> 00:39:21,542
For the first month, and then

1075
00:39:21,542 --> 00:39:22,832
after that they start billing you

1076
00:39:22,832 --> 00:39:24,902
reoccurring at $20 a month, right?

1077
00:39:25,145 --> 00:39:26,099
I think most of us have

1078
00:39:26,099 --> 00:39:27,449
experienced something like that.

1079
00:39:27,689 --> 00:39:29,249
You, you sign up for something that's

1080
00:39:29,249 --> 00:39:31,319
$2 a month and then suddenly you

1081
00:39:31,319 --> 00:39:32,519
notice a few months later they've

1082
00:39:32,519 --> 00:39:34,769
been hitting you for 10 times that

1083
00:39:34,769 --> 00:39:36,299
amount for the past few months.

1084
00:39:36,299 --> 00:39:37,619
This is a incredibly

1085
00:39:37,619 --> 00:39:39,539
deceptive trick and should be.

1086
00:39:40,349 --> 00:39:42,292
Looked, watched out for, what are,

1087
00:39:42,292 --> 00:39:44,452
what are some other dark patterns

1088
00:39:44,452 --> 00:39:45,592
that you've experienced, Steven?

1089
00:39:45,592 --> 00:39:46,192
Well, I'll tell you one.

1090
00:39:46,192 --> 00:39:47,242
I'll call 'em out by name.

1091
00:39:47,242 --> 00:39:48,922
The company is called ClassPass.

1092
00:39:48,952 --> 00:39:50,572
I tried them out recently.

1093
00:39:50,895 --> 00:39:53,209
and, it's like a thing where you can, it's

1094
00:39:53,209 --> 00:39:54,649
it like any city you're in, you can kind

1095
00:39:54,649 --> 00:39:58,039
of like book classes, like gym classes,

1096
00:39:58,039 --> 00:39:59,434
fitness classes, these kinds of things.

1097
00:40:00,004 --> 00:40:01,114
So I was trying out, so I was doing a

1098
00:40:01,114 --> 00:40:03,544
bit of traveling and so wanted to be

1099
00:40:03,544 --> 00:40:04,714
able to use some of that stuff remotely.

1100
00:40:04,714 --> 00:40:06,364
So I tried it out, bought some credits.

1101
00:40:06,369 --> 00:40:07,324
It, it was cool.

1102
00:40:07,324 --> 00:40:09,304
I mean, the service was fine and useful,

1103
00:40:09,464 --> 00:40:11,270
but I just wasn't using it as much.

1104
00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:13,100
Got a dedicated gym I go to now,

1105
00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:15,380
so was decided to cancel it.

1106
00:40:15,470 --> 00:40:16,940
Oh my God.

1107
00:40:16,940 --> 00:40:19,100
Canceling this thing was,

1108
00:40:19,220 --> 00:40:21,530
I was like losing my mind.

1109
00:40:21,740 --> 00:40:23,390
So, you know, they give you the whole

1110
00:40:23,390 --> 00:40:24,770
screen, you know, you, you try to

1111
00:40:24,770 --> 00:40:26,270
cancel the membership and it's like.

1112
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,100
But wait, do you really want to cancel?

1113
00:40:28,100 --> 00:40:29,030
You're gonna lose out on

1114
00:40:29,030 --> 00:40:30,110
all these great perks.

1115
00:40:30,140 --> 00:40:32,450
And then down at the bottom of the page,

1116
00:40:32,750 --> 00:40:34,100
a lot of times you may be familiar,

1117
00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:36,100
like, in design you'll have like a

1118
00:40:36,100 --> 00:40:38,140
primary button and a secondary button.

1119
00:40:38,290 --> 00:40:39,370
Here I'll just do like UI

1120
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,810
design, primary secondary button.

1121
00:40:43,810 --> 00:40:45,220
Lemme see if I can pull up an example

1122
00:40:45,220 --> 00:40:46,600
for those watching on the video.

1123
00:40:46,930 --> 00:40:48,910
It's like visual hierarchy.

1124
00:40:48,910 --> 00:40:50,050
So like here on the screen

1125
00:40:50,050 --> 00:40:51,430
right here, we have like.

1126
00:40:52,225 --> 00:40:54,265
An example image that's like the

1127
00:40:54,265 --> 00:40:56,239
primary button is like, you know,

1128
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,069
maybe the primary button is like

1129
00:40:58,699 --> 00:41:00,619
dark blue and filled in, and then the

1130
00:41:00,619 --> 00:41:02,659
secondary button is like a blue outline.

1131
00:41:02,899 --> 00:41:04,099
Or maybe you have a button that

1132
00:41:04,099 --> 00:41:05,929
has like an negative connotation

1133
00:41:05,929 --> 00:41:06,599
or something like that.

1134
00:41:07,264 --> 00:41:09,770
And it might be like, surrounded in a red

1135
00:41:09,770 --> 00:41:11,990
outline to be like, okay, the big, the big

1136
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:15,110
blue, solid blue button is the good button

1137
00:41:15,290 --> 00:41:18,470
and the, the bad action is the red button.

1138
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,260
So what they do is they flip it

1139
00:41:21,380 --> 00:41:23,210
in the user's mind, knowing that

1140
00:41:23,210 --> 00:41:25,910
intuitively you want to cancel it.

1141
00:41:25,910 --> 00:41:28,610
So, but your mind also intuitively

1142
00:41:28,610 --> 00:41:30,320
wants to tap on the big blue button.

1143
00:41:30,665 --> 00:41:32,885
So they make the big blue glut and

1144
00:41:32,885 --> 00:41:34,835
say, nevermind, I'd like to keep

1145
00:41:34,835 --> 00:41:36,155
my membership, and they make the

1146
00:41:36,155 --> 00:41:38,045
red button cancel my membership.

1147
00:41:39,005 --> 00:41:40,205
Then they show you another

1148
00:41:40,205 --> 00:41:41,495
screen that's the same thing.

1149
00:41:41,495 --> 00:41:42,725
It's like, are you really,

1150
00:41:42,725 --> 00:41:43,960
really sure you want to cancel?

1151
00:41:44,690 --> 00:41:45,740
What about these perks?

1152
00:41:45,740 --> 00:41:47,780
Da, da, da, and they do the same thing.

1153
00:41:48,110 --> 00:41:49,070
The big blue button.

1154
00:41:49,070 --> 00:41:50,600
The primary button is keep it,

1155
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,560
and the negative button is cancel.

1156
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,600
Then they show you the same screen

1157
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,360
a third time with the same trick,

1158
00:41:57,420 --> 00:41:59,640
with the primary button to keep it

1159
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,320
and the negative button to cancel it.

1160
00:42:01,710 --> 00:42:03,300
Then they show you the screen

1161
00:42:03,330 --> 00:42:06,420
a fourth time and they flip

1162
00:42:06,420 --> 00:42:08,160
the order of the buttons.

1163
00:42:08,370 --> 00:42:09,960
They're like, okay, we understand you

1164
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,510
really want to cancel, and they change.

1165
00:42:13,170 --> 00:42:15,330
The they SWP swap the order of the

1166
00:42:15,330 --> 00:42:17,580
buttons so that the cancel button

1167
00:42:17,580 --> 00:42:20,190
is now the primary button and the

1168
00:42:20,190 --> 00:42:21,960
negative button is the keep button.

1169
00:42:22,170 --> 00:42:24,300
And they do that because once you learn

1170
00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:26,070
that the cancel button is red, you have to

1171
00:42:26,070 --> 00:42:28,200
tap through the screen so many times that

1172
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,000
you're gonna accidentally do the keep one.

1173
00:42:30,750 --> 00:42:33,420
And there was like three or four other

1174
00:42:33,420 --> 00:42:35,760
steps I had to go through after that.

1175
00:42:35,970 --> 00:42:37,470
So it was the worst cancellation.

1176
00:42:37,740 --> 00:42:39,480
But that is an example of a dark pattern.

1177
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:40,650
You're just trying to cancel your service.

1178
00:42:41,115 --> 00:42:42,525
And I actually thought the product

1179
00:42:42,525 --> 00:42:44,325
was good and I would've, I would've

1180
00:42:44,325 --> 00:42:46,695
actually vouched very well for ClassPass.

1181
00:42:46,695 --> 00:42:48,255
I mean, I thought the product itself

1182
00:42:48,255 --> 00:42:50,955
was as advertised and was good, but

1183
00:42:51,855 --> 00:42:53,775
now, now I'm here, uh, trashing them

1184
00:42:53,775 --> 00:42:55,695
on the pod because they put a dark

1185
00:42:55,695 --> 00:42:57,765
pattern in their cancellation flow.

1186
00:42:58,695 --> 00:42:59,745
That is shameful.

1187
00:42:59,805 --> 00:43:01,425
That is just terrible.

1188
00:43:01,795 --> 00:43:03,235
I'm looking here at the

1189
00:43:03,415 --> 00:43:05,095
types of deceptive patterns.

1190
00:43:05,305 --> 00:43:06,865
We'll, we'll list this, we'll,

1191
00:43:06,865 --> 00:43:07,525
we'll put the link in the

1192
00:43:07,525 --> 00:43:09,385
show notes, but there's, um.

1193
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,190
Maybe 15 of them listed here.

1194
00:43:12,190 --> 00:43:13,930
And just as you were talking, I

1195
00:43:13,930 --> 00:43:17,380
think I, I pointed out maybe four

1196
00:43:17,380 --> 00:43:18,980
of them that they committed that

1197
00:43:18,980 --> 00:43:20,990
they, uh, uh, violated of these.

1198
00:43:20,990 --> 00:43:24,470
So, for example, nagging, the user

1199
00:43:24,470 --> 00:43:25,850
tries to do something, but they are

1200
00:43:25,850 --> 00:43:27,440
persistently interrupted by requests

1201
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:28,760
to do something else that may not be

1202
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,034
in their best interests, obstruction.

1203
00:43:31,034 --> 00:43:32,624
The user is faced with barriers or

1204
00:43:32,624 --> 00:43:34,454
hurdles, making it hard for them to

1205
00:43:34,454 --> 00:43:36,404
complete their task or access information.

1206
00:43:36,959 --> 00:43:38,099
Hard to cancel.

1207
00:43:38,399 --> 00:43:40,109
The user finds it easy to sign up

1208
00:43:40,109 --> 00:43:41,909
or subscribe, but when they want

1209
00:43:41,909 --> 00:43:43,559
to cancel, they find it very hard.

1210
00:43:44,069 --> 00:43:45,809
So there's a whole bunch of these,

1211
00:43:47,819 --> 00:43:50,279
but I, I would like to ask the, the

1212
00:43:50,279 --> 00:43:53,339
listeners, take a look at this list

1213
00:43:53,339 --> 00:43:56,819
right here and Boost in and Telus.

1214
00:43:56,849 --> 00:43:58,979
Have you experienced any of these?

1215
00:43:59,459 --> 00:44:01,019
Are there any companies that you want

1216
00:44:01,019 --> 00:44:03,599
to publicly shame or maybe just, you

1217
00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:06,359
know, anonymously shame and vent about.

1218
00:44:06,644 --> 00:44:07,784
The dark patterns that,

1219
00:44:07,784 --> 00:44:08,924
that you've experienced.

1220
00:44:09,044 --> 00:44:10,634
Maybe you, when you were signing up,

1221
00:44:10,634 --> 00:44:12,224
maybe you were tricked into signing up.

1222
00:44:12,404 --> 00:44:14,384
Maybe you were billed for something

1223
00:44:14,384 --> 00:44:16,124
that you weren't expecting.

1224
00:44:16,214 --> 00:44:17,534
Maybe it was hard to cancel,

1225
00:44:17,534 --> 00:44:19,094
like Steven was just describing.

1226
00:44:19,454 --> 00:44:21,944
So let us know and, uh, watch out.

1227
00:44:21,944 --> 00:44:24,224
For companies like this, these are

1228
00:44:24,524 --> 00:44:28,560
highly unethical and, to me it's a. It's

1229
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,830
a red flag on the company as a whole.

1230
00:44:32,070 --> 00:44:33,510
You know, Steven, you mentioned that,

1231
00:44:33,510 --> 00:44:35,760
that you thought ClassPass had a decent

1232
00:44:35,820 --> 00:44:39,000
product, but if a company is doing

1233
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,540
these kinds of practices, I think

1234
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:42,920
you might wanna steer clear of 'em.

1235
00:44:44,420 --> 00:44:45,590
Yeah, exactly.

1236
00:44:45,590 --> 00:44:46,940
And uh, that's the thing.

1237
00:44:46,940 --> 00:44:48,170
Once you have a company, they're

1238
00:44:48,170 --> 00:44:51,315
incentivized to grow and, Y Yeah.

1239
00:44:51,675 --> 00:44:53,235
Not everybody does it ethically.

1240
00:44:54,015 --> 00:44:56,055
I see you've pulled up the hull of shame.

1241
00:44:56,145 --> 00:44:58,245
So this, this, this website that we're

1242
00:44:58,245 --> 00:45:00,645
referring to, deceptive patterns has

1243
00:45:00,705 --> 00:45:02,685
a hull of shame and they go through

1244
00:45:02,685 --> 00:45:03,975
and, and check out some of them.

1245
00:45:03,975 --> 00:45:05,625
We're not gonna read 'em here today, but,

1246
00:45:05,802 --> 00:45:07,482
they've got a, a series of companies,

1247
00:45:07,482 --> 00:45:08,982
a lot of 'em, you'll recognize all the

1248
00:45:08,982 --> 00:45:11,442
big ones, but it's, it's pretty great.

1249
00:45:15,087 --> 00:45:17,067
Well, bringing it back to our

1250
00:45:17,127 --> 00:45:18,897
main topic and, and how this

1251
00:45:18,897 --> 00:45:21,297
fits into the bigger picture, you

1252
00:45:21,297 --> 00:45:22,887
wanna look out for dark patterns.

1253
00:45:22,887 --> 00:45:24,897
Obviously avoid companies that,

1254
00:45:24,957 --> 00:45:26,700
that do these, keep an eye

1255
00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:28,350
out for the business model.

1256
00:45:28,410 --> 00:45:29,970
You know, if you are not paying,

1257
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:31,710
how are they making money?

1258
00:45:31,710 --> 00:45:32,880
You want to, you wanna be asking

1259
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:34,020
yourself that when you're choosing

1260
00:45:34,020 --> 00:45:36,570
your software, and then if you

1261
00:45:36,630 --> 00:45:38,160
determine how they're making money.

1262
00:45:38,625 --> 00:45:39,945
Is it something you're comfortable with?

1263
00:45:39,945 --> 00:45:40,935
Is it ethical?

1264
00:45:41,055 --> 00:45:42,555
Is it respecting your

1265
00:45:42,555 --> 00:45:43,725
data and your privacy?

1266
00:45:44,039 --> 00:45:44,969
again, if you ever had to

1267
00:45:44,969 --> 00:45:47,159
leave, would it be easy or would

1268
00:45:47,159 --> 00:45:48,449
they make it really difficult?

1269
00:45:48,989 --> 00:45:52,229
So this is kind of a, an addendum

1270
00:45:52,409 --> 00:45:54,179
episode to our previous topic

1271
00:45:54,179 --> 00:45:55,859
about how to choose software.

1272
00:45:56,082 --> 00:45:58,317
but I think there's enough here that I

1273
00:45:58,317 --> 00:46:00,132
wanted to give it its own episode and

1274
00:46:00,132 --> 00:46:01,542
get into the real nitty gritty of, of

1275
00:46:01,542 --> 00:46:03,792
these different software business models.

1276
00:46:04,535 --> 00:46:05,285
Alright everybody.

1277
00:46:05,285 --> 00:46:05,795
Thanks a lot.

1278
00:46:05,795 --> 00:46:06,605
We'll see you next time.

1279
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:07,420
All right.

1280
00:46:07,420 --> 00:46:08,020
Catch you later.

1281
00:46:09,684 --> 00:46:10,824
Hey, thanks for listening.

1282
00:46:10,964 --> 00:46:12,334
I hope you enjoyed this episode.

1283
00:46:12,604 --> 00:46:13,734
If you want to learn more about

1284
00:46:13,734 --> 00:46:15,434
anything that we discussed, you can

1285
00:46:15,434 --> 00:46:17,194
look for links in the show notes

1286
00:46:17,394 --> 00:46:18,694
that should be in your podcast

1287
00:46:18,704 --> 00:46:21,474
player, or you can go to atlbitlab.

1288
00:46:21,474 --> 00:46:23,214
com slash podcast.

1289
00:46:23,814 --> 00:46:25,134
On a final note, if you found

1290
00:46:25,134 --> 00:46:26,924
this information useful and you

1291
00:46:26,924 --> 00:46:28,654
want to help support us, you can

1292
00:46:28,654 --> 00:46:30,644
always send us a tip in Bitcoin.

1293
00:46:31,024 --> 00:46:32,854
Your support really helps us so that we

1294
00:46:32,854 --> 00:46:34,984
can keep bringing you content like this.

1295
00:46:35,314 --> 00:46:35,874
All right.

1296
00:46:35,954 --> 00:46:36,604
Catch you later.